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 AnthonyXYZ wrote:
10 wounds specifically would be way too big a nerf and doesn't feel like the logical step to fix him.

If the conclusion was to increase wounds, it would perhaps make sense to jump it all the way up to something like 15, rather than 10? I don't think it would be that outrageous from a fluff perspective too.

But really, points cost adjustment makes more sense.

I think 12 would be more reasonable. He's already got better armour and invulnerable defences than the Swarmlord, I don't think he needs more wounds as well.

Guilliman is to 8th what the Wraithknight is to 7th. Grossly under costed. (Eldar is one of my 4 armies)

I have a nid army and I love my swarm lord. It usually lasts till about 3rd turn or end of game so far.
1. Deploy it last and out of sight if you can
2. Lots of big nasty things are going to be closer and more imminently threatening than the swarm lord.
3. never leave your tyrant guard behind.
4. Give the swarm lord 6+ feel no pain trait
5. Cast catalyst on the tyrant guard if you think the swarm lord is going to get shot
Works out to be 5+ invulnerable, 6+ feel no pain, 2+ passing off damage and finally 5+ feel no pain in the guard. It's a butt load of dice rolling and work but it all helps keep the swarm lord around just a little longer.

Also playing on a table with loads of terrain is nice.

In the end of the day I would give up the extra wounds on the swarm lord to drop it to 9 and still pay the same price. Hell I would pay more points. Because the level of protection that would provide would be worth it.

I think to field him you have to field his bodyguard squad, which I'd assume would have some sort of LOS ability.

Fluffy and more balanced. And suitably costed.

 Deepeyes wrote:
Guilliman is to 8th what the Wraithknight is to 7th. Grossly under costed. (Eldar is one of my 4 armies)

I have a nid army and I love my swarm lord. It usually lasts till about 3rd turn or end of game so far.
1. Deploy it last and out of sight if you can
2. Lots of big nasty things are going to be closer and more imminently threatening than the swarm lord.
3. never leave your tyrant guard behind.
4. Give the swarm lord 6+ feel no pain trait
5. Cast catalyst on the tyrant guard if you think the swarm lord is going to get shot
Works out to be 5+ invulnerable, 6+ feel no pain, 2+ passing off damage and finally 5+ feel no pain in the guard. It's a butt load of dice rolling and work but it all helps keep the swarm lord around just a little longer.

Also playing on a table with loads of terrain is nice.

In the end of the day I would give up the extra wounds on the swarm lord to drop it to 9 and still pay the same price. Hell I would pay more points. Because the level of protection that would provide would be worth it.

There are multiple ways they could fix this, yet the main problem is that we've just had a marine codex and they didnt fix it. I can only pray they adjust in the next indexes

 Deepeyes wrote:
Guilliman is to 8th what the Wraithknight is to 7th. Grossly under costed. (Eldar is one of my 4 armies)

I have a nid army and I love my swarm lord. It usually lasts till about 3rd turn or end of game so far.
1. Deploy it last and out of sight if you can
2. Lots of big nasty things are going to be closer and more imminently threatening than the swarm lord.
3. never leave your tyrant guard behind.
4. Give the swarm lord 6+ feel no pain trait
5. Cast catalyst on the tyrant guard if you think the swarm lord is going to get shot
Works out to be 5+ invulnerable, 6+ feel no pain, 2+ passing off damage and finally 5+ feel no pain in the guard. It's a butt load of dice rolling and work but it all helps keep the swarm lord around just a little longer.

Also playing on a table with loads of terrain is nice.

In the end of the day I would give up the extra wounds on the swarm lord to drop it to 9 and still pay the same price. Hell I would pay more points. Because the level of protection that would provide would be worth it.

Uhhh - Swarmlord should be 9 wounds and immune to being shot at too. I see 0 reason why he shouldn't be - he doesn't even have a gun. As he is currently - he's unplayable. For his price you are better off just taking another trygon and more steelers.

Just think how good he would be then if he could literally allow a double move for any unit within 6 inches every turn!

I'm not sure he should be 10 wounds, but he does need a bit of changing.

IF the idea behind him is that he is a tactical genius and that as a primarch he is also a great warrior I think it would be best to tone down his durability and his offense.

1.) Drop his invul save to a 4++
2.) Remove the get back up mechanic
3.) Drop his shooting weapon to S4, or 1 damage. His gun is better than an assault cannon, by a lot.
4.)Remove the hand of domination for close combat
5.) make his sword ap -3, and 2 damage not 3 damage, remove the ability to deal D3 additional mortal wounds.

If you think the enemy should be able to shoot Bobby G from a far for being a Primarch that stands out, then Bobby G's aura should be global since his friends should also be able to make him out.

That simply really.

I agree with Guilliman having his combat stats toned down.

He's basically in Darth Vader mode- a shell of his former self physically- and he was never one of the more martial Primarchs to begin with.

He IS a Primarch, thus he should be able to deal with captains, most monstrous Creatures etc, but he needs to lose the get-up mechanic and I think he should get trounced by most of the biggest baddest dudes in 40k (Abaddon, Swarmlord, other Primarchs etc).

I think alot of the complaints about "lasting past turn 1/2" im seeing here are down to poor amounts of terrain on tables. If you dont have a number of LoS blocking terrain pieces in addition to many areas of cover and scatter terrain im not sure the game works properly anyway.. taking this in mind, I think gulliman does need to be 10w or have his defensive capabilities drastically toned down. The trouble with simply bumping up his price makes games come down to "can you kill the primarch in time" which are less fun for everyone involved.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
He's basically in Darth Vader mode- a shell of his former self physically-.

Someone needs to model Guiliman in all black with a cape and glowing red sword surrounded by white armoured Space Marines....like NOW.



...Seriously, this needs to be a thing

I think - being reasonable because dispite what you think Guillemin isn't autowin. IG lists stomp him - harlequin lists stomp him. Lets just remove his come back to life mechanic. It's not at all needed and I do think armies that break his lines and engage him with the few remaining units they have left - should be rewarded with a slayed primarch.

If you look at his combat stats - he is only a tad better than kaldor draigo.That seems about right to me - ones a grand master - ones a primarch. Nerfing his melle ability is just pandering at this point.

Yes. Far less durable iconic faction buffing units are able to be targeted. His character exception is a bridge too far for me. Either buff the others or remove his immunity.

I doubt GW will do anything about him until he becomes a real problem on the tournament scene. They've shown that they will make adjustments for issues with extreme balance abuse and things that don't promote the way they want the game to be played. Just because he is a very powerful model isn't enough for them to step in; especially since it is their poster model and character for all of 8th... they want to see him on the table top so they are going to push his rules.
He is definitely strong when you allow his entire army to bubble up around him and blast you every turn from cover. But if you have LoS blocking terrain so you can hide important models and objectives then he is not a problem. His army will have to split up and his force multiplier won't be as bad.
I'll agree that he has abilities that probably shouldn't be in the game because it is so hard to balance correctly, this is what they've done and I doubt it will change outside of point cost until he is the best and one of the only options to take at the competitive level.

The problem is that it's far too easy to screen units in Imperium.

Guilliman folds like a house of cards to sustained fire. Celestine has a better come-back-to-life ability.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Killermonkey wrote:
I doubt GW will do anything about him until he becomes a real problem on the tournament scene.

This. He hasn't proven to be a problem yet.

There are multiple ways they could fix this, yet the main problem is that we've just had a marine codex and they didnt fix it. I can only pray they adjust in the next indexes.

Lowest profile way for GW to fix him now, without messing around with the codex, would be to errata the main rulebook so that the prohibition against shooting characters with 9 or fewer wounds does not apply to Lords of War "due to their sheer size." That change wouldn't mess up many other characters, if any.

Here's a question for everyone. I haven't played against Guilliman much yet, but he seems like the sort of unit that has to get into melee to really be worth it, or else sit back and buff devastator squads. Devastators are easy enough to kill, and Guilliman seems pretty easy to kite. Is it not a viable tactic to simply kill his devastator pals and then kite him all game?

Having a hard-to-kill buffer unit whose presence acts as a sort of area denial doesn't seem like a terrible way to represent a primarch mechanically, but maybe the innate mobility of my armies makes me biased.

I'm inclined to think 'give him 10w, let him ride in anything that can carry a Centurion, if he really wants to reach the enemy or direct a gunline then it's on the player to bring some Honour Guard as well'.

If enough models can get LoS on a model his size to blat it on the first turn, you've probably not got enough terrain.

No single part of the guilliman is over powered. It's the whole package put together for the cost.

Also he doesn't need to be making space marines over powered to be a problem. He is a problem if he is the defecto go to choice for everything. That's not good for a codex or army.

 Deepeyes wrote:
No single part of the guilliman is over powered. It's the whole package put together for the cost.

Also he doesn't need to be making space marines over powered to be a problem. He is a problem if he is the defecto go to choice for everything. That's not good for a codex or army.

Well considering he is only being taken, or considered a problem, in a single chapter then I don't see how this would apply. If you don't want to play ultramarines then you don't want to take him. If ultramarines are the only competitive choice then there are much further reaching problems with SM.

Guilliman is perfectly fine as he is, he doesn't need to be nerfed, he doesn't need a point increase. What needs to happen is people need to learn how to beat him as is and not to expect GW to pander to their laziness.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Here's a question for everyone. I haven't played against Guilliman much yet, but he seems like the sort of unit that has to get into melee to really be worth it, or else sit back and buff devastator squads. Devastators are easy enough to kill, and Guilliman seems pretty easy to kite. Is it not a viable tactic to simply kill his devastator pals and then kite him all game?

This. I haven't lost to G-man yet. And index-BA are hardly powerful. If you kill the dudes he buffs, and then leave him in the dust, he's just a 360 point table decoration to get 3 cp.

 Deepeyes wrote:
No single part of the guilliman is over powered. It's the whole package put together for the cost.

Also he doesn't need to be making space marines over powered to be a problem. He is a problem if he is the defecto go to choice for everything. That's not good for a codex or army.

He only buffs Ultramarines with his reroll all hits and wounds 6" aura. His 12" aura is reroll 1's to hit and +1 to charge rolls (Some IG players abuse that aura) I think it tells you something about space marines in general when a WAAC player would spam conscipts with guiliman instead of spam units to use his supposedly (insanely too powerful buff that 2 units combined for less cost can practically match plus fill HQ requirements at the same time). Just think about that for a second. Taking a unit and not using it to it's full potential just to take it with another unit.

So... what, people are taking Guilliman and a few Commissars and a swarm of Conscripts?

He's too many points for what he does for me to want to field in the type of Marine army I want to play and I don't want to tailor my list around him. Sure he can be annoying but I think there are better choices.

 Marmatag wrote:
The problem is that it's far too easy to screen units in Imperium.

Guilliman folds like a house of cards to sustained fire. Celestine has a better come-back-to-life ability.

Celestine also is only T3, is a far worse close combatant and non-existent ranged presence, can be killed twice in the same phase, and doesn't offer remotely close to the same level of support that Guilliman does. The two are only really comparable on the basis of value for cost, at which Guilliman blows Celestine out of the water.

Actually what bogs me is that 3++. Up it to to 5++ and i would be fine with him without other changes.
Yes 3 Lascannon Preds supported by him make treadheads cry, but even with a captain and a lt they would cause it.

So my serious question esp. @ Blacki and KurtAngle2 are your Gulliman opponent uses mixed Imperium lists, e. g. including conscript...?

I still haven´t experienced that a pure Ultramarine player has enough models to make me feel overwhelmed. Something survives to kill those lasPreds.
May be the playstyle ain´t as dirty as in your region, may be i am lacking enough games vs. UM.