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There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency to it does there?
At first I thought it might be balancing killing power vs social power with the Inquisitor being way up there and techies and commissars being on par with a marine. But that's obviously out the window with the Rogue Trader so low.

 jonolikespie wrote:
There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency to it does there?
At first I thought it might be balancing killing power vs social power with the Inquisitor being way up there and techies and commissars being on par with a marine. But that's obviously out the window with the Rogue Trader so low.

Agreed... especially considering a Rogue Trader likely has hundreds of tier 1 and at least dozens of fellow tier 2 soldiers working for him.

Keep in mind that there are Rogue Traders with hereditary Charters...

...and rogue traders who are simply vessel Captains operating on the fringes of Imperial space (and often legality).

Not sure how they're described in the background, but Tier 2 could easily be the latter.

The latter is still in charge of literally thousands of people... and well, a ship at least as big as a city. And Imperial sanction.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So a veteran gun for hire is a higher tier than a Scion? Weird

I think the important part is that Desperado was an ascension class. Alongside the Death Cult Assassin and Crusader it seems they've all made it in as tier 3 based on that.

Though I can't say I really know why, I always thought Desperado was really just a generic term for high end scum gunslinger and not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I think the important part is that Desperado was an ascension class. Alongside the Death Cult Assassin and Crusader it seems they've all made it in as tier 3 based on that.

Though I can't say I really know why, I always thought Desperado was really just a generic term for high end scum gunslinger and not all that important in the grand scheme of things.

although Death Cult Assassin is only level 2....

Agree its very wierd and presumably doens not include resources? the average Commissar has a lot less clout, influence and resources than your average Rouge Trader who will at least have a ship cabpable of interstellar travel and all that goes with it.

You'd also think in every way an Eldar Warlock would be above a basic marine, commissar, or tech priest too.
I think someone suggested it's based on gear, so crusaders (and I guess commissars) are so high because of things like power swords and storm shields and whatnot. That could explain a Rogue Trader being so low if they're expected to wear fancy cloths and a pistol on their hip, but that'd be a super weird way to set out the tiers.

I don't understand how a malnourished, cripplingly mutated hive ganger (scavvy) is a tier higher than a normal healthy ganger, trained imperial guardsman, or even a ork!

If it was a scaly I would undertsand, but a scavvy?

I'd guess the non-humans loose tier value compared to the humans just because so much of what they do will be a lot harder since the setting is mostly imperial based

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'd guess the non-humans loose tier value compared to the humans just because so much of what they do will be a lot harder since the setting is mostly imperial based

Good point. Although, IIRC, supplements will have xenos-main adventures, like the Eldar one that will come soon. Eldar stuff would rank much better than Imperial in such scenarios...

 Bobthehero wrote:
So a veteran gun for hire is a higher tier than a Scion? Weird

Not really if you realize a Desperado is probably based on Kal Jericho...and the Man With No Name.

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I'm thinking that their idea of a rogue trader isn't the ship master or actual charter holder but some officer or trade specialist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Psssst. Hey you, you need a new watch? Step into my office." As he displays his wares from under his trench coat.
Rogue trader....

Certainly a RT will hold a Warrant of Trade but who’s to say it can’t be for just a small vessel on its own or an license of a much larger family concern? It’s a big galaxy after all.

 notprop wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I'm thinking that their idea of a rogue trader isn't the ship master or actual charter holder but some officer or trade specialist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Psssst. Hey you, you need a new watch? Step into my office." As he displays his wares from under his trench coat.
Rogue trader....

Certainly a RT will hold a Warrant of Trade but who’s to say it can’t be for just a small vessel on its own or an license of a much larger family concern? It’s a big galaxy after all.

The point is "small vessel" is relative. This is 40K, even the smallest warp-capable ships(outside of ludicrously rare archaeotech accessible only to Assassins, Custodes, and top Inquisitors) have thousands of crew and weapon systems capable of levelling a city from orbit, and even the most piddly, low-grade, granted by the High Lords for saving the Ecclesiarch's favourite puppy from gout gak-tier Warrant would place a Rogue Trader well beyond anyone short of a Chapter Master or Inquisitor Lord or Planetary Governer in the theoretical social-capital rankings. Not to mention they have almost unfettered access to xenotech and archaeotech personal equipment. Rogue Traders command armies and order normal planetbound bigwigs around, have huge numbers of minions, servants, & soldiers, and the ability to travel the stars at will, I can't think of a single measure on which they'd be outweighed by the kind of character a class name like "Desperado" would suggest.

Not that this kind of oddity is surprising, there's no way they were going to create a system that could encompass everything in 40K without some of it being nonsensical.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Not that this kind of oddity is surprising, there's no way they were going to create a system that could encompass everything in 40K without some of it being nonsensical.

The key point seems to be will it have been worth trying? I hope so, but I'm not optimistic.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I'm thinking that their idea of a rogue trader isn't the ship master or actual charter holder but some officer or trade specialist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Psssst. Hey you, you need a new watch? Step into my office." As he displays his wares from under his trench coat.
Rogue trader....

Certainly a RT will hold a Warrant of Trade but who’s to say it can’t be for just a small vessel on its own or an license of a much larger family concern? It’s a big galaxy after all.

The point is "small vessel" is relative. This is 40K, even the smallest warp-capable ships(outside of ludicrously rare archaeotech accessible only to Assassins, Custodes, and top Inquisitors) have thousands of crew and weapon systems capable of levelling a city from orbit, and even the most piddly, low-grade, granted by the High Lords for saving the Ecclesiarch's favourite puppy from gout gak-tier Warrant would place a Rogue Trader well beyond anyone short of a Chapter Master or Inquisitor Lord or Planetary Governer in the theoretical social-capital rankings. Not to mention they have almost unfettered access to xenotech and archaeotech personal equipment. Rogue Traders command armies and order normal planetbound bigwigs around, have huge numbers of minions, servants, & soldiers, and the ability to travel the stars at will, I can't think of a single measure on which they'd be outweighed by the kind of character a class name like "Desperado" would suggest.

Not that this kind of oddity is surprising, there's no way they were going to create a system that could encompass everything in 40K without some of it being nonsensical.

I disagree, not everything has to be GrimdarknEpic nonsensical and OTT even in 40k. It’s a huge background and if your limiting your role playing to codex like fluff then you might as well have a investigating group of Marneus Calgar level characters to get anywhere and the chump that chose to be the Ganger/Enginseer/Joygirl gets to watch the power character pole effortlessly through the scenario.

As with any RPG the has to be a certain level of granularity to pick an interesting scene and challenging plot path.

 notprop wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 notprop wrote:

 Insurgency Walker wrote:
I'm thinking that their idea of a rogue trader isn't the ship master or actual charter holder but some officer or trade specialist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Psssst. Hey you, you need a new watch? Step into my office." As he displays his wares from under his trench coat.
Rogue trader....

Certainly a RT will hold a Warrant of Trade but who’s to say it can’t be for just a small vessel on its own or an license of a much larger family concern? It’s a big galaxy after all.

The point is "small vessel" is relative. This is 40K, even the smallest warp-capable ships(outside of ludicrously rare archaeotech accessible only to Assassins, Custodes, and top Inquisitors) have thousands of crew and weapon systems capable of levelling a city from orbit, and even the most piddly, low-grade, granted by the High Lords for saving the Ecclesiarch's favourite puppy from gout gak-tier Warrant would place a Rogue Trader well beyond anyone short of a Chapter Master or Inquisitor Lord or Planetary Governer in the theoretical social-capital rankings. Not to mention they have almost unfettered access to xenotech and archaeotech personal equipment. Rogue Traders command armies and order normal planetbound bigwigs around, have huge numbers of minions, servants, & soldiers, and the ability to travel the stars at will, I can't think of a single measure on which they'd be outweighed by the kind of character a class name like "Desperado" would suggest.

Not that this kind of oddity is surprising, there's no way they were going to create a system that could encompass everything in 40K without some of it being nonsensical.

I disagree, not everything has to be GrimdarknEpic nonsensical and OTT even in 40k. It’s a huge background and if your limiting your role playing to codex like fluff then you might as well have a investigating group of Marneus Calgar level characters to get anywhere and the chump that chose to be the Ganger/Enginseer/Joygirl gets to watch the power character pole effortlessly through the scenario.

As with any RPG the has to be a certain level of granularity to pick an interesting scene and challenging plot path.

I don't get what your point is at all, can you expand on it and explain how it relates to what I wrote?

Doesnt out there on warhanmer little vessels? Like cargo ships, small civilian transport ships for peregrines, agrarian and food transpirt, etc... I dont think even the smallest warp capable ship is a flying fortress.
But I think the tier is because the "rogue trader" wont be what we believe it is. It will probably be the apprentice/protege of a proper Rogue trader, like the inquisitorial acolyte.

I am in a session at GenCon this weekend with a few other people in my group. Can’t wait to try it out.

The tier system isn’t consistent with how I had them in my head, but we’ll see what super powers and gak some classes get when the whole thing is out.

 Galas wrote:
Doesnt out there on warhanmer little vessels? Like cargo ships, small civilian transport ships for peregrines, agrarian and food transpirt, etc... I dont think even the smallest warp capable ship is a flying fortress.
But I think the tier is because the "rogue trader" wont be what we believe it is. It will probably be the apprentice/protege of a proper Rogue trader, like the inquisitorial acolyte.

The smallest commonplace ship in the Imperial Navy is the Cobra Destroyer, which is ~1.5km long and carries ~15,000 crew. The smallest warp-capable ship depicted anywhere as being used by the Navy etc is the Viper Scout Sloop which is just under 1km long with a crew of 7.5k, and it's noted as being "...among the smallest Imperial ships capable of carrying a Warp Drive.". When you get smaller than that, you're talking about hyper-rare archeotech like the deployment vessels used by the Officio Assassinorum. Imperial ships have to be built big in order to carry a Warp Drive at all, the only small commonplace vessels are system-ships limited to sublight travel within a single solar system - even most Inquisitors have to hitch a ride on a Navy or Rogue Trader ship.

Rogue Trader ships will usually come in three flavours - fast and (relatively) small Frigate-to-Light Cruiser size ships built to transport high value perishables and small high value luxuries, which would have at least several thousand crew; armed traders roughly in the Light Cruiser-to-Battlecruiser range, which would be the kind of ships that go off into the unknown and would have several tens of thousands of crew; and ludicrously XBOXHUEG bulk freighters operating along established trade lanes(often under Chartrist Captains of the Merchant Fleet or in the employ of a Rogue Trader dynasty), like the Universe-class Mass Conveyor at 12km long, a mass of 60megatonnes, 60k crew and space for several hundred-thousand passengers. Given the sheer scales involved they don't need to be a flying fortress to have ludicrous amounts of firepower, the main armaments on even the smallest warp-ships would have a bore of several metres and be firing shells or energy blasts with a multi-kiloton yield. You could park one of those piddly wee Viper Sloops in orbit around modern day earth and wipe out a city with every broadside.

That's why it's a bit hard to buy that in a system which was supposed to be taking more factors into account than just gear and personal skill with weaponry, the person in charge of all that manpower and firepower with the right to travel the stars all by decree of the High Lords or even the Emperor Himself is a mid-tier bloke considered equivalent to a Storm Trooper and lesser than a "Desperado" whatever that is. And sure, they could just be using the term Rogue Trader to mean not-actually-a-Rogue Trader, or flunkie-of-a-Rogue Trader, but that seems a tad daft when they could crack one of the FFG RPG books and pick a half dozen different names for Rogue Trader-adjacent classes.

 Galas wrote:
Doesnt out there on warhanmer little vessels? Like cargo ships, small civilian transport ships for peregrines, agrarian and food transpirt, etc... I dont think even the smallest warp capable ship is a flying fortress.
But I think the tier is because the "rogue trader" wont be what we believe it is. It will probably be the apprentice/protege of a proper Rogue trader, like the inquisitorial acolyte.

Yes.

No one disputes that the huge warships exist, but Black Library books also have examples of smaller vessels more similar to your description.

There's no Millennium Falcon in 40K. Warp-capable ships in 40K are big.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's no Millennium Falcon in 40K. Warp-capable ships in 40K are big.

Unless the plot demands otherwise.

I don't think justifying the tier placement of Rogue Traders by references to head-canon, hypotheticals, and unprecedented (officially) ships and lore is going to be a debate winner.

Even though small warp capable ships 'could' exist, is that really a good basis on which to rank the Rogue Trader's tier? Seems very niche, given the tier system (and any system) would be designed for typical representations of a character.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's no Millennium Falcon in 40K. Warp-capable ships in 40K are big.

Unless the plot demands otherwise.

The plot once demanded backflipping, Falcon surfing Terminators.

The plot was proven wrong.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Doesnt out there on warhanmer little vessels? Like cargo ships, small civilian transport ships for peregrines, agrarian and food transpirt, etc... I dont think even the smallest warp capable ship is a flying fortress.
But I think the tier is because the "rogue trader" wont be what we believe it is. It will probably be the apprentice/protege of a proper Rogue trader, like the inquisitorial acolyte.

The smallest commonplace ship in the Imperial Navy is the Cobra Destroyer, which is ~1.5km long and carries ~15,000 crew. The smallest warp-capable ship depicted anywhere as being used by the Navy etc is the Viper Scout Sloop which is just under 1km long with a crew of 7.5k, and it's noted as being "...among the smallest Imperial ships capable of carrying a Warp Drive.". When you get smaller than that, you're talking about hyper-rare archeotech like the deployment vessels used by the Officio Assassinorum. Imperial ships have to be built big in order to carry a Warp Drive at all, the only small commonplace vessels are system-ships limited to sublight travel within a single solar system - even most Inquisitors have to hitch a ride on a Navy or Rogue Trader ship.

Rogue Trader ships will usually come in three flavours - fast and (relatively) small Frigate-to-Light Cruiser size ships built to transport high value perishables and small high value luxuries, which would have at least several thousand crew; armed traders roughly in the Light Cruiser-to-Battlecruiser range, which would be the kind of ships that go off into the unknown and would have several tens of thousands of crew; and ludicrously XBOXHUEG bulk freighters operating along established trade lanes(often under Chartrist Captains of the Merchant Fleet or in the employ of a Rogue Trader dynasty), like the Universe-class Mass Conveyor at 12km long, a mass of 60megatonnes, 60k crew and space for several hundred-thousand passengers. Given the sheer scales involved they don't need to be a flying fortress to have ludicrous amounts of firepower, the main armaments on even the smallest warp-ships would have a bore of several metres and be firing shells or energy blasts with a multi-kiloton yield. You could park one of those piddly wee Viper Sloops in orbit around modern day earth and wipe out a city with every broadside.

That's why it's a bit hard to buy that in a system which was supposed to be taking more factors into account than just gear and personal skill with weaponry, the person in charge of all that manpower and firepower with the right to travel the stars all by decree of the High Lords or even the Emperor Himself is a mid-tier bloke considered equivalent to a Storm Trooper and lesser than a "Desperado" whatever that is. And sure, they could just be using the term Rogue Trader to mean not-actually-a-Rogue Trader, or flunkie-of-a-Rogue Trader, but that seems a tad daft when they could crack one of the FFG RPG books and pick a half dozen different names for Rogue Trader-adjacent classes.

Surely though the ability to call down a battalion of Naval Armsmen at will or use your ship's lance batteries to carve your name across half a continent belong wholly within the narrative aspect of the game rather than the mechanical, dice-rolling, "once per encounter, choose one enemy within line of sight" etc level of the rules. Not only would any literal implementation of that sort of firepower into the Rogue Trader's character sheet make it very difficult for any other players to exercise their own abilities, I am sure that even the most power-mad of players would eventually lose interest in a game where every encounter might be resolved by dropping some kiloton ordinance or sitting back and sipping on a grimdark margarita while some NPCs complete the adventure for them. Having a good GM with a solid grasp of the setting should allow a Rogue Trader to throw their considerable weight around in the high-level narrative play but when assassins strike at the Governor's Palace or a poorly stored Dark Age artifact turns half of the archaeological dig team into gibbering mutants, also remind the player that their character is still a squishy human being (albeit one with a lot of unconventional heirloom gadgetry and a suspiciously extensive grasp of Xenobiology).

Gasmasked Mook wrote:


Surely though the ability to call down a battalion of Naval Armsmen at will or use your ship's lance batteries to carve your name across half a continent belong wholly within the narrative aspect of the game rather than the mechanical, dice-rolling, "once per encounter, choose one enemy within line of sight" etc level of the rules. Not only would any literal implementation of that sort of firepower into the Rogue Trader's character sheet make it very difficult for any other players to exercise their own abilities, I am sure that even the most power-mad of players would eventually lose interest in a game where every encounter might be resolved by dropping some kiloton ordinance or sitting back and sipping on a grimdark margarita while some NPCs complete the adventure for them. Having a good GM with a solid grasp of the setting should allow a Rogue Trader to throw their considerable weight around in the high-level narrative play but when assassins strike at the Governor's Palace or a poorly stored Dark Age artifact turns half of the archaeological dig team into gibbering mutants, also remind the player that their character is still a squishy human being (albeit one with a lot of unconventional heirloom gadgetry and a suspiciously extensive grasp of Xenobiology).

You make a convincing case showing that an actual Rogue Trader should be no where other than a Tier 5 character. If they wanted some version of it slumming around at tier 2 then they should have come up with some other name for it more appropriate for the 2nd cousin thrice removed youngest child of the middle son 14th in line to inherent the Warrant of Trade. In all seriousness, they should probably have divided up the iconic rogue trader over a couple of tiers similar to how the marine was done to better illustrate the capabilities and resources of the archtype at that tier. YMMV.

Gasmasked Mook wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Doesnt out there on warhanmer little vessels? Like cargo ships, small civilian transport ships for peregrines, agrarian and food transpirt, etc... I dont think even the smallest warp capable ship is a flying fortress.
But I think the tier is because the "rogue trader" wont be what we believe it is. It will probably be the apprentice/protege of a proper Rogue trader, like the inquisitorial acolyte.

The smallest commonplace ship in the Imperial Navy is the Cobra Destroyer, which is ~1.5km long and carries ~15,000 crew. The smallest warp-capable ship depicted anywhere as being used by the Navy etc is the Viper Scout Sloop which is just under 1km long with a crew of 7.5k, and it's noted as being "...among the smallest Imperial ships capable of carrying a Warp Drive.". When you get smaller than that, you're talking about hyper-rare archeotech like the deployment vessels used by the Officio Assassinorum. Imperial ships have to be built big in order to carry a Warp Drive at all, the only small commonplace vessels are system-ships limited to sublight travel within a single solar system - even most Inquisitors have to hitch a ride on a Navy or Rogue Trader ship.

Rogue Trader ships will usually come in three flavours - fast and (relatively) small Frigate-to-Light Cruiser size ships built to transport high value perishables and small high value luxuries, which would have at least several thousand crew; armed traders roughly in the Light Cruiser-to-Battlecruiser range, which would be the kind of ships that go off into the unknown and would have several tens of thousands of crew; and ludicrously XBOXHUEG bulk freighters operating along established trade lanes(often under Chartrist Captains of the Merchant Fleet or in the employ of a Rogue Trader dynasty), like the Universe-class Mass Conveyor at 12km long, a mass of 60megatonnes, 60k crew and space for several hundred-thousand passengers. Given the sheer scales involved they don't need to be a flying fortress to have ludicrous amounts of firepower, the main armaments on even the smallest warp-ships would have a bore of several metres and be firing shells or energy blasts with a multi-kiloton yield. You could park one of those piddly wee Viper Sloops in orbit around modern day earth and wipe out a city with every broadside.

That's why it's a bit hard to buy that in a system which was supposed to be taking more factors into account than just gear and personal skill with weaponry, the person in charge of all that manpower and firepower with the right to travel the stars all by decree of the High Lords or even the Emperor Himself is a mid-tier bloke considered equivalent to a Storm Trooper and lesser than a "Desperado" whatever that is. And sure, they could just be using the term Rogue Trader to mean not-actually-a-Rogue Trader, or flunkie-of-a-Rogue Trader, but that seems a tad daft when they could crack one of the FFG RPG books and pick a half dozen different names for Rogue Trader-adjacent classes.

Surely though the ability to call down a battalion of Naval Armsmen at will or use your ship's lance batteries to carve your name across half a continent belong wholly within the narrative aspect of the game rather than the mechanical, dice-rolling, "once per encounter, choose one enemy within line of sight" etc level of the rules. Not only would any literal implementation of that sort of firepower into the Rogue Trader's character sheet make it very difficult for any other players to exercise their own abilities, I am sure that even the most power-mad of players would eventually lose interest in a game where every encounter might be resolved by dropping some kiloton ordinance or sitting back and sipping on a grimdark margarita while some NPCs complete the adventure for them. Having a good GM with a solid grasp of the setting should allow a Rogue Trader to throw their considerable weight around in the high-level narrative play but when assassins strike at the Governor's Palace or a poorly stored Dark Age artifact turns half of the archaeological dig team into gibbering mutants, also remind the player that their character is still a squishy human being (albeit one with a lot of unconventional heirloom gadgetry and a suspiciously extensive grasp of Xenobiology).

But that's exactly my point, these tiers are supposedly taking more into account than just moment-to-moment reflex & skill, and the social capital and military & fiscal resources of a Rogue Trader are off the scale compared to just about everything else. Your average RT might "only" be a squishy - but reasonably competent and very well equipped - human, but they're a squishy human who can wipe out a city or deploy a small army with a single command, their wealth could well outstrip the combined wealth of the whole planet an RPG game was set on, hell some of them have oaths of fealty & aid from Space Marines they could call upon. I don't think that kind of power disparity is something that can just be handwaved away by exhorting the GM to put a bit more effort in, they'd spend more time coming up with reasons why the RT can't just fix the situations the party find themselves in than they would coming up with the situations in the first place.

I get that they wanted to have that archetype in the game, but it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's no Millennium Falcon in 40K. Warp-capable ships in 40K are big.

Unless the plot demands otherwise.

Well, let's be fair, it doesn't exist until the Rogue Trader expansion hits. Very suddenly it will at that point.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well, let's be fair, it doesn't exist until the Rogue Trader expansion hits. Very suddenly it will at that point.

That's an excellent point - I would expect the fluff from that expansion to have some very interesting background bits. I'm looking forward to it!