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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

We see the Galaxy from near omnipresence. Down on the ground, it's a very different affair.

It can be a different affair but there are basically 2 universals in the Imperium, veneration of the Emperor and Abhorance of the Alien. Human/xenos cooperation does exist but outside of certain Inquisitoral factions and powerful Rogue Traders, or battlefield nessecity, it is always illegal and ruthlessly persecuted if discovered.

One of the reasons that the FFG RPGs worked so well is that they were tightly focused in terms of scope and setting.

A free for all 40K RPG will really need a strong GM or it will a huge mess.

 schoon wrote:
Just watched the YouTube Seminar, and lots of great information.

- The big takeaway = Broad and inclusive core rulebook that gives a framework for everything, and...
- Campaign books - Adventures, Setting, and Player Options - that delve into details for specific play areas such as...
- Imperium Nihilus, Doom of the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, Death Watch, etc.
- Base game mechanic is d6 dice pools - unique system, but borrows from TORG (specifically) and others
- Combat will be brutal, and critical hits will be particularly nasty
- System will balance for gritty and epic play levels, and everywhere in between
- Psychic powers will be part of the game - high risk, high reward
- Starships and vehicles will be part of the "broad and inclusive" core framework
- Campaigns and adventures will have epic ideas - visiting the Black Library, fighting in the pits of Commorragh, meeting Primarchs, deamon princes, etc.
- There will be a beginner box, GM screen, and all the basics one would assume
- Adventure Anthology will be one of the first products
- Setting = 8th Edition storyline and all that entails

re the bolded bits; this sort of thing is exactly why some of us were reticent about the tonal shift of 8th. The reason the RPGs were great was that they went beneath the top-line "big damn heroes" stuff in the same way as the better BL novels and specialist games did, they helped retain and reinforce 40K's proper tone and themes, they were a place to escape the uncritically heroic bombast that came to characterise the main studio's writing in recent years.

Primarchs and the Black Library, jeezo

 Yodhrin wrote:

 schoon wrote:
Just watched the YouTube Seminar, and lots of great information.

- The big takeaway = Broad and inclusive core rulebook that gives a framework for everything, and...
- Campaign books - Adventures, Setting, and Player Options - that delve into details for specific play areas such as...
- Imperium Nihilus, Doom of the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, Death Watch, etc.
- Base game mechanic is d6 dice pools - unique system, but borrows from TORG (specifically) and others
- Combat will be brutal, and critical hits will be particularly nasty
- System will balance for gritty and epic play levels, and everywhere in between
- Psychic powers will be part of the game - high risk, high reward
- Starships and vehicles will be part of the "broad and inclusive" core framework
- Campaigns and adventures will have epic ideas - visiting the Black Library, fighting in the pits of Commorragh, meeting Primarchs, deamon princes, etc.
- There will be a beginner box, GM screen, and all the basics one would assume
- Adventure Anthology will be one of the first products
- Setting = 8th Edition storyline and all that entails

re the bolded bits; this sort of thing is exactly why some of us were reticent about the tonal shift of 8th. The reason the RPGs were great was that they went beneath the top-line "big damn heroes" stuff in the same way as the better BL novels and specialist games did, they helped retain and reinforce 40K's proper tone and themes, they were a place to escape the uncritically heroic bombast that came to characterise the main studio's writing in recent years.

Primarchs and the Black Library, jeezo

agreed,, I loved the street level feel of Dark Heresy. I imagine we wont have a great deal of 'low level' focus

The best rpg's are always about the players first that lets them do the epic stuff. So naturally in a world which has primarch tier characters it really takes away from some of the dramatic tension when your not really having much of an impact.

It's all a matter or scale and perspective.

Primarchs are the demigods of their universe. They are of the mythos of their setting. 99.99% of denizens of the 40K universe will never meet or even be directly effected my them in any way beyond word of mouth or religion.

Complaing that Primarch level character's in a setting outshine the player characters accomplishments is like complaining that a Clerics diety actions outshine the actions of the Cleric.

Since the Sun God defeated the God of Darkness while they both created the world we live on, and my Cleric can't compete with that, I clearly can not achieve anything meaningful.

 schoon wrote:
Just watched the YouTube Seminar, and lots of great information.

- The big takeaway = Broad and inclusive core rulebook that gives a framework for everything, and...
- Campaign books - Adventures, Setting, and Player Options - that delve into details for specific play areas such as...
- Imperium Nihilus, Doom of the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, Death Watch, etc.
- Base game mechanic is d6 dice pools - unique system, but borrows from TORG (specifically) and others
- Combat will be brutal, and critical hits will be particularly nasty
- System will balance for gritty and epic play levels, and everywhere in between
- Psychic powers will be part of the game - high risk, high reward
- Starships and vehicles will be part of the "broad and inclusive" core framework
- Campaigns and adventures will have epic ideas - visiting the Black Library, fighting in the pits of Commorragh, meeting Primarchs, deamon princes, etc.
- There will be a beginner box, GM screen, and all the basics one would assume
- Adventure Anthology will be one of the first products
- Setting = 8th Edition storyline and all that entails

Thanks for the link as well as the rundown. Any mention on whether or not this will be a traditional release or crowdfunded?

 schoon wrote:
Just watched the YouTube Seminar, and lots of great information.

- The big takeaway = Broad and inclusive core rulebook that gives a framework for everything, and...
- Campaign books - Adventures, Setting, and Player Options - that delve into details for specific play areas such as...
- Imperium Nihilus, Doom of the Eldar, Orks, Space Marines, Death Watch, etc.
- Base game mechanic is d6 dice pools - unique system, but borrows from TORG (specifically) and others
- Combat will be brutal, and critical hits will be particularly nasty
- System will balance for gritty and epic play levels, and everywhere in between
- Psychic powers will be part of the game - high risk, high reward
- Starships and vehicles will be part of the "broad and inclusive" core framework
- Campaigns and adventures will have epic ideas - visiting the Black Library, fighting in the pits of Commorragh, meeting Primarchs, deamon princes, etc.
- There will be a beginner box, GM screen, and all the basics one would assume
- Adventure Anthology will be one of the first products
- Setting = 8th Edition storyline and all that entails

Well, if all this is incorporated into the base game, it's going to make for one hell of a core rulebook. I hope they don't end up going all over the place with it, but I am interested in seeing what they produce.

I'm fine with the options for epic stuff. I've often found it's easier to ignore options and scale down a game's scope than it is to try and bring a small scale game up to epic levels. (See the desire for and complexity of Ascension for Dark Heresy 1e.) I never liked the (gear bonus + situational bonus + talent bonus + action bonus - assorted penalties) complication required for every PC action to bring the players' chances of success out of the 30-50% range. I'd love to see a system that assumes a good to great deal of competency from the PCs, and then adds gear for flavor in 40K. Basing the 40K systems in the early 00's revision of a late 80's system for playing grimdark fantasy sewer jacks was probably a mistake, in retrospect. It was a system assuming you had swords and small but fierce dogs in your setting, not automatic weapons and plasma pistols.

I hope they have better support for creating your own NPCs this time around. I didn't like the old systems' way of giving you the stats of (for example) all the ork types from the wargame, premade with full stat blocks, but never told you, "to make an ork NPC, start with this baseline statblock and add stuff from there." This go around, I'd also like to see a better system for having 'mook' level NPCs, the type that can be dropped in one shot, action-movie style. I've always felt that was a handy tool for making the PCs seem like competent heroes at what they do. And such a ruleset is easy to ignore if you need every member of an opposing hive gang hard as nails in an underhive street-level campaign, but hard to incorporate your own houserule system if one isn't already implemented.

So I have some hopes, and the sparse information we have so far seems to imply that a lot of them will be met. I've been wanting new 40K rpgs for a while now, because after years of running the various FFG systems, I've gotten so where when the 40K RPG bug hits me, I look at the shelf of those books and slump my shoulders at the thought of running that clunky system again. A more modern, streamlines system with higher expectations of PC competence would be just the thing I'm looking for!

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

re the bolded bits; this sort of thing is exactly why some of us were reticent about the tonal shift of 8th. The reason the RPGs were great was that they went beneath the top-line "big damn heroes" stuff in the same way as the better BL novels and specialist games did, they helped retain and reinforce 40K's proper tone and themes, they were a place to escape the uncritically heroic bombast that came to characterise the main studio's writing in recent years.

Primarchs and the Black Library, jeezo

agreed,, I loved the street level feel of Dark Heresy. I imagine we wont have a great deal of 'low level' focus

I don't understand this sentiment. This isn't a pick up game of 7th ed 40k where the added onus to correctly frame and balance the gaming session is abdicated by the company and thrown instead onto the players.... it's an RPG where determining the relative power and setting of the campaign between GM and players has always been part and parcel of the experience. If they have rules for normal humans then in no way, shape, or form are you prohibited from using them exclusively just because other options will seamlessly exist in the background to plug in (as opposed to artifically carved off to resell at full price like with the BI/FFG system).

36:50 "If you want to play as barely capable guardsmen on a mission way above our paygrade, you can do that."

I see no reason why they wouldn't introduce (given the FFG/BI carving up of the universe) an IG specific book, an Inquisitorial specific book, a deathwatch specific book, etc.

 warboss wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

re the bolded bits; this sort of thing is exactly why some of us were reticent about the tonal shift of 8th. The reason the RPGs were great was that they went beneath the top-line "big damn heroes" stuff in the same way as the better BL novels and specialist games did, they helped retain and reinforce 40K's proper tone and themes, they were a place to escape the uncritically heroic bombast that came to characterise the main studio's writing in recent years.

Primarchs and the Black Library, jeezo

agreed,, I loved the street level feel of Dark Heresy. I imagine we wont have a great deal of 'low level' focus

I don't understand this sentiment. This isn't a pick up game of 7th ed 40k where the added onus to correctly frame and balance the gaming session is abdicated by the company and thrown instead onto the players.... it's an RPG where determining the relative power and setting of the campaign between GM and players has always been part and parcel of the experience. If they have rules for normal humans then in no way, shape, or form are you prohibited from using them exclusively just because other options will seamlessly exist in the background to plug in (as opposed to artifically carved off to resell at full price like with the BI/FFG system).

It's very simple; if theyre doing a lot of epic stuff with primarchs, commorragh, huge battles and a big focus on epic combat, then they are going to be spending less time on the smaller, more intricate details. I dont mind too much, as FFG did a great job last time in giving us that kind of thing

 adamsouza wrote:

The best rpg's are always about the players first that lets them do the epic stuff. So naturally in a world which has primarch tier characters it really takes away from some of the dramatic tension when your not really having much of an impact.

It's all a matter or scale and perspective.

Primarchs are the demigods of their universe. They are of the mythos of their setting. 99.99% of denizens of the 40K universe will never meet or even be directly effected my them in any way beyond word of mouth or religion.

Complaing that Primarch level character's in a setting outshine the player characters accomplishments is like complaining that a Clerics diety actions outshine the actions of the Cleric.

Since the Sun God defeated the God of Darkness while they both created the world we live on, and my Cleric can't compete with that, I clearly can not achieve anything meaningful.

Your sun god isn't running around the campaign directly intervening and able to sweep all your accomplishments directly away if needed. If you ever do something so important that it might make a difference the temptation is always there for your average GM to just bust out the primarchs to solve it and stick to "canon" in the setting which is so boring man. I find the idea of primarchs in 40k even on the tabletop to be ruining the setting a lot in general as well. It's not dramatic or interesting and I can't even slightly relate to them. I don't see what people ever found interesting in them other than interesting fluff set up in the background to make 40k that much more tragic, but now it's like oh well we can just have Primarchs do it all. The Sun god needs you to intervene in the mortal world. The Primarchs should be doing it themselves if it's that important and that is why I hate the setting. Feels like people aren't in control of their own fate and actions anymore.

If I do a new 40k campaign it's likely going to involve some angry normal space marines at being betrayed in a way. I know my Deathwatch group thinks the primais marines are stupid and said their DW characters would be super pissed to find out they fought and died all for this. I still think that if GW knew they could make space marine civilians and space marine farmers and make the whole Imperium space marines (male and female) they would and just forget about normal humans if they could. Everyone in my rpg group's has looked down on the return of the Primarchs where as my gaming groups have loved it. Anyone with a basic sense of narrative skill would know primarchs are boring and rpg's tend to put story first. If it matters I am a writer who has had some success here and there creatively.

Regarding power levels, they've made it pretty clear that the rule set will support any desired "power level."

Luke is no less a farm boy from Totouine for encountering Darth Vader, and even by the second film, he's totally outmatched. My point is that encountering epic story bits need not outshine the PCs if done well.

It's clear that Ross and Ulisses are excited to pay in a much bigger sandbox than GW had been willing to allow in the past.

Right but he is the main character in a movie and the entire story revolves around him and his family troubles directly. Darth Vader is his father and he tries to redeem him instead of killing him on his path to growing older and becoming a Jedi.

This is a perfect example becaise one of my players played in another GM's Star Wars campaign and he met and followed alongside Luke and other great hero's of the story and his group were glorified messengers for all the big characters of the Rebellion and always had to tag alongside them and get bailed out by them in ridiculous situations. He said it was one of the most boring games he ever had and the game didn't last long. Gee I wonder why if all my actions were meaningless since Luke or in 40k's case a Primarch can do it better or even a space marine then geez why am I here? If I was going to do an epic game involving primarchs I would make the PC's the primarchs and let them really open up on the galaxy and have some fun. They could even create new interesting ones too.

 Gamgee wrote:
Right but he is the main character in a movie and the entire story revolves around him and his family troubles directly. Darth Vader is his father and he tries to redeem him instead of killing him on his path to growing older and becoming a Jedi.

This is a perfect example becaise one of my players played in another GM's Star Wars campaign and he met and followed alongside Luke and other great hero's of the story and his group were glorified messengers for all the big characters of the Rebellion and always had to tag alongside them and get bailed out by them in ridiculous situations. He said it was one of the most boring games he ever had and the game didn't last long. Gee I wonder why if all my actions were meaningless since Luke or in 40k's case a Primarch can do it better or even a space marine then geez why am I here? If I was going to do an epic game involving primarchs I would make the PC's the primarchs and let them really open up on the galaxy and have some fun. They could even create new interesting ones too.

Yeah, that's sounds like a bad campaign. It is NOT however the fault of the setting or its creators though but rather that of the GM and to a lesser extent the players that allowed him to do it. It has nothing to do with the 40k universe and this upcoming RPG unless Ross Watson takes a stun baton to the head from a rogue Arbites and decides that the entire official setting will shoehorn in all players as gophers for NPCs with the climax of each adventure mandated to be a deus ex roboute. A bad GM and/or horrible players can ruin even the best laid plans of a game developer.

Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

Depth in an RPG world is pretty much dependent on the players and GM. You can have all the backstory and history of the Lord of the Rings but if your players and GM are unable to weave it into the story they're creating, it counts for diddly squat.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

i wouldnt say theyre garbage but I agree with you on thinking the whole thing will have less depth. Ross Watson was the head of the FFG 40k rpgs so having him back isnt a bad thing, I just imagine it will cater fsr less to more in depth RPer's tastes and more to the combat centric 40k tabletop crowd than the previous versions

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

i wouldnt say theyre garbage but I agree with you on thinking the whole thing will have less depth. Ross Watson was the head of the FFG 40k rpgs so having him back isnt a bad thing, I just imagine it will cater fsr less to more in depth RPer's tastes and more to the combat centric 40k tabletop crowd than the previous versions

Also there is an argument to be had to simplicity. If your group just wants to rpg mostly for a story and wants to keep the game moving fast then 40k rpg is way too dense for most. Numenera is basically the complete opposite of 40k rpg in terms of design. Meant to be light weight and easily able to improvise in as a player and a GM, but the setting is left vague so the GM/Player can make up what they want for the story and their character. I know it drives a lot of people crazy when there aren't discreet systems in a game and its left to more open interpretation. On the opposite side of the spectrum there are a lot of folks who like 40k setting but hate the rpg's because of their density of mechanics which to them seem superfluous if everyone can just agree to roleplay a bit more.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

That has to be the absolute worst definition of "depth" I've ever seen referencing a game. Carving up a single setting into thirds or fifths and then drip feeding it out at full price with largely (but not completely so as to be just incompatible enough) copy pasted rules over 8 years is not depth. Taking 1/3 of the universe and giving players who are interested in only that slice most of what they need while the other 2/3 of the universe and the players interested in that get nothing for years on end is not depth. Will the initial book(s) be less detailed for each individual power level? Yes.. but that's better IMO than most getting nothing while one small slice gets just enough. If they pull it off, everyone will get a good amount to start playing regardless of their individual tastes and then get more each year as time goes on. This way everyone gets to enjoy the full experience during the entirety of the license instead of wildly varying levels of support (in terms of numbers of books as well as actual years of practical use).

Some of you appear to have an issue with wanting to play in an established IP and then wanting said established IP bend to revovle around your characters.

 adamsouza wrote:
Some of you appear to have an issue with wanting to play in an established IP and then wanting said established IP bend to revovle around your characters.

If I'm playing an RPG the game damn well better revolve around our characters. Otherwise I'd just watch/read about it, no point in playing.

That doesn't mean that the setting must revolve around the characters, though. And I don't think that's what people was asking for. Most established settings tend to be big enough that you usually don't need to rub shoulders with the signature characters all the time.

 Albertorius wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Some of you appear to have an issue with wanting to play in an established IP and then wanting said established IP bend to revovle around your characters.

If I'm playing an RPG the game damn well better revolve around our characters. Otherwise I'd just watch/read about it, no point in playing.

That doesn't mean that the setting must revolve around the characters, though. And I don't think that's what people was asking for. Most established settings tend to be big enough that you usually don't need to rub shoulders with the signature characters all the time.

This. I played in a Dresden Files game for 4 years. Only two of the player characters ever even saw Harry Dresden and his screen time and dialogue was less than a Stan Lee cameo.

Honestly given that many characters in DH could solo LoC by the end of ascension paths I'm not so sure why Primarchs would be too powerful.

 warboss wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
Well, there goes all my hype. It sounds like the kitchen sink approach is going to leave it with the depth of a puddle.

Never thought I'd be more excited for an Age of Sigmar product than 40k, but I trust Crucible 7 to handle 'Warhammer' a lot more than I do these guys after reading those garbage bullet points.

That has to be the absolute worst definition of "depth" I've ever seen referencing a game. Carving up a single setting into thirds or fifths and then drip feeding it out at full price with largely (but not completely so as to be just incompatible enough) copy pasted rules over 8 years is not depth. Taking 1/3 of the universe and giving players who are interested in only that slice most of what they need while the other 2/3 of the universe and the players interested in that get nothing for years on end is not depth. Will the initial book(s) be less detailed for each individual power level? Yes.. but that's better IMO than most getting nothing while one small slice gets just enough. If they pull it off, everyone will get a good amount to start playing regardless of their individual tastes and then get more each year as time goes on. This way everyone gets to enjoy the full experience during the entirety of the license instead of wildly varying levels of support (in terms of numbers of books as well as actual years of practical use).

If I want broad strokes then I can flick open any Games Workshop publication, more specifically a Codex. They provide a decent overview of the various factions and races.But compare the amount of depth in Only War or Deathwatch compared to their respective codex's, because FFG had hundreds more pages with which to do their thing. Yes a lot of it was what was found in the codex, but they could go into so much more detail. When a setting like 40k is so unfriendly to 'Adventuring Parties' consist of OCDonutSteal Librarians and Shas'O's brushing shoulders then I would expect an RPG book that focuses on specific groups, not these broad stroke kitchen sinks. It's a limitation of the setting, one that people should come expecting and not throw out just because they want to be special snowflakes.

If I wanted a generic RPG system where I can cobble together an Astarte, an Eldar and an Ork I could go use a dozen homebrew systems/edits. I went to the FFG RPGs because of the depth and detail they provided on specific groups and regions. Almost the entirety of the information we have on the Deathwatch was taken from the RPG and much of the Inquisition as well (although granted DH1 was written in-house before FFG).

I'm not even going to get into how off the balance is going to be at Level 1/equivalent if they expect Guardsmen, Marines, Orks and Eldar to rub shoulders.

The point with Primarchs or any other big name characters in any RPG setting is not for them to be a direct boss fight foe or someone to bail out the characters. They are the quest-givers or background ultimate antagonist while the characters go against underlings. That is why I hold to the old adage "If you give it stats, the players will find a way to kill it." If you don't give them stats, then a GM will never be caught flat footed by some rules lawyering player. If some foolish player decides to attack anyway, then they can be disarmed, imprisoned, or if still persistent, just annihilated.

D&D gived you stats for the different Gods. That doesn't mean EVERY campaing ends with the players fighting the Gods. Is an option if a GM or a group wants to use it.

And thats what a RPG should offer you. Options (Within the setting), for the players to choose. If they want to give you stats for the Primarchs that doesn't mean that your campaings need to have anything to do with a Primarch.

Iracundus wrote:
The point with Primarchs or any other big name characters in any RPG setting is not for them to be a direct boss fight foe or someone to bail out the characters. They are the quest-givers or background ultimate antagonist while the characters go against underlings. That is why I hold to the old adage "If you give it stats, the players will find a way to kill it." If you don't give them stats, then a GM will never be caught flat footed by some rules lawyering player. If some foolish player decides to attack anyway, then they can be disarmed, imprisoned, or if still persistent, just annihilated.

Wow that sounds so fun not being able to do what I want and being railroaded along. Great gm advice write a book and it will serve as an example of what not to do. He was always threatening us with a bbeg we couldn't beat to get us to go in the direction he wanted instead of the players.

I had a GM like you once and even his unstattable opponents didn't make it. I even did it by accident. This is why I love rpg's. Me and my party did the impossible and to this day everyone talks about it. It's about great stories and impossible odds. Also I did kill the quest giver and took his position too and conquered an unconquerable waaagh and betrayed a lord of the planet to become its new rogue trader lord. All in one story arch.

 Gamgee wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The point with Primarchs or any other big name characters in any RPG setting is not for them to be a direct boss fight foe or someone to bail out the characters. They are the quest-givers or background ultimate antagonist while the characters go against underlings. That is why I hold to the old adage "If you give it stats, the players will find a way to kill it." If you don't give them stats, then a GM will never be caught flat footed by some rules lawyering player. If some foolish player decides to attack anyway, then they can be disarmed, imprisoned, or if still persistent, just annihilated.

Wow that sounds so fun not being able to do what I want and being railroaded along. Great gm advice write a book and it will serve as an example of what not to do. He was always threatening us with a beg we couldn't beat to get us to go in the durection he wanted instead of the players.

I had a GM like you once and even his unstattable opponents didn't make it. I even did it by accident. This is why I love rpg's. Me and my party did the impossible and to this day everyone talks about it. It's about great stories and impossible odds. Also I did kill the quest giver and took his position too and conquered an unconquerable waaagh and betrayed a lord of the planet to become its new rogue trader lord. All in one story arch.

Your aggressive response in no way addresses or even remotely resembles the point he was making. I'm glad for you that you got to Mary sue your way into such a powerful position... while your fellow players probably got taken along for the "everything in the campaign is about gamgee" ride (unless everyone got their own planet!) but quest givers beyond the power level of the party have been a staple of rpgs since the 70s. It's appropriate possibly for 18th-20th level dnd characters to attempt to usurp the king/quest giver' s power but not so at lower levels. The same is true in 40k as your interrogator trying to off the inquisitor Lord of the sector or a tactical marine dethroning a primarch as head of the legion should be the rare exception and not the ridiculous standard you design the rules and setting around in the introductory core rulebook.

It's odd that you're whining that power levels above normal humans are getting support initially while simultaneously lamenting GMs who might not let that low to mid level character effectively take control of the setting itself.

Personally I think RPG's are all about interpretation and not about killing stuff like a videogame. Thats why this "I destroy this GOD by pure brute force and stats" is very... gamey for me.

I prefer when the players work his way to gain those achievements, and not by taking the best combo of traits/weapons/etc (You know, the way of the munchkin)... but by pure interpretation. In a old Warhammer Fantasy roleplay game, our warband of chaos cultists stealed the leadershipg of a Chaos Horde that was following Archaon without having a single battle. Pure diplomacy, conversation and carefully crafted plans.
Obviously this is why I normally prefer Vampire:The Masquerade over more dungeon crawler RPG's like Pathfinder.


So, when he is talking about "Don't put stats to something like a GOD", isn't talking about making them unbeatable to railroad the campaing, but making them something that you can't just kill withou thinking with the right amount of munchking cheereos in your character.

 Gamgee wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

The best rpg's are always about the players first that lets them do the epic stuff. So naturally in a world which has primarch tier characters it really takes away from some of the dramatic tension when your not really having much of an impact.

It's all a matter or scale and perspective.

Primarchs are the demigods of their universe. They are of the mythos of their setting. 99.99% of denizens of the 40K universe will never meet or even be directly effected my them in any way beyond word of mouth or religion.

Complaing that Primarch level character's in a setting outshine the player characters accomplishments is like complaining that a Clerics diety actions outshine the actions of the Cleric.

Since the Sun God defeated the God of Darkness while they both created the world we live on, and my Cleric can't compete with that, I clearly can not achieve anything meaningful.

Your sun god isn't running around the campaign directly intervening and able to sweep all your accomplishments directly away if needed. If you ever do something so important that it might make a difference the temptation is always there for your average GM to just bust out the primarchs to solve it and stick to "canon" in the setting which is so boring man. I find the idea of primarchs in 40k even on the tabletop to be ruining the setting a lot in general as well. It's not dramatic or interesting and I can't even slightly relate to them. I don't see what people ever found interesting in them other than interesting fluff set up in the background to make 40k that much more tragic, but now it's like oh well we can just have Primarchs do it all. The Sun god needs you to intervene in the mortal world. The Primarchs should be doing it themselves if it's that important and that is why I hate the setting. Feels like people aren't in control of their own fate and actions anymore.

If I do a new 40k campaign it's likely going to involve some angry normal space marines at being betrayed in a way. I know my Deathwatch group thinks the primais marines are stupid and said their DW characters would be super pissed to find out they fought and died all for this. I still think that if GW knew they could make space marine civilians and space marine farmers and make the whole Imperium space marines (male and female) they would and just forget about normal humans if they could. Everyone in my rpg group's has looked down on the return of the Primarchs where as my gaming groups have loved it. Anyone with a basic sense of narrative skill would know primarchs are boring and rpg's tend to put story first. If it matters I am a writer who has had some success here and there creatively.

this isn't a problem with the game it's a problem with a GM. if Gulliman is running around personally interveneing with the PCs the GMs PROABLY doing it wrong (done right mind you it can work in a "ohh hey, someone's attacking Gulliman we need to come save him and tip the tide") don't assume just because they say you might MEET Gulliman that you'll see him frequently in a combat role, he'll likely be a quest giver

If the RPG is open enough, you can do anything with it. And whilst I liked the fact that the FFG 40k RPGs were split into different games with different settings (allowed for far more specific story-telling), I'm not against a more open system.

The only fear is that it becomes a Magical School Bus-style tour of all the big names in 40K.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the RPG is open enough, you can do anything with it. And whilst I liked the fact that the FFG 40k RPGs were split into different games with different settings (allowed for far more specific story-telling), I'm not against a more open system.

The only fear is that it becomes a Magical School Bus-style tour of all the big names in 40K.

yeah gonna be intreasting to see how it's done.