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Nothing to stop the GM from playing hardball with party composition.

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

[Nervous Laughter]

So we've got a dice pool system that wants to try and cover gritty to epic that will somehow work with 'diverse' parties like Guardsmen and Space Marines.. yeeeaah. I, uh, think I'll be waiting for reviews on this one.

I'm in exactly the same position. I want this to be good but...

Yeah. The CSM were nerfed into the ing ground to not make them complete autotakes in Black Crusade and that did not make for good roleplay.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Nothing to stop the GM from playing hardball with party composition.

That needs a good GM though.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Pseudomonas wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

[Nervous Laughter]

So we've got a dice pool system that wants to try and cover gritty to epic that will somehow work with 'diverse' parties like Guardsmen and Space Marines.. yeeeaah. I, uh, think I'll be waiting for reviews on this one.

I'm in exactly the same position. I want this to be good but...

Yeah. The CSM were nerfed into the ing ground to not make them complete autotakes in Black Crusade and that did not make for good roleplay.

The problem was you didn't want Deathwatch levels.. Where the only thing that would challenge a party is something so incredibly overpowered. The heavy bolter stats were a travesty even after the nerf.

I don't think (C)SM and normal humans make for a good mix in a party. It will inevitably make things very combat focused (why would anyone send SM to handle nobles and intrigue at a winter ball?) where SM will inevitably be vastly superior.

Because Space Marines will seldom be skilled at anything but combat. You'll need the guys that are good at gathering information, dealing with the local government, a psyker, someone who can actually pilot and repair vehicles, etc...

So a low level Inquisitorial agent, a Space Marine, an Imperial Navy Pilot, and Admech techpriest could all have useful rolls in an adventuring party.

Nerfed into the ground?

How?

 Ashiraya wrote:

Yeah. The CSM were nerfed into the ing ground to not make them complete autotakes in Black Crusade and that did not make for good roleplay.

XP equalized, normal CSM statistically pasted on a regular basis every "normal" human even after the nerf in combat barring RNG and maybe versus a psyker willing to push powers to the limits and fry his soul.. and that's assuming that the GM disallowed sorcerer marines which were even more powerful. Did they tone them down? Sure, absolutely... but "nerfed into the ***** ground"? Nah.

 adamsouza wrote:
Because Space Marines will seldom be skilled at anything but combat. You'll need the guys that are good at gathering information, dealing with the local government, a psyker, someone who can actually pilot and repair vehicles, etc...

So a low level Inquisitorial agent, a Space Marine, an Imperial Navy Pilot, and Admech techpriest could all have useful rolls in an adventuring party.

I'm... less sure about this. Would this mean that normal human combat characters like guardsmen wouldn't be viable at all? Or would be considered a dramatically weaker character than any other human with basic training in a field that wasn't combat? The fact that marine would, lorewise at least, be more useful in combat than the other three put together also is an issue, as the others either won't be useful or the space marine won't be under threat.

It's taking every issue with black crusade, than cranking it up another level. At least in black crusade you had human characters who were clearly fair high in power level to start with, and even then the space marines were a bit tepid yet still absolute monsters all at once.

Hopefully space marines remain in the realm of high level/power character suitable for either a replacement character mid campaign or for usage in a higher level campaign, where the characters are all elites.

A marine in his armor will be more survivable than a guardsman, but in a skill based/ dice pool game, a guard veteran could be of equal marksmanship and wield a gun that does the same damage.

Just like in D&D how a fighter is more survivable and better in melee but the rest of the adventuring party is still useful.

Frankly, Marines just aren't good PCs for an RPG. The in-setting justification for them hanging out with some normal humans is flimsy. Then you have the issue that anything that can challenge the marine in combat is fully capable of wiping out the non-marine members. Not to mention your role-play options are limited. Marines are living weapons of war, and at least from human perspectives they wouldn't be very interesting. Marines also aren't exactly subtle. It's not like you can go snooping around the under-hive disguised as laborers with a 8ft dude in power armor following you around.

But it's mostly the setting problems that are an issue. Mechanically a marine being your combat tank/damage dealer is fine in the normal party dynamic. But the role-play options get seriously hampered by a marine being in the party unless you ignore a huge chunk of the setting background. Same thing with aliens in the party.

Its one reason I didn't like the Deathwatch portion of FFG's stuff as much. The system was great, but role-play options for a squad of loyalist marines is very limited. It just ultimately descends into the party being murderhobos. Which does make sense in the setting because that's basically what marines are, but it makes for poor roleplay.

The in-setting justification has been stated that the game is set on the dark side of Imperium, cutt off from proper reinforcements, and the adventuring party is likely to be anyone left alive to answer the call.

So any good citizen of the Imperium should be happy for a Space Marine ally, while a Space Marine, without a way back to his chapter, is likely to attach himself other humans fighting against chaos and xenos.

Space Marines are iconic to the setting. Many people will want to play them. I imagine there will be quite a few Murderhobo groups comprised of Space Marines, from various chapters.

 Arbitrator wrote:

So we've got a dice pool system that wants to try and cover gritty to epic that will somehow work with 'diverse' parties like Guardsmen and Space Marines.. yeeeaah. I, uh, think I'll be waiting for reviews on this one.

Fair enough. No one will really know how good the system is for some time. Some systems can handle diversity, and some not so much.

However, the fact that they've already taken it into consideration as a design goal is a positive sign.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its one reason I didn't like the Deathwatch portion of FFG's stuff as much. The system was great, but role-play options for a squad of loyalist marines is very limited.

I don't see how.

The Role-Play aspects of an RPG are up to the players. If you find it limiting then you're the one limiting it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Frankly, Marines just aren't good PCs for an RPG.

Not true at all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The system was great

Not true at all

 Grey Templar wrote:
but role-play options for a squad of loyalist marines is very limited.

No it isn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It just ultimately descends into the party being murderhobos.

No it shouldn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
but it makes for poor roleplay.

No it doesn't.

Just go high powered if you want to use Marines - or have them as the strike team alt characters

I ran a successful campaign with a Inquisitor, Imperial Assassin, Dark Angels Librarian and a Adepta Sororitas veteran

They had to deal with large scale issues as well as combat - so yes they fought off a Dark elder attack on their ship but also had to negotiate with the Ad Mech about the ownership of a star system and also the Eldar about a Slaan in stasis. Then a large Space Hulk turned up for them to deal with - which involved negotiation, planning, leading strike teams etc.

Marines can be in charge of military operations on a large scale rather than just fighting a few bad guys,

High Level games can be as much fun as low level ones - you also tend to get away from the looting aspect when you already have a starship full of useful stuff!

Mixing SM and non-SM characters in the FFG systems tended to result in your characters effectively cowering behind the Space Marine when the bullets started flying, but your Arbiter jingling keys in front of the SM's face while the Cleric did the talking any time diplomacy was needed.

 adamsouza wrote:
The in-setting justification has been stated that the game is set on the dark side of Imperium, cutt off from proper reinforcements, and the adventuring party is likely to be anyone left alive to answer the call.

So any good citizen of the Imperium should be happy for a Space Marine ally, while a Space Marine, without a way back to his chapter, is likely to attach himself other humans fighting against chaos and xenos.

Space Marines are iconic to the setting. Many people will want to play them. I imagine there will be quite a few Murderhobo groups comprised of Space Marines, from various chapters.

Which still doesn't make sense. Chapters would still largely stick together. They're not going to be sending marines out to join up with random groups of guardsmen and average citizens.

Caliginous wrote:

Not true at all. Not true at all No it isn't. No it shouldn't. No it doesn't.

Got anything to actually contribute?

 adamsouza wrote:
A marine in his armor will be more survivable than a guardsman, but in a skill based/ dice pool game, a guard veteran could be of equal marksmanship and wield a gun that does the same damage.

Just like in D&D how a fighter is more survivable and better in melee but the rest of the adventuring party is still useful.

Because they do equal or more damage in combat, and can actually contribute outside combat? I'm not sure the fighter is the parallel to draw- that's usually a problematic class in D&D, for being one diemnsional and not being even vaguely on the same power level as Spellcasters or rogues.


Also fluff-wise, a guardsmen won't have equal marksmanship or a comparable gun.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
The in-setting justification has been stated that the game is set on the dark side of Imperium, cutt off from proper reinforcements, and the adventuring party is likely to be anyone left alive to answer the call.

So any good citizen of the Imperium should be happy for a Space Marine ally, while a Space Marine, without a way back to his chapter, is likely to attach himself other humans fighting against chaos and xenos.

Space Marines are iconic to the setting. Many people will want to play them. I imagine there will be quite a few Murderhobo groups comprised of Space Marines, from various chapters.

Which still doesn't make sense. Chapters would still largely stick together. They're not going to be sending marines out to join up with random groups of guardsmen and average citizens.

Sure it does. There are certainly references to SM chapters sending single marines to act as emmissaries, to link their chapter to the rest of the imperial warmachine. Or you could go with him being a single survivor of their squad. (single squads being even more common in the fluff). Or you could have a marine leading a group of serfs and allies.

Hell, anything involving the Inquisition could work fine. The Inquisitor just asked a chapter for help. He got a couple of marines. Or one strong marine (say, a librarian.). And if no suitably strong leader is in the party, then the GM can play an Inquisitor. Bam, now youve got a valid reason for why you underhive scum is fighting side by side with a SM.

 EnTyme wrote:
Mixing SM and non-SM characters in the FFG systems tended to result in your characters effectively cowering behind the Space Marine when the bullets started flying, but your Arbiter jingling keys in front of the SM's face while the Cleric did the talking any time diplomacy was needed.

I had a situation where the SM Libarian did a Pysker trick so the Dark Eldar assult team could not see him when they entered the room - the Assassin player was less than impressed as they all targeted her with liquifers and other nastiness. She ws not at all amused.

 adamsouza wrote:
A marine in his armor will be more survivable than a guardsman, but in a skill based/ dice pool game, a guard veteran could be of equal marksmanship and wield a gun that does the same damage.

Just like in D&D how a fighter is more survivable and better in melee but the rest of the adventuring party is still useful.

Well first a guardsman doesn't have the training, weaponry, or wargear of a space marine even in 40k proper. In a rpg actually doing justice to what a space marine is in fluff, the gap is probably going to be even larger. A normal guardsman should more or less be useless compared to a normal space marine. Even a veteran wouldn't be on par with anyone but a scout if they were doing it accurately, that's strictly a tabletop thing that's due to the abstract and simplified nature not leaving much room.

As for the fighter... well the fighter is a classic example of why having a pure combat class without utility just doesn't work.

Here's the deal... SM hype is great and in all the percentile systems Marines have had to be beasts through crazy stats. That's the sense which most people are looking through.

But over in Shadowrun Trolls have been there since the beginning. Now, just hold your horses and let me explain. In SR you often see the troll wielding a chain gun...because they can. Physically a troll is equivalent to a Marine. SR nerfs the Troll by restricting their social aspects, though many people enjoy making Troll Faces regardless.

So, on the wrong side of the rift people with have to accept Marines wandering around with Inquisitor acolytes, Eldar Rangers and various other motley fellows. And why can't a Marine be charming or intellectually curious? Maybe this "darkening" is what allowed a particular Marine to show off his softer side. Not all of us believe the propaganda perpetuated since second edition. Just saying.

Not in this game.

Same as in 40K, you pays your money, you take your chances.

As to the Space Marines, you have to tailor your game for what you want to do. If , for an example- You want to take a half a depleted squad, transport them to point A, and the depleted squad has to do A, to get to B. to get to C, or they are going to die, because of the low supplies, the precarious condition of the transport, and the incoming Chaos, or Cults contingent rolling in, and coming across them, in surprise.

You quite feasibly could end up taking that squad into a trench line, running across a IG squad of greenies, or a small contingent of Vets, who for one reason or another are caught out there in no mans land, and don't even know it.

The deal is, though if your Space Marine squad is too hard for the setting, you have to- by all seriousness, have to up the ante. You shouldn't have that depleted squad fighting a couple of guys. You need to set the adventure to the heroes.

WHY are they there?
What do they need to do to make it to the next meal?
WHO is their enemies, and what do they need to do to win?
Where are they? are they part of a multi tire invasion, are they a small fire team? are they doing a snatch and grab? are they a sniper team, going in to do a piece of work?
How exactly are they related? Are the heroes a scratch team, tied together to survive in a hostile environment? are they the "Lone survivor types", are they there for a reason? is it by chance?

The game is hard core, You don't just get to run around punching grots , except when you are punching them to get the last mag for your boltgun, with two rounds left. and one of the little gits has a Space Marine knife/ chainsword that you need.

Caliginous wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Frankly, Marines just aren't good PCs for an RPG.

Not true at all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The system was great

Not true at all

 Grey Templar wrote:
but role-play options for a squad of loyalist marines is very limited.

No it isn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It just ultimately descends into the party being murderhobos.

No it shouldn't.

 Grey Templar wrote:
but it makes for poor roleplay.

No it doesn't.

Explain please or your opinion is invalid, not that I disagree, but "nope" is not helping much.

SilverAlien wrote:

Well first a guardsman doesn't have the training, weaponry, or wargear of a space marine even in 40k proper. In a rpg actually doing justice to what a space marine is in fluff, the gap is probably going to be even larger. A normal guardsman should more or less be useless compared to a normal space marine. Even a veteran wouldn't be on par with anyone but a scout if they were doing it accurately, that's strictly a tabletop thing that's due to the abstract and simplified nature not leaving much room.

Fluff is always action hero level of ridiculous. Gameplay design reigns starting level characters down to a playable levels.

Dice Pool games usually revolve around Attribute + Skill = Dice Pool.

Marines do not have superhuman levels of agility or marksmanship, they have superior training.

A IG player Character who puts skill points into his shooting/Firearms skill will catch up, if not surpass the default space Marine Level.

Shadowrun has Street Samurai working along deckers.
D&D has Fighters/Clerics working along side Bards.
Vampire has different Clans working together.
Star Wars has wildly different characters working together.

RPGs have been doing this for a long time now. Some characters will be better at some things than others. It's up to the GM to give them all something to do to let them shine.

If mixed parties with Space Marine were problematic in the FFG 40K, it could have been poor Game Mastering or poor game design, but there should be a way to make it work. Plenty of other games have managed it. U.S.G. is already aware of it, and has made a concious design goal to make it work.

The explanation has already been stated:

RPGs are what you make of them. If you think that Space Marine's can't be RP'd, then really that's more of a 'you' problem than the game's problem.

 adamsouza wrote:
Marines do not have superhuman levels of agility or marksmanship, they have superior training.

Marksmanship, perhaps not (though their vastly superior eyesight helps, as does their strength) but speed and agility, most definitely.

(Though if you want to continue that argument I suggest PMs so as to not derail).

 Ashiraya wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Marines do not have superhuman levels of agility or marksmanship, they have superior training.

Marksmanship, perhaps not (though their vastly superior eyesight helps, as does their strength) but speed and agility, most definitely.

(Though if you want to continue that argument I suggest PMs so as to not derail).

NUMEROUS Source indicate that in addition to their strength, Spacemarines are extremely fast. numerous sources (partiuclarly in the horus heresy) describe "transhuman dread" where normal humans are basicly left horrified when fighting marines upon the realization that they're that fast

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:
Marines do not have superhuman levels of agility or marksmanship, they have superior training.

Marksmanship, perhaps not (though their vastly superior eyesight helps, as does their strength) but speed and agility, most definitely.

(Though if you want to continue that argument I suggest PMs so as to not derail).

NUMEROUS Source indicate that in addition to their strength, Spacemarines are extremely fast. numerous sources (partiuclarly in the horus heresy) describe "transhuman dread" where normal humans are basicly left horrified when fighting marines upon the realization that they're that fast

Yeah. They're fast, and even faster when in power armor. Better hand eye coordination gives them better aim with ranged weapons.