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ikeulhu wrote: So then why is having a system in place that players and GM's can ignore if they feel it goes against the setting a problem?
It's not a problem. It's a problem as far as my idea of what is an enjoyable rpg design is concerned. Just like, my opinion, man.
I like when rules support the setting. A party system that pairs up a commissar and a Space Marine like nothing happened does not do that. In my opinion, man.
ikeulhu wrote: So then why is having a system in place that players and GM's can ignore if they feel it goes against the setting a problem?
It's not a problem. It's a problem as far as my idea of what is an enjoyable rpg design is concerned. Just like, my opinion, man.
I like when rules support the setting. A party system that pairs up a commissar and a Space Marine like nothing happened does not do that. In my opinion, man.
Fair enough, I can and do respect your opinion. I also can see how having a tighter rule set focused on specific groups instead of having to try and balance mixed groups can lead to a better and more balanced system. I was however surprised when you mentioned that you would prefer to have a system in place that one can ignore as opposed to having no system in place, as that seems in opposition to having strict party requirements.
Also, I think it is unfair to say that the system teams mixed members up like nothing happened when there is actually an ascension system in place to reflect and tell the story of how a lower tier character is able to rise into a higher tier of play. See http://www.ulisses-us.com/wrath-glory-designer-diary-february-2018/
Granted, we won't know how well the system does this until we see more of the rules, but it does sound like they are attempting to mix parties in a way that has some support from the setting without leaving it completely up to the GM to justify it. I honestly understand some of your concerns, but it seems to me that you are making an early judgement that does not give enough credit to the potential for variety within the setting of 40k. I am also willing to admit that my opinion could very well turn out to be too hopeful, but only time will tell.
The designers have stated from the get-go that the varied party was one of their biggest features.
It could always turn out to be sucky, but this is an established studio.
Doom and gloom at this point just seems silly. Especially considering if you don't like their approach, you can simply revert back to FFG's system.
Vector Strike wrote: I, for one, really like the idea of mixed groups.
After all, Black Crusade was the the most fun of all FFG40k books for me!
if only Black Crusade had some inkling of the idea of balance, and that the final book wasn't a mashup of Undivided and Nurgle meant to get it out quick before the 40k license went away. (Same for only war!)
His Master's Voice wrote: It's not a problem. It's a problem as far as my idea of what is an enjoyable rpg design is concerned. Just like, my opinion, man.
I like when rules support the setting. A party system that pairs up a commissar and a Space Marine like nothing happened does not do that. In my opinion, man.
What about a party with a techpriest, an inquisitor, a Sister of Battle and a wych.
Chairman Aeon wrote: What about a party with a techpriest, an inquisitor, a Sister of Battle and a wych.
That would work with a proper back story, simply because pretty much any combination of "former occupation X" works as long as there's an Inqusitor involved.
In contrast, how many possible distinct situations could one come up with that involve a Sister of Battle in active service and a standing member of a Wych Cult cooperating?
It's one of the reasons I kinda hope those career paths we've been shown so far are more general ideas on what the background of a character could be, rather than actual active occupations.
It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
I'm still amazed Rogue Trader went with the ability to take a Dark Eldar.. Not just the normal standard ones, but a friggen Haemuncolous on board a rogue trader ship.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I'm still amazed Rogue Trader went with the ability to take a Dark Eldar.. Not just the normal standard ones, but a friggen Haemuncolous on board a rogue trader ship.
Whats strange about that? Dark Eldars have normally deals with humans. Normally with shaddy corrupted humans.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
Change the space marine for a Ogryn and you have a totally functional party.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/10 00:15:30
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
That's true, but it's a weird standard when you have a fleshshaper on board who has to cause suffering to your crew to feed daily as a permanent party member.
You'd think that'd cause a bit of morale loss to the crew, aside from a measure of "This is the stick you get tortured with for speaking out"
A system that calls for constant exceptions is not something I'm interested in.
Then 40K isn't the setting for you, as it's calling card is "this galaxy is so big and there's so much stuff going on at one time that nothing is the same everywhere."
Xenos and Imperials are sworn enemies! Except they aren't because Rogue Traders ally with Xenos all time time.
Chaos and the Imperium would never be allies! Not true, the most prominent Inquisitor in all of the lore has a Daemon-Host in his retinue. He spent literally years conversing with a heretic soas to fight against another heretic.
Space Marines and Guardsmen don't fight alongside one another! ...seriously?
And nothing I've stated here is even made up fanon. It's all straight from official sources. Combine with that the fact that this RPG is designed to mostly take place within the Dark Imperium, literally a hellhole even by Imperial standards where the light of the Astronomicon barely even exists and I have to ask why someone who is so desperate for consistency would even be a 40K fan in the first place.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
GM: "Listening Post Gamma-Epsilon 79 has fallen silent. You've been sent investigate. Why?"
Commissar: "The listening post is vital to the securing the Allarus Salient against attack, Segmentum Command has sent me to investigate."
Guardsman (Deadpan): "...The commissar ordered --"
Commissar: "ASKED!"
Guardsman (Deadpan): "Asked me to go with her.... (stage whisper) and we all know what happens when you say no Commissars..."
Tech-Priest: "Hmm, whatever has affected the listening post has likely angered the facility's machine spirits. They will need a proper blessing by the Ominissiah's chosen to resume functioning."
Space Marine: "During the Second Founding, my chapter swore to protect the worlds of this sector from any threat. I shall fulfill those ancient oaths and safeguard the honor of my Chapter by volunteering to aid in this investigation..."
Ork Freeboota: "Da hummie wit' the big hat paid me lots o' teef ta go see what was goin' on, sayz there might be somethin' tha' needs a good crumpin'!"
Alderi Ranger: "My craftworld's Farseers determined the craftworld's survival is dependent on the success of the mon-keigh's war... And so the loss of the listening post does more than threaten the outcome of the mon-keigh's war, it threatens my craftworld."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/10 03:22:47
I'm reading I Am Slaughter right now (Beast Arises series) and about half of the main plot is dedicated to an Imperial Fist, Guardsman captain and tech Magos surviving in a tunnel network as Orks bombard the planet. Hmmmm...
H.B.M.C. wrote: Those are some great one-shot adventures you guys have described.
To be fair, many of the great campaigns start with a really solid one-shot. All a GM needs is a solid reason to get the players together - keeping them together is much easier in a setting where travel is restricted as much as it is in 40k. After your solid one-shot, the groups basically at the mercy of fate in getting around. Unless they find their own ride, but then they're unlikely to go return if duties are unfulfilled, items left unclaimed, etc etc.
Also, having real solidly generated characters with a need for cooperation helps a great deal. The John French Ahriman book reminds me of this, or even Eater of Worlds with the medic-girl just trying to frikking survive around the world eaters.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Those are some great one-shot adventures you guys have described.
Please refer to my previous posts for an example of a way to seamlessly flow from one adventure to the next in a way that is organic and completely lore friendly without even needing to invoke a higher power (such as an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader).
Our heroes, at the end of their bloody campaign to liberate Aproximus Naminius from the clutches of a chaos tainted colonial governor after being stranded deep behind enemy lines, finally manage to assassinate the governor and escape the planet in his personal ship. As they make their way to rendezvous with the rest of the Imperium forces who are still fighting to crush the chaos-crazed PDF, a huge Warp disturbance engulfs their ship and, before they are hurtled headlong into the warp, they see an enormous, ancient, black battlecruiser materialise above the planet.
Suddenly, alarms ring out over the bridge, indicating a gellar field failure in the cargo bay. The magos is tasked with fixing the field generator whilst the pragmatic Commissar, raw Space Marine Scout and grizzled veteran Guardsman head to hold off the waves of demons pouring into the ship.
It is a hard fight, many of the intrepid troupe are wounded but they finally seal the field breach and finish off the warpspawn. They regroup on the bridge and consult the star charts to determine their location, only to find they have been flung to the far side of the galaxy, beyond Imperium space and that the breach of the gellar field has damaged their warp drive. With horror they realise they are within Ork-held territory and that they have no alternative but to land on the nearest habitable planet in order to restock what meagre supplies survived the warp incursion if they are to have any hope of making it back to Imperium space....
There you go, a perfectly valid according to in-universe lore example of how to keep the characters together which doesn't rely on them becoming the lackeys of an inquisitor or rogue trader. It also provides for a change of enemy (Cultists to Orks), new challenges to overcome (keeping the ship running) and provides an entrance for lots of cool new set pieces (Mad Max Fury Road chase sequence with shades of gorkamorka when they steal a trukk of promethium from an Ork refinery, anyone?) and even potentially new PC's (Ork Mek PC who helps them "keep deir ship runnin' da orky way", for example).
Just because 99.9999999% of the time the scenario wouldn't happen, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen in the game. You are playing the 0.0000001% of the time that it does.
For how to cap that ork section of the campaign off:
They could feel the manic throb of the engine throughout the ship, coupled with the mad cries of Werner Von Brork as he was plugged into the warp drive. Messalina looked across to Magos Khris, strapped into the chair, struggling wildly to break free, screaming about insults to the Machine God.
"Is there no way to shut her off? Just put her into sleep mode or something?" snarked Willem, subconciously clutching his lasgun close for comfort.
"Let's keep ourselves focused on the mission" cut in Stratus.
"The frakking plan is crazy though! We'll all be killed!"
At that moment, they came into view of the Ork Waagh fleet. Thousands upon thousands of Ork ships, some seeming impossible that they could even be capable of flight appeared from round the back of the moon.
Messalina straightened her ragged cap, set her face in a grim expression and flipped the external transmission system on.
"This is the Imperial ship Suicidal Desperation. You are ordered to surrender your ships and to prepare for extermination"
As their message reached the Ork ships they could almost feel the eyes of the Waagh turn onto them, as Brorks cries suddenly ceased.
All at once the engines of the ork armada flared into life and the whole might of the waagh raced towards them. As the ships thundered closer, Brorks cries returned, though this time they were tinged with wild exultation over the pain. The psychic energy of millions of minds was focused completely on their ship and that energy was pouring into the warp drive. They flew wildly through the vacuum, erratically veering to evade the missiles and shells fired by the Ork ships but all the while the massed throng of green flesh closed in on them.
Suddenly the stars out the bridge window began to smear and ripple. The sounds of the Orks coming over the comms shot upwards in pitch, quickly reaching frequencies they couldn't hear but which shattered Messalinas synthohol glass.
All at once, the stars winked out and were briefly replaced by a huge eye, wreathed in flame staring directly into the backs of their skulls. But then it was gone and instead they faced normal space. Inky blackness dotted with pinpricks of light. Silence filled the ship.
"okay," sighed Messalina, "where the frak are we now?"
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/02/10 10:33:58
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Those are some great one-shot adventures you guys have described.
You know that if FFG was enough for you, you can start all your campaings with you group being an inquisitor/rogue trader's retinue. Then you dont need one shot justifications.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
I think the idea that the party needs to basically get together before the adventure starts is a major problem to good stories. There is nothing wrong with having your party meet up slowly during the adventure and naturally falling into working together due to their individual goals having mutual benefits.
So in my aforementioned "crash land on cultist controlled planet deep behind enemy lines" adventure, you could have the guardsman and commissar be the sole survivors from their own crashed troopship. Meanwhile the space marine scout, looking for somewhere to patch up his wounds after the firefight which got the rest of his forward observer squad killed, heads towards a hidden bunker which, as far as he is aware, is only known of by the Astartes. He is surprised, then, to find that an admech magos had found it already and is using it to store technological artifacts prior to transporting them offworld.
Then, have the IG SOS message be picked up by a comms set in the bunker, leading to the unification of the two parties. The IG want to get off world and rendezvous with their unit (preferably just in time to avoid the frontline fighting), the Space Marine wants to get to a communications system capable of getting a message to his chapter about some secret of the planet which is vitally important to the war effort and the magos wants to get their artifacts off world. So all of them agree to head to the nearest star port, as it is the most likely place to have all of those things and they stand a much better chance of getting there together.
As for a xenos, the Eldar were operating to tilt the outcome of the events to their favour, which required our characters to complete their goals. The Tau was part of a water caste diplomatic mission gone wrong and want to report back to their command with disturbing news about the nature of the planet. The Ork could be a mercenary (though it would be easier in my two scenarios for an ork character to join during the second adventure arc) etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/10 09:01:27
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
The appearance of the Cicatrix Maledictum makes for strange bedfellows.
Envoys of various organizations trapped beyond support; struggling Imperial systems desperate for aid no matter the source; Puritans and Radicals forced together out of desperate need. You get the idea.
It makes some odd PC mixes more plausible. Not all, but certainly more...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course that is dependent on the GM to have a campaign where such non-combat aspects came into play regularly enough (and where the space marine couldn't just bulldoze past with brawn).
Absolutely but I'd say that is more of a general disclaimer for rpg campaigns rather than an issue with mixed power tiers.
The system can help or hinder it. If combat is so complex that even a minor skirmish takes two hours to resolve (and if your character can't contribute, that's two hours of looking at your phone or building dice sculptures) while non-combat problems are dealt with in a single dice roll, that's pushing players towards combat characters.
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Aren’t you and H.B.M.C. arguing that the folks who wouldn’t mind running and/or playing in mixed groups of Imperials and xenos characters - ahem - “like 40kthe wrong way”? Oh, the irony...
H.B.M.C. wrote:Those are some great one-shot adventures you guys have described.
Hm. Not entirely sure if this an example of moving the goal post or not. I provided an example of how a a GM might bring a group of Imperial and Xenos characters together. In the example of the listening post, each hypothetical player was able to give a good in-character reason as to why they were investigating it. And the listening post isn’t necessarily a one shot: there is a reason it fell silent, and the GM hasn’t disclosed it yet. Was it heretical subversion, a raid by Heretic Astartes, or the influence of a GSC? If only there was a massive and shadowy organization with factions specially tailored to each of those threats.... Works great for just about everyone. The Alderi Ranger could receive word from his Farseer that one of the player characters has some impact on his Craftworld - although the details are murky - and they need to be observed. The humie in the big hat - a radical Inquisitor or Rogue Trader? - continues paying the Ork in teef as long as the Ork keeps doing what the Inquisitor says (and reminds the Ork that working for the Inquisition leads to the biggest and best fights around).
Ultimately? It comes down to each individual GM to create and run a Wrath and Glory campaign that his or her players enjoy. Which includes, at the outset, saying what characters or concepts are disallowed. It is, after all, considered bad form to inform a player that they can’t play the Ork they *just* spent an hour creating...
Just like it’s bad form to tell players and GMs who enjoy the idea of mixed Imperial and Xenos groups that they “like 40kthe wrong way”. Because all you’re really saying is “Stop having fun, guys! You’re having fun in the wrong way!”
Edit(s): I hate posting from mobile devices...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/10 16:52:49
Alpharius wrote: Reminds me of the guy that drew all the Primarchs years back...
Naaah, these were really ugly compared to this comic. The artist is actually 'ascended fan' type of deal, promoted from drawing popular 40K fan webcomic to making actual 40K promo art...
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
You realize this is the plot of at least three Ciaphas Cain books? Say, Emperor's Finest, with Cain (comissar) exploring Space Hulk backed by Jurgen (IG), the Reclaimers SM squad, and AM allies?
There, case closed, anyone has complains for things that didn't actually happened in lots of books already?
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's going to be hard to justify these groups coming together without some sort of higher-up cohesion (Dark Heresy provided that with virtually unlimited Inquisitorial remit), but it's not as if a Commissar, a Guardsman, a Tech-Priest and a Space Marine are going to walk into the same bar looking for 'adventure'.
It's going to get even harder to justify when you start throwing Xenos into the mix.
I think the idea that the party needs to basically get together before the adventure starts is a major problem to good stories. There is nothing wrong with having your party meet up slowly during the adventure and naturally falling into working together due to their individual goals having mutual benefits.
So in my aforementioned "crash land on cultist controlled planet deep behind enemy lines" adventure, you could have the guardsman and commissar be the sole survivors from their own crashed troopship. Meanwhile the space marine scout, looking for somewhere to patch up his wounds after the firefight which got the rest of his forward observer squad killed, heads towards a hidden bunker which, as far as he is aware, is only known of by the Astartes. He is surprised, then, to find that an admech magos had found it already and is using it to store technological artifacts prior to transporting them offworld.
Then, have the IG SOS message be picked up by a comms set in the bunker, leading to the unification of the two parties. The IG want to get off world and rendezvous with their unit (preferably just in time to avoid the frontline fighting), the Space Marine wants to get to a communications system capable of getting a message to his chapter about some secret of the planet which is vitally important to the war effort and the magos wants to get their artifacts off world. So all of them agree to head to the nearest star port, as it is the most likely place to have all of those things and they stand a much better chance of getting there together.
As for a xenos, the Eldar were operating to tilt the outcome of the events to their favour, which required our characters to complete their goals. The Tau was part of a water caste diplomatic mission gone wrong and want to report back to their command with disturbing news about the nature of the planet. The Ork could be a mercenary (though it would be easier in my two scenarios for an ork character to join during the second adventure arc) etc.
That works great for a single scenario/campaign. But what if the players succeed in leaving the planet and want to keep playing after that? The Marine will have to return to his Chapter. The Commissar and trooper need to return to their regiment. The Magos will likely want to go back to hoarding tech. Justifying strange mixes of characters working together on a temporary basis is not difficult. But keeping such a party together for a longer campaign is much harder to do without grossly violating the fluff. The fluff has plenty examples of really different Imperial factions working together and even some where they cooperate with Xenos (or even Chaos). But every single one of these examples was on a very temporary basis. There are no examples of these groups staying with each other after the initial event that brought them together has been resolved, as is common in RPGs like D&D. They always go their own separate ways again. The only reason I can think of for these 4 characters to stick together is if they were all conscripted by an Inquisitor. I mean, you could handwave it in the name of fun and just have them stay together because reasons, but if you care about the fluff that is not possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/10 17:18:39
I mean, you could handwave it in the name of fun and just have them stay together because reasons, but if you care about the fluff that is not possible.
A simple translation of the above: "You're enjoying 40Kin the wrong way! Stop having fun!" It's the same argument that H.B.M.C. and His Master's Voice have been making. And honestly? If you aren't willing to bend fluff or use a willing suspension of disbelief to continue having fun with your chosen group of roleplayers/gaming buddies/whatever, that's on you and no one else.
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