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 Melissia wrote:
If you think that's bad, just look at any single thread where conscripts get mentioned. Mod handed out warning after warning and people still derailed threads over it.

I haven't received any warnings. Have you?

 Melissia wrote:
At the same time... they're still just guardsmen. The main problem with them is kill points. At the same time, guard really doesn't even have a reason to bother competing in kill points to begin with, it's not a very fair game mechanic.

Just don't play regular kill points scenarios if you want a competitive game. The design is inherently unfair.

 argonak wrote:
Veterans cost 6 points per man. The difference between Veterans and Scions is 1 point of save (carapace armor), and deep strike.

So you're already paying an extra 3 points per man to upgrade to scions. Their company commander version is also lame, as he has to give up a weapon option to be able to give two commands for the same price as a normal CC, and he doesn't even get an invuln save.

A Space Marine is 13 points base. He comes with a free boltgun, free bolt pistol. He has 3+ armor, T4, BS and WS 3+, an extra point of ld, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF, and he has a 24" rapid fire 1 s4 weapon.

A Scion with his HSLG (which costs 1 point) is 10 points. So you have a 3 point difference between a tactical space marine and a scion.

In my opinion, there isn't room to increase the cost of a scion without increasing the cost of a space marine. And if you take away their deep strike, then guard loses the only deep strike unit they have.

You can't compare vets to scions. A scions command squad with 4 plasmas and a prime is around 100 points, vets must be 10 men squads and without a vehicle they're useless. Which means they are extremely expensive compared to scions and can be targeted before they start doing their job unlike scions that appear wherever they want at the moment they want. Vets are not even remotely as effective as scions command squads.

Tactical squads also suck. Their best quality is the possibility of bringing a razorback with twin assault cannon as their dedicated transport, and the heavy/special weapons they can take which make them way more expensive, 25+ points per model and only a few of them can replace bolters while all the guys in scions command squads can take a plasma gun.

But you're right, scions points cost is ok. Their plasma gun's price should be increased, because scions without plasmas are not overpowered and are ok for 10 points.

 argonak wrote:

Shall we raise prices for guard command squads and veterans as well then?

No. BS3+ isn't the kicker - it's being able to deploy where needed, within rapid-fire range.

Veterans and normal Command Squads aren't an issue at the moment. If anything, they're probably a bit underpowered.

 argonak wrote:

I think the complaints would drop if we just eliminated command squads.

But why is that necessary? Wraithknights, Imperial Knights, Scatterbikes etc. were all OP i 7th, should GW have just removed those from their respective books?

 argonak wrote:
People use them as a suicide plasma unit, because they can deep strike in rapid fire range. If your "suicide" unit is minimum 150 points versus 64, I think the complaints would drop.

So what you're really saying is 'Imperial Guard shouldn't be allowed any nice things'.

 Blackie wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Veterans cost 6 points per man. The difference between Veterans and Scions is 1 point of save (carapace armor), and deep strike.

So you're already paying an extra 3 points per man to upgrade to scions. Their company commander version is also lame, as he has to give up a weapon option to be able to give two commands for the same price as a normal CC, and he doesn't even get an invuln save.

A Space Marine is 13 points base. He comes with a free boltgun, free bolt pistol. He has 3+ armor, T4, BS and WS 3+, an extra point of ld, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF, and he has a 24" rapid fire 1 s4 weapon.

A Scion with his HSLG (which costs 1 point) is 10 points. So you have a 3 point difference between a tactical space marine and a scion.

In my opinion, there isn't room to increase the cost of a scion without increasing the cost of a space marine. And if you take away their deep strike, then guard loses the only deep strike unit they have.

You can't compare vets to scions. A scions command squad with 4 plasmas and a prime is around 100 points, vets must be 10 men squads and without a vehicle they're useless. Which means they are extremely expensive compared to scions and can be targeted before they start doing their job unlike scions that appear wherever they want at the moment they want. Vets are not even remotely as effective as scions command squads.

Tactical squads also suck. Their best quality is the possibility of bringing a razorback with twin assault cannon as their dedicated transport, and the heavy/special weapons they can take which make them way more expensive, 25+ points per model and only a few of them can replace bolters while all the guys in scions command squads can take a plasma gun.

But you're right, scions points cost is ok. Their plasma gun's price should be increased, because scions without plasmas are not overpowered and are ok for 10 points.

Tac squads got a direct upgrade from last edition and are pretty strong. Comparing them to scions is a bad comparison because they functurn differently. Are scions better possibly are tac squads bad no.

Tac squads compared to scions
Better armour so tankier 16%
Better toughness so tankier again against most anti infantry shooting 16%
Better strength so 16% more effective in most CC
Has an Obsec equivalent so much better at holding objectives till chapter approved at least
No HQ tax so more cost effective
Can take a lascannon so huge range.
Boltgun are an excellent anti conscript gun for their price
Having only 1 Lascannon means that 4 13 pt models die before the 38pt model giving it a lot of cost effective protection.
Thank's to chapter tactics (salamanders) you may reroll one to hit and to wound role for that squad making that lascannon one of the most effective lascannons in the game for its points.
Less of a priority target so it can make it a points back over a couple of rounds of shooting

Scions
Mobility thanks to deepstrike
Better damage output in one round of shooting
HQ tax
Less tough
Has to make its points back across one round of shooting because it won't be alive next turn.
Weak if your opponent has no multiwound models to make full use of the plasmas 2nd damage

One is a defensive unit not designed to suicide one is an offensive suicide unit it is not a fair comparison

U02dah4 wrote:
Better armour so tankier 16%
Better toughness so tankier again against most anti infantry shooting 16%

They are more survivable vs most anti-infantry shooting but per pt that difference is smaller. Not insignificant, but not as good as it seems.

U02dah4 wrote:
Better strength so 16% more effective in most CC

They are better in melee, but again it's a smaller difference per pt.

U02dah4 wrote:
Has an Obsec equivalent so much better at holding objectives till chapter approved at least

That rule is basically already out, it will be used in ITC. Regular scions are one of only a few troop choices that will be able to deepstrike onto an objective, seems pretty good.

U02dah4 wrote:
No HQ tax so more cost effective

Kind of, but it's not like the tempestor prime is useless. He typically gets to buff a command squad and a regular squad when they drop. That's basically an additional plasma scion in terms of additional hits and also prevents almost all hit rolls of 1.

U02dah4 wrote:
Boltgun are an excellent anti conscript gun for their price

Not really better than the hotshot lasgun, the bolter has a range advantage but the lasgun gets more kills per hit, especially per pt.

U02dah4 wrote:
Can take a lascannon so huge range.
Having only 1 Lascannon means that 4 13 pt models die before the 38pt model giving it a lot of cost effective protection.
Thank's to chapter tactics (salamanders) you may reroll one to hit and to wound role for that squad making that lascannon one of the most effective lascannons in the game for its points.

If you want a unit from SM which is just going to camp an objective in your deployment zone this isn't too bad.

U02dah4 wrote:
Less of a priority target so it can make it a points back over a couple of rounds of shooting.

I don't know if this can be counted as a plus. It just means that they do little damage compared to their durability, and on top of that they do little damage compared to their cost. If their durability was amazing I could get behind them as objective-campers or bubblewrap but they simply aren't tough enough per pt.

Meanwhile the scions are doing god's work by blowing gak up all across the board, it's rare to face an opponent with no efficient plasma targets. They easily make their points back in one turn by shooting at predators, stormravens, terminators etc.

Scions at 10 points are fine.
The easy fix is to increase the cost of plasma guns for them, the tyranid codex is full of those exceptions.
AM pays less for special weapons due to bs4+ and low durability. In general, it stand to reason that they get less use out of special weapons compared to SM, so it is good design that they pay less for weapons.
In the case of scions, this hypotesis is not true, they get a lot out of special weapons, so they should pay the SM costs, or close to it.

As I said scion have to make it back in 1 turn or they die because their glass cannons. High damage output low toughness targets are priorities and your enemy will shoot them to bits.

The strongest lists I've seen not featureing a primarch be it guard or orks have been almost entirely infantry not everything's a marine or a tau commander and if plasma spam is a common sight I'd expect more of it because it effectively halves the impact of scions

My point was that there are a lot of reasons that tacs arn't bad. Each of those reasons may only be a small bit but collectively they add up. However the role is different.

Sossen, if you're so sad about tac Marines being what they are, then start playing a different army. Sorry your main troops choice can't just look at a Target and will it off the board.

Tac Marines have been nearly identical since I started playing in 3rd edition. Why are so many Marine players crying about them now? I think they had the same stats and were 15 pts back then and they're 13 now. Their lackluster performance should be no surprise. And didn't the codex drop see points reductions practically across the board? Are we really trying to cry about increasing Scion plasma guns by 3pts each? I'm fine with that, but people are still going to be butt hurt!

Back on topic, which by the way is NOT "Scions are broken, how do we fix them?" It's how do we fare without them.

The answer is we do fine but it's more boring. I use Scions because they are the most mobile unit we have, I love my old Stormtrooper models and Kasrkin, and they are cool. So I'm going to use them anyway. Same reason I use my big ugly metal Ogryn and original rough riders.

Tacs have been gak forever. This is the best they have ever been and they're still gak. Hell one of the features of 5th ed ba was zero tacs.

I use elysians. Same idea only 5 points per model.

Need the mobility. Without elite drop troops guard would have a very tough time grabbing objectives.

I remember playing 7th and just never moving all game....thrilling.

If you don't want to use conscripts try using bullgryns. Bring 6. Bring a priest for +1 attacks. A astropath for +1 save. Maybe yarrick beside them to re-roll 1's. Ultra competitive? Nah. Fun? I think so! Make a pretty scary screen unit and you don't need to roll 200 dice.

 Colonel Cross wrote:

Back on topic, which by the way is NOT "Scions are broken, how do we fix them?" It's how do we fare without them.

The answer is we do fine but it's more boring. I use Scions because they are the most mobile unit we have, I love my old Stormtrooper models and Kasrkin, and they are cool. So I'm going to use them anyway. Same reason I use my big ugly metal Ogryn and original rough riders.

Yup. Remove Scions and conscripts and it's back to the days of "okay, I set up my static gunline across from you. I shoot at you until you don't have any other mobile units, which is when I win, unless you make it to assault first, which is when I lose. If you have long range shooting and can blow up my artillery enough that I can't shoot you off the table (>50% odds) then we tie. Hooray!" That was common enough in 5th that it was the reason why I started playing power blobs and using stormtroopers back then.

You can mix that up a little with infantry squads with power weapons, but without the combined squads rule, power blobs still aren't the deceptively unscary surprise that they used to be.

Marines have it hard they have to pay for transports now and that big reduction and adjustment for them. Marines have been the golden boys for a while and their not now unless you include a primarch

But on topic Rough riders still give you plenty of mobility and their <regiment> when we get regiment bonuses

IG can use Valkyries for mobility still. They work well enough.


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U02dah4 wrote:
Marines have it hard they have to pay for transports now and that big reduction and adjustment for them. Marines have been the golden boys for a while and their not now unless you include a primarch

I'm BA, chief. There's no adjustment for me at all. The marines weren't the golden boys. Their formations and superfriends were. Marines themselves are crappy as ever.

My First Army was BA so I feel for you at the moment BA feels like a lemartes death company imperium sideboard. But we haven't had a codex yet. However BA being underpowered compared to SM because of a lack of formations and special rules is nothing new.

The codex won't fix anything. I'm calling it now.

So your admission of them being "underpowered" underscores my point. The base marine is fundamentally not useful because 40K punishes generalists.

Martel732 wrote:
IG can use Valkyries for mobility still. They work well enough.

Work well enough for what? I can't talk you guys into trying Rhinos. What do you think a transport that costs what two Rhinos do for half the carry capacity and 14 wounds is going to do for gaining ground, particularly for a horde army?

No BA in general not tacs why take a marine with no special rules when a SM player can take an almost identical marine in a different paint scheme with a chapter tactic, relic, better warlord traits, more strategems and a primarch.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG can use Valkyries for mobility still. They work well enough.

Work well enough for what? I can't talk you guys into trying Rhinos. What do you think a transport that costs what two Rhinos do for half the carry capacity and 14 wounds is going to do for gaining ground, particularly for a horde army?

I use Rhinos. What the hell are you talking about?

Martel732 wrote:
The codex won't fix anything. I'm calling it now.

So your admission of them being "underpowered" underscores my point. The base marine is fundamentally not useful because 40K punishes generalists.

To be fair, this edition punishes elite units pretty hard too. Look at terminators / GK.

U02dah4 wrote:
No BA in general not tacs why take a marine with no special rules when a SM player can take an almost identical marine in a different paint scheme with a chapter tactic, relic, better warlord traits, more strategems and a primarch.

Why take a marine period in 40K? The answer used to be to get a free transport or be life support for superfriends. What's the answer now? There is none. The chapter tactics don't fix the fundamental conceptual problems of generalists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The codex won't fix anything. I'm calling it now.

So your admission of them being "underpowered" underscores my point. The base marine is fundamentally not useful because 40K punishes generalists.

To be fair, this edition punishes elite units pretty hard too. Look at terminators / GK.

Terminators have also always been gak. The GK also required a Warddex to be effective. Generalists = crap.

Martel732 wrote:

I use Rhinos. What the hell are you talking about?

I was referring to the 40+ pages of disagreement on the use of rhinos (amongst other things) in the myriad other conscript threads.

It might not have been you specifically, but the overwhelming takeaway from that experience was that no one must use them.

I use them, because sometimes Im actually hauling 2 X 5 marines. They are very effective protection, but do NOTHING to solve marines' throw weight problem. You are also paying 50% the cost of a conscript blob just to transport your ineffective marines to shooting range of the conscripts.

Rhinos are very effective vs Nids and Orks, and even other marines, but don't provide a real boost vs IG. Too much effort to deal with 25% of their list.

I've already tried many BA combos vs hordes, and it's just a world of gak. Especially hordes that shoot.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sossen, if you're so sad about tac Marines being what they are, then start playing a different army.

I'm simply explaining the facts, there's no judgment in what I'm saying. It's a game with rules, tac marines have rules that limit their usefulness in a competitive setting. That doesn't mean that I don't like the models or avoid them when playing casual games.

sossen wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sossen, if you're so sad about tac Marines being what they are, then start playing a different army.

I'm simply explaining the facts, there's no judgment in what I'm saying. It's a game with rules, tac marines have rules that prohibit their usefulness in a competitive setting. That doesn't mean that I don't like the models or avoid them when playing casual games.

Pretty much this.

Why not switch the cost of meltas and plasma? suddenly melta becomes more reasonable and plasma has a bit of a tax on it (because why take melta when plasma does that job better for less points?)

Martel732 wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
Sossen, if you're so sad about tac Marines being what they are, then start playing a different army.

I'm simply explaining the facts, there's no judgment in what I'm saying. It's a game with rules, tac marines have rules that prohibit their usefulness in a competitive setting. That doesn't mean that I don't like the models or avoid them when playing casual games.

Pretty much this.

Well my point being folks who play other armies come into imperial guard threads and derail them with complaints of their own units and comparing apples to oranges. I'm just getting tired of it.

 Blackie wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Veterans cost 6 points per man. The difference between Veterans and Scions is 1 point of save (carapace armor), and deep strike.

So you're already paying an extra 3 points per man to upgrade to scions. Their company commander version is also lame, as he has to give up a weapon option to be able to give two commands for the same price as a normal CC, and he doesn't even get an invuln save.

A Space Marine is 13 points base. He comes with a free boltgun, free bolt pistol. He has 3+ armor, T4, BS and WS 3+, an extra point of ld, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF, and he has a 24" rapid fire 1 s4 weapon.

A Scion with his HSLG (which costs 1 point) is 10 points. So you have a 3 point difference between a tactical space marine and a scion.

In my opinion, there isn't room to increase the cost of a scion without increasing the cost of a space marine. And if you take away their deep strike, then guard loses the only deep strike unit they have.

You can't compare vets to scions. A scions command squad with 4 plasmas and a prime is around 100 points, vets must be 10 men squads and without a vehicle they're useless. Which means they are extremely expensive compared to scions and can be targeted before they start doing their job unlike scions that appear wherever they want at the moment they want. Vets are not even remotely as effective as scions command squads.

Tactical squads also suck. Their best quality is the possibility of bringing a razorback with twin assault cannon as their dedicated transport, and the heavy/special weapons they can take which make them way more expensive, 25+ points per model and only a few of them can replace bolters while all the guys in scions command squads can take a plasma gun.

But you're right, scions points cost is ok. Their plasma gun's price should be increased, because scions without plasmas are not overpowered and are ok for 10 points.

Veterans have command squads with the nearly same weapon options (excluding HSLGs and HSVGs and gaining shotguns). They're a perfectly adequate comparison. Of course they're not as effective, they cost 3 points less.

The Scions are paying 3 points +1 to their save and deep strike. 3 Points gets marines a jump pack with deep strike, fly, and 10" movement. Excuse me if I don't think scions are overcosted.

Tactical squads suck? Compared to what? They're better than scions in a ton of ways, and only for a few more points.

Well said.

Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated. I run them all day every day.

You can run them barebones for 40 points
Better BS than conscripts
Can have Special/heavy weapons
Sarge can have a power weapon
They fit in transports
Give you more tactical flexibility than conscripts

As a bonus, they make it easy to fill out Brigades and Battalions for cheap.

I'm not trying to imply that they are better than conscripts, but when you are playing a friendly game they will get you through. I don't want to spend forever moving 50-man blobs anyhow. Only in a super-competitive game will I consider that.

CplPunishment wrote:
Personally, I think the humble infantry squad is overlooked and under-appreciated.

Oh, I think they're definitely more useful than conscripts. Conscripts basically excel at exactly one thing, but the infantry squad can do that plenty adequately enough and can also do more than that.

sossen wrote:
I haven't received any warnings. Have you?

No, I wasn't one of the ones dragging threads off topic; but I did see numerous posts by mods, or edits by mods, showing redtext saying in various ways "stop dragging the thread off topic".