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2017/08/17 01:44:44
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
At this point, I'm now realizing we aren't going to have a productive discussion because you're more interested in (like in the Charlottesville thread that YOU got locked) trying to showcase your knowledge of historical minutiae than to actually engage with someone else.
Toodles Manchu. It's been real.
2017/08/17 01:55:00
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
ulgurstasta wrote: Is it beside the point when one side is actually murdering people?
You dont have to love antifa (god knows I dont), but you cant play the "They are equally bad" card when one side is actually killing people
Not for want of trying. When Antifa attacked the G20, hundreds of police were injured. They don't deserve any credit just because none of the people they've set on fire have died yet.
In my eyes, People who engage in a protest and get into scuffles with the police are still better then people who go out an actively murder civilians, but each to his own.
And if they did injure hundreds, it sounds like they had plenty of opportunity to kill if they so wished
As I said, you dont have to like or even agree with Antifa, just acknowledge that they aren't the moral equivalent as murdering Nazis.
Have you seen what these %$@#$%@#^@%&^@%^_&@(_^(_@$%^( are doing to the icons of our beloved Wings and Lions?!?!
2017/08/17 02:00:06
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
Manchu wrote: In fact, I did not lock that thread. But that's another good example of your off-base attacks.
I did not say you locked that thread, but rather that you got it locked. Words and their intentions matter, right? After all the guys flashing white power signs, shouting "Blood and Soil" and other various neo-Nazi slogans aren't circa 1930s Germany...so they can't be Nazis!
You were a major contributor to the off-topic discussion that evolved within that thread, much like you have been here and in similar threads when it comes to US political matters. You're more than welcome to assume that my "attacks" are off-base, but the base that I'm laying down is that you have been a very willing participant to these threads being wildly off-topic in many cases when it is a subject you disagree with--and I'm now starting to wonder if that is intentional.
Kanluwen wrote:A witch hunt implies that there is no logic, only zeal.
I wonder if said witch hunters thought this too, or if they genuinely thought their arguments logical.
To be fair, that's why they referred to themselves as Inquisitors or referred to themselves as judges, etc.
They would go out of their way to make themselves seem to be the rational, reasonable, and learned party despite the fact that they were trying and executing people for magical powers or collusion with a demonic power.
But that's going to genuinely be all from me on this topic. You guys can have fun with this discussion I guess.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/17 02:11:35
2017/08/17 02:15:18
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
In a discussion about political demonstrations, the motivation and strategies of the protesters are squarely on-topic. If you want to chat with me about the rules of the site or moderation, feel free to take it up in a PM.
daedalus -
There is a logic to most things. In the case of the actual witch trials, there was legal reasoning. The same can be said of the metaphorical witch hunts we've seen in the US. Oftentimes, the rationale is defending national security. It is usually true to the extent of reasonable plausiblity. The US government was actually infiltrated by Soviet spies in the mid-20th century. The resulting paranoia was no doubt taken full advantage of by ambitious if not noble politicians.
There are some parallels here. In this case, ambitious people are hoping to capitalize on fear and resentment. But of course, that doesn't mean white supremacy is a phantom problem. Nor is the deteriortaion of an American consensus on issues like free speech a phantom problem.Neither problem, however, warrants allowing ourselves to be radicalized.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/17 02:28:21
In a discussion about political demonstrations, the motivation and strategies of the protesters are squarely on-topic. If you want to chat with me about the rules of the site or moderation, feel free to take it up in a PM.
that's a great point.
On the one hand you had the klan, confederate and Nazi's forming a mob with torches and probably a few pitchforks, On the other were people against racism and fascism.
the Nazi's killed a woman and injured 20 others. the other side didn't.
clearly this was a simple case of good vs evil. I shouldn't have to say it, but the Nazi's are the evil side. it's amazing how many are siding and defending Nazi's now and trying to paint those who are for equality as being worse than Nazi's. If anyone ever finds themselves at a rally or a protest and the Nazi's show up next to you, it's a safe bet you're on the wrong side. As the confederates allowed the Nazi's to remain and marched with them, they can easily be labeled as Nazi sympathisers.
2017/08/17 02:34:16
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
I haven't seen people defending Nazis ITT. Or neo-Nazis. Or white supremacists. (Quite thereverse.) Similarly, no one has claimed that being in favor of equality is worse than being a Nazi.
Manchu wrote: I haven't seen people defending Nazis ITT. Or neo-Nazis. Or white supremacists. (Quite thereverse.) Similarly, no one has claimed that being in favor of equality is worse than being a Nazi.
The hard part is defending the rights of people most of us would rather just see "go away". The "nazis" (just gonna call em all that) had a permit, they had their protest, they are allowed to do that. No matter how vile or vulgar they are, attacking them is not legal. I am surprised (and glad) that the carnage was not worse. There were a lot of armed folks there.
2017/08/17 02:46:30
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
Manchu wrote: Like I said, if Richard Spencer can get the ACLU to have to step up and defend the legal rights of white supremacists, that's a victory for him.
I have always felt these folks are best ignored to wither on the vine. No press, no response, let a handful of rednecks be redneck. These movements belong on the fringes at best. The US is certainly not the weak and tottering Weimar Republic, these people are in no way able to take over.
2017/08/17 02:59:16
Subject: Re:Reaper Miniatures fires an employee for criticizing militant group "Antifa"
whembly wrote: I'm not sure that's what happened here though...
Saying following shouldn't be contraversial:
Nazis and their ideology are despicable human beings who should be condemned and rejected at every opportunity.
(snip)
Antifa are despicable human beings, whose ideology should be condemned and rejected
Nope, feth that. Antifa and the Nazis are not morally equivalent.
It is possible, in fact it is necessary, to accept that antifa do bad things and are not a positive force, without pretending they're equal to the Nazis.
I agree with your other point in the thread that both groups have the right to peacefully assemble, but your attempt to paint both Nazis and the groups that oppose Nazis as morally equivalent is really wrong. Dangerously wrong.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2017/08/17 03:06:12
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
Manchu wrote: Like I said, if Richard Spencer can get the ACLU to have to step up and defend the legal rights of white supremacists, that's a victory for him.
I have always felt these folks are best ignored to wither on the vine. No press, no response, let a handful of rednecks be redneck. These movements belong on the fringes at best. The US is certainly not the weak and tottering Weimar Republic, these people are in no way able to take over.
On the other hand, it emboldens bigots and normalizes their behavior. For the minorities they target, this is a big problem because it often does lead to violence, violence that sympathetic authority figures are slow to quash. This was a big problem in school, and as a substitute teacher I was surprised how acceptable kids found it to use the term "Jew" as an insult.
Manchu wrote: I haven't seen people defending Nazis ITT. Or neo-Nazis. Or white supremacists. (Quite thereverse.) Similarly, no one has claimed that being in favor of equality is worse than being a Nazi.
Trump claimed that through his entire press conference. where he merely said "Nazi's are bad" then in the same sentence went on to invent the "alt-left" and implied they started the entire riot by charging the Nazi's with sticks. Trump of course leaving out all the weapons the Nazi's brought.
Even mitt rmoney called trump on it
"No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 03:08:03
2017/08/17 03:07:44
Subject: Reaper Miniatures fires an employee for criticizing militant group "Antifa"
Rosebuddy wrote: The logic of liberalism breaks down completely when dealing with nazis, tho.
If liberalism can't survive any form of illiberal thought, then liberalism doesn't actually exist. Obviously that's a crock. The whole point of liberalism is that if all ideas are freely and openly debated, the vast majority of people will choose values that are tolerant and positive.
If we don't believe that, if we think there are some ideas that need to be shut with violence, then we have just abandoned liberalism in that one instance, we've abandoned it entirely.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2017/08/17 03:09:26
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
Manchu wrote: Like I said, if Richard Spencer can get the ACLU to have to step up and defend the legal rights of white supremacists, that's a victory for him.
I have always felt these folks are best ignored to wither on the vine. No press, no response, let a handful of rednecks be redneck. These movements belong on the fringes at best. The US is certainly not the weak and tottering Weimar Republic, these people are in no way able to take over.
On the other hand, it emboldens bigots and normalizes their behavior. For the minorities they target, this is a big problem because it often does lead to violence, violence that sympathetic authority figures are slow to quash. This was a big problem in school, and as a substitute teacher I was surprised how acceptable kids found it to use the term "Jew" as an insult.
Their behavior is already sadly normal in our country, it wont change that. Their violence must be punished severely and if those in authority cant or wont, they must be replaced with those who will. We cant legislate away A$$---- but we can deprive them of the publicity and attention that they crave.
2017/08/17 03:12:34
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
You are right, fascism poses no actual political threat to the US system. The rhetoric has gone overboard. But if this past weekend should have any takeaway, it's that among white supremacists are dangerous terrorists. Fields's responsibility for Heyer's death and many others' injuries should remind us that radicalization is a real threat to our society.
sebster -
White supremacy is unquestionably worse than ___. What? What ideology goes in that blank. Antifa stands for ... it's hard to say, and I think that is the result of happenstance in part (there are certainly a lot of people motivated for personal reasons, including self-deluded radicalization) but I think it is also the result of a political strategy to prevent them from being pinned down.
Now, white supremacy on the other hand is a known evil. And it is one of the greatest evils plaguing the US, although it has been in its most robust forms defeated. Nevertheless, it still exists and not just in radicalized, overtly violent forms. So it is hard to imagine that whatever goes in the blank above can be worse.
So now we come back to that blank and why it is so powerful. It is a space for centrists scandalized by radicalization to insert their worst fears. Thus, Antifa plays into Spencer's media strategy. My work colleague who theorized that Antifa is an alt-right conspiracy is ... reaching. But I can see her logic, given how well Spencer has co-opted them as accomplices.
Manchu wrote: I haven't seen people defending Nazis ITT. Or neo-Nazis. Or white supremacists. (Quite thereverse.) Similarly, no one has claimed that being in favor of equality is worse than being a Nazi.
Trump claimed that through his entire press conference. where he merely said "Nazi's are bad" then in the same sentence went on to invent the "alt-left" and implied they started the entire riot by charging the Nazi's with sticks. Trump of course leaving out all the weapons the Nazi's brought.
Even mitt rmoney called trump on it
"No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes."
The nazis brought a lot of weapons including guns, yet no one was shot. The nazis are easy to call racist and bigots, they dont deny it, antifa are also nazis, just because they claim to be fighting them, it doesn't change that they too are violent racists and bigots themselves. This was a riot of two groups of nazis fighting it out, just one side is lying about being nazis and the other is obvious.
2017/08/17 03:32:22
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
whembly wrote: I'm not sure that's what happened here though...
Saying following shouldn't be contraversial:
Nazis and their ideology are despicable human beings who should be condemned and rejected at every opportunity.
(snip)
Antifa are despicable human beings, whose ideology should be condemned and rejected
Nope, feth that. Antifa and the Nazis are not morally equivalent.
It is possible, in fact it is necessary, to accept that antifa do bad things and are not a positive force, without pretending they're equal to the Nazis.
I agree with your other point in the thread that both groups have the right to peacefully assemble, but your attempt to paint both Nazis and the groups that oppose Nazis as morally equivalent is really wrong. Dangerously wrong.
Seb, please point out exactly where I stated they're both equivalent.
I'll wait...
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2017/08/17 03:54:56
Subject: Re:Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
whembly wrote: I'm not sure that's what happened here though...
Saying following shouldn't be contraversial:
Nazis and their ideology are despicable human beings who should be condemned and rejected at every opportunity.
(snip)
Antifa are despicable human beings, whose ideology should be condemned and rejected
Nope, feth that. Antifa and the Nazis are not morally equivalent.
It is possible, in fact it is necessary, to accept that antifa do bad things and are not a positive force, without pretending they're equal to the Nazis.
I agree with your other point in the thread that both groups have the right to peacefully assemble, but your attempt to paint both Nazis and the groups that oppose Nazis as morally equivalent is really wrong. Dangerously wrong.
The irony of people here spamming out 'moral equivalency' and trying to use the 'not as bad as' equivocation is just pathetic and irrelevant non-argument.
The lesser of two evils is still evil.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 03:59:16
2017/08/17 03:59:14
Subject: Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
Kilkrazy wrote: In my view, it started when the Republican Party took a decisive swing to the right under New Gringrich and the New American Century project. Why they did this I don't knwo, but it was done at a time when the US public as a whole had been growing more left-wing, and the lefty tendency continued until today we have general acceptance of gay marriage and so on.
So the Republican Party divorced itself from the mainstream of society and to maintain its grip on power had to increasingly pander to extremist views, blaming immigrants, blacks and social security mammas for the country's supposed woes, and fiddle around with issues like abortion, LGBT lavatories and the cramming of creationism into public schools.
I haven't quoted the whole thing, but that was a wonderful post, thanks.
Political, and against mod warning, so I've cut it. I'll pm it to Killkrazy instead.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/17 04:49:17
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2017/08/17 04:16:43
Subject: Re:Clark NOT Fired by Reaper Over Antifa Criticism
