Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks. They're the comic relief of this universe, when it doesn't need any. It's like when Peter Jackson made the Lord of the Rings movies, and had Gimli be comic relief in the Two Towers, which is largely a very dark story. The fate of humanity sits on the edge of a knife, we could go one way or the other, and then WAAAAGHHH it's NONSENSE FUN TIME! LOOK I'M RIDING A SQUIGGOTH YOU GUYS!
From a gameplay standpoint: Imperial Guard.
In any game, you should feel like your victory or defeat is at least tied to some of the decisions you make. With guard I don't get that. They set up their gunline and don't really move. It's the most boring, uninspired gameplay, and it's made even more annoying by the brutally undercosted units they field. With the keyword system, every imperium army is full of imperial guard. And I mean why not? You can get a full battalion for under 300 points. At what point does it become a 1700 point game, +your mandatory guard regiment?
Orks make a lot more sense once you realize that "Grim Dark" originated as a comedic device when 40k was first conceived. If you watch Robocop, Mad Max, Robot Jox, Total Recall, or read Judge Dredd or Canticles for Liebowitz, the whole "Everything is insanely depressing and nihilistic and over the top inhumane" shtick was basically comedic.
And that's how 40k started. The orks have just...stayed actually consistent to their roots.
The very first Inquisitor introduced in the fluff looked like Indiana Jones in a trenchcoat and was named "Obi-Wan Clouseau" or something like that.
Yeah, when I see the term "Grimdark" used as a tantrum about how 40k should be totally serious, I see a fan that has lost sight of the real substance of this universe. You can't take 40k too seriously. Thats something even GW forgets many times. When they start to take the universe too seriously you see how absurd it is.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Marmatag wrote: The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks.
Orks are the most grimdark of all the factions.
You know the old screed for 40k. Everyone does.
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Orks have forgotten their history, forgotten what made them and don't really care much for technology and science save that which they can apply to war. They have no care for progress nor understanding, what is there to progress to that they desire, what is there to understand that they don't already understand perfectly? They care not for peace, for such a thing is anathema to their very existence. Orks desire, create, and are war eternal. Orks are the eternity of carnage and slaughter, under the guidance of their thirsting gods. They seem light-hearted and jocular not because they aren't grimdark. They are the embodiment of the grim darkness of the far future. War, devastation, waste, mass killing, without end and without a goal beyond the continuation of more war.
And they wouldn't want it any other way. They aren't trying to save anything, like the Imperium. They aren't trying to achieve some glorious end goal, like the Eldar. They aren't trying to transform the galaxy in to something they see as better, like Chaos. They aren't building a bastion of civilization for future generations to benefit from, like Tau. They aren't trying to resurrect the past, like the Necrons. They aren't even trying to just feed and consume to survive, like the Tyranids.
Because, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war; and so, Orks rejoice, and thrive, and conquer, for the sheer sake of war. Orks are 40k. All its silliness, all its grimdarkness, all the good, the bad, and the ugly, are distilled down in to the concept and execution of the faction.
I would even argue that, without Orks, 40k has no identity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 15:47:37
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
A faction that is entirely, at best, one special unit for other armies.
Imagine if they released a 'First Company' codex and it was literally all sternguard with only one weapon option. "Sternguard Boltmasters hold the line with volley fire from their storm bolters while Sternguard Burninators use their combi-meltas to apply lethal force exactly where its needed most" type of stuff. That's the Sisters of Silence. No HQ, no troops, just one elite squad that can have all flamers, all bolters, or all greatswords - but they have to have different names!
Beyond that, the kit only exists to tease Sisters of Battle players, and anyone else putting up with badly aging kits like Eldar and chaos space marines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 15:57:59
Marmatag wrote: The entire universe is supposed to be grim-dark, and is largely consistent in that regard. Then you have Orks.
Orks are the most grimdark of all the factions.
You know the old screed for 40k. Everyone does.
Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.
Orks have forgotten their history, forgotten what made them and don't really care much for technology and science save that which they can apply to war. They have no care for progress nor understanding, what is there to progress to that they desire, what is there to understand that they don't already understand perfectly? They care not for peace, for such a thing is anathema to their very existence. Orks desire, create, and are war eternal. Orks are the eternity of carnage and slaughter, under the guidance of their thirsting gods. They seem light-hearted and jocular not because they aren't grimdark. They are the embodiment of the grim darkness of the far future. War, devastation, waste, mass killing, without end and without a goal beyond the continuation of more war.
And they wouldn't want it any other way. They aren't trying to save anything, like the Imperium. They aren't trying to achieve some glorious end goal, like the Eldar. They aren't trying to transform the galaxy in to something they see as better, like Chaos. They aren't building a bastion of civilization for future generations to benefit from, like Tau. They aren't trying to resurrect the past, like the Necrons. They aren't even trying to just feed and consume to survive, like the Tyranids.
Because, in the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war; and so, Orks rejoice, and thrive, and conquer, for the sheer sake of war. Orks are 40k. All its silliness, all its grimdarkness, all the good, the bad, and the ugly, are distilled down in to the concept and execution of the faction.
I would even argue that, without Orks, 40k has no identity.
I can agree with most of this - while I may not call them the most grimdark of the factions, they are truly an enemy that is impossible to defeat, and will continue to thrive off slaughtering and pillaging the galaxy regardless of whatever comes next in 40k. They cannot be reasoned with (in the long term at least), and they cannot be destroyed. All that you can hope for is that a Warlord like The Beast won't come by and unite them into something truly galaxy threatening. Mind you though, with the way Ghazgkull is going, it's only a matter of time...
Their comic relief is an important aspect in both the faction and 40k in general, but that shouldn't take away from any of the terrible things they do to the worlds they invade. If anything, you could argue the comedic element is there to help people get behind what are essentially the galaxy's greatest pillagers and murderers, or dull down that fact a little.
And this is personal preference. A lot of people loved the Carnage story arc in Spider Man. I didn't really care for it, it's hard to get behind a villain that has no motivation other than chaos or lust for blood. Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Marmatag wrote: Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
On the contrary. That's exactly why they embody it.
Everyone else tries to be noblebright, with the possible exception of Tyranids-- and even they are less grimdark than Orks are, because there's hints Tyranids are fighting for hte purpose of survival. Orks don't bother with any of that. They take the grimdark and they embrace it wholeheartedly.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 16:20:10
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Marmatag wrote: And this is personal preference. A lot of people loved the Carnage story arc in Spider Man. I didn't really care for it, it's hard to get behind a villain that has no motivation other than chaos or lust for blood. Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.
40k is LOTR-style high fantasy in space crossed with Starship Troopers/Forever War pointless attritional warfare, Judge Dredd 6000 story mega-cities, where the biggest threat is an incursion from the dimension of the 1980s heavy metal album cover. Your complaint is that one faction's fluff did not forget how pants-on-head ridiculous it is and continues to embrace the lighter tone that the setting had when it was originally created.
You're like a Star Wars fan that will only watch Revenge of the Sith and Rogue One because the original trilogy is made for little babies and puppets are stupid.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Amusingly, Orks have gotten a lot less light-hearted over the years. Take this for instance:
You could put a helmet on that and call it a Chaos Lord. But instead it's an Ork. And, frankly, far more intimidating than any Chaos Lord manages to be for his complete lack of humanity.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 16:29:22
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Melissia wrote: Amusingly, Orks have gotten a lot less light-hearted over the years. Take this for instance:
You could put a helmet on that and call it a Chaos Lord. But instead it's an Ork. And, frankly, far more intimidating than any Chaos Lord manages to be for his complete lack of humanity.
This is Fantasy, but I always use this as an example of "How Greenskins/Orks REALLY ARE in the universe" vs "How the internet hyperbole makes you see them"
Just a giant rush of total destruction. How isn't this brutal? Even a Khorne Chaos Warrior beg for mercy! And what he gets? His skull crashed by a Orc hammer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 16:33:01
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Ha. Nice. The main difference between 40k and that, is the troll gets replaced by a deff dread, and the orks are firing guns wildly as they charge until they can get stuck in and chop things up.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Marmatag wrote: Orks don't embody grim dark in the slightest because they aren't vested one way or another in the outcome of their battles.
On the contrary. That's exactly why they embody it.
I think what he means is that grimdark goes with suffering and despair but orks never sound despair or suffering or distressed in any way. They sound like they are having a jolly good time. So, when there are humans involved they can work as grimdark, but orks by themselves, all being so very happy about that next battle? Lacks the "people feel bad" thingy .
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Melissia wrote: Ha. Nice. The main difference between 40k and that, is the troll gets replaced by a deff dread, and the orks are firing guns wildly as they charge until they can get stuck in and chop things up.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Elbows wrote: While we're posting cinematics...this is the best one I've ever seen done for a GW franchise IP.
Let's agree to disagree.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Chaos of all flavors. There are many reasons but mostly it's the fluff; they are the biggest mary sues of the setting. I mean, it's always the same:
Shoot a cultist dead with a lasgun? "lol just as planned".
Conquer them in a decisive battle? "lol just as planned".
Win a major system wide war against them? "lol just as planned".
I'm not buying this. Like any armed force, chaos isn't some invincible army that *some* fluffwriters like to portray them as. I remember how they used to be just one of the factions. Yes, they were a major threat but so were all factions.
Other thing I don't like about them is how some people interpret their purpose and methods. How some people claim there's moral ambiguity to chaos. Excuse me but what moral ambiguity? Are we reading the same fluff? All they do is kill, maim and burn. I have literally never chanced upon official fluff where someone who fights for chaos did anything that wasn't utterly selfish and/or thoughtlessly destructive. Champions of chaos are pretty much nothing but R-rated saturday morning cartoon villains. Usually, the argument I hear is: "But chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing." This would be a good argument if this was D&D... but this isn't D&D. (Even if this was D&D, everyone who worships chaos would obviously be required to convert to Chaotic Evil as soon as possible. There's no way a chaos space marine could be Chaotic Neutral, let alone Chaotic Good.)
Also? If you ask me, their miniatures are ugly... sure, it's by design but rotted tentacled faces and spikes everywhere aren't my cup of tea.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
Well it certainly would be far more scary considering as humans we can at least empathize with chaos marines as its all based on extreme human needs
I don't think the same way. Where the older necrons more scary as a totally alien race of Terminator machines that didn't show emotions or even conscience of what they where doing? Or are the new one Tomb Kings in Space more scary?
For me, the totally alien presence that is just killing you for reasons that you can't comprehend is much pretty dark. I'm not saying that ... I don't know. A group of humans canibals that are that way because they are corrupted by Khorne in their bloodlust, isn't dark too.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/24 17:12:35
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Marmatag wrote: Would Carnage have been better if he started using z's all over the place, and stopped in the middle of a fight to start cracking jokes like Jerry Seinfield? "What's the deal with slaughterzzzz, anyone wanna go Krump and trade TEEF?"
Carnage did crack jokes. I distinctly remember him murdering a couple after ripping off the roof of their car, admonishing them for having the AC on when 'this is convertible weather!'
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 17:16:45
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
On the table in 8th edition (because I play elite armies and Orks make my butt hurt)
And in the fluff, I find them, even with their arguable grim darkness, I just find them to be a boring species. They don't intrest me in stories, in lore and I absolutely hate their aethstetic.
I can enjoy the skull-covered gothic of the Imperium, the sleek, almost natural beauty of (most) eldar creations, love the 80's Metal album cover style of Chaos, and even the anime Tau mechy nonsense. Knowing full well that the latter puts me in the minority. I just really don't like the big angry green boys with scrap metal nailed together.
I see words like "hate" and "despise" being thrown around a lot... is it really that big of an issue? At the end of the day we're talking about toy soldiers used in a board game. Like, really? Hating/despising is a little bit over-dramatic, no?
With that said, I must be in the minority that likes most of the 40K factions in some manner or other. Or at the very least I can appreciate that, while they might not be my particular cup of tea, they have their place in the setting, and I'm not one to simply "hate" on them or those that like them, wishing they didn't exists in the hobby just because I'm not that interested in them.
However, with that said, there are still those that I find too silly, too over-the-top or too dumb that I wouldn't mourn their loss or alteration. Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Newcrons... these have bad fluff and/or bad models/art direction. Dark Angels do rub me slightly the wrong way, too. Like they have to be slightly better than everyone else in every area. Black Templar medieval knight theme? Ours is better. Our chaplains are better than normal ones, +1. We have more/better plasma weapons than you, +1. We have more/better Terminator armour/1st company than you, +1. What's that Raven Guard and/or White Scars? Oh no, sorry, we have the best fast-attack company with +1 speeders and bikes. You know what I mean? It's just like; "oh you have [insert specialisation or trait here]? Well we have that too, but better." I don't hate them or anything, just find that aspect about them slightly annoying, I guess.
The only other nit-pick I have about latest trends is trying to inflate/bloat smaller units/ideas into their own standalone factions. AdMech should remain the armourers, mechanics, technicians and engineers that manufacture and arm the IoM, not be an armed forces branch in and of themselves. Imperial Knights... they can go. Scions? Nah, bring back the Storm Trooper regiment and make them part of the Guard faction again. Agents of the Imperium? Where are Artbites? Those could make for some cool models. Inquisitors, assassins, etc... just make them special units/detachment allies for IoM armies, not a faction in and of themselves.
So yeah, these are some things that slightly irritate or annoy me. Do I hate them? Good God, no. Not even close.
Homebrew Imperial Guard: 1222nd Etrurian Lancers (Winged); Special Air-Assault Brigade (SAAB)
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek)
I like space wolves of old, the new seems to have lost their way as others have said.
But if I have to point and say "I hate this" it's got to be Grey knights, followed by the separation of deamon from chaos Marines. Old 40k fluff had chaos Marines and deamons side by side, with the deamons being a unique aspect to it. Now though (and for a while it seems) deamons have been all but pulled from chaos, with us only getting the most basic deamon options. My chaos army is lead by a lord but I have a greater deamon there as well, but I have to have 2 books and basically take 2 armies to run them? Bah.
Anfauglir wrote: I see words like "hate" and "despise" being thrown around a lot... is it really that big of an issue? At the end of the day we're talking about toy soldiers used in a board game. Like, really? Hating/despising is a little bit over-dramatic, no?
'hate' will become a buzzword like 'literally' became. People will need to create another word to represent a stronger feeling, as hate will be pretty much common by then
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/24 17:36:07
What specifically is it about "current" SW that tick people off? To me they've always been pretty much the same (since 2nd edition). Wulfen I don't especially like and yeah Murderfang is a bit too much for me, but outside of them what "new" have they really received recently anyway? The fluff is pretty much what it has always been, they drink mead and beat the crap out of eachother for sport, what the heck is there not to love? They've been the same since the beginning when 40k was actually very much a game based on humor so why are they suddenly viewed in such a "serious" light?
Now I'm not trying to make people love them, I just want to understand why they rank so highly on people's hate lists...
But I think it's great that there are many different factions that are able to incite various emotions in people.
I like all the factions. Sure they have their good points and bad points. But I like painting and playing the game, even against armies that kill off my armies with a tailored list. I might get a little frustrated at the time, but playing is more fun and you cannot win all the time, otherwise you will have trouble finding opponents.
.
Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
DKoK Blog:
Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey
Homebrew Chaos: The Black Suns; A Medrengard Militia (think Iron Warriors-centric Blood Pact/Sons of Sek) 
/ BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
7000+
3500
2000 
Finished Forge World Elysian Army 
Alaitoc Eldar Warhost 
Finished Order of Our Martyred Lady - Sisters of Battle 
