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@odinsgrandson I don't think you quite get what I mean by upgrade cards. If it works like Armada, X-Wing, and I believe Imperial assault, you need multiple cards PER UNIT. I've seen ships in X-Wing with 10 upgrade cards alone, that's a big deal for a skirmish game if it goes above a few models/units per side. This is not a card for just a unit, I'm talking a card for the unit, potentially a card for the squad leader, a card for the special weapon guy, a card showing they have grenades.

This is not at all like Flames of War or other games have, where it's a comprehensive card for the unit and all options. Nor is it like the tactical objective cards 40k has, or the strategy cards DZC has. I really like all of those systems. And FFG's system still works ok for games like X-Wing, at least at a 100pts. The problem creeps in as the games get larger. Epic for example can be a pain unless you both have an agreement to mostly use generics, and you'll still probably need to proxy basic upgrades like R2 astromechs because they only come with a single expansion and aren't even necessarily packaged with ships they logically should be.

This is a star wars game. At some point people will want to reenact the battle of hoth, the ending scene of Rogue One, the assault on Endor, and they'll want big armies per side. FFG's card system they like to use, which shows no signs of changing with this game, will be clunky and undoubtedly annoying to deal with, especially proprietary dice.


Of course it also has a nice "feature" of making it where you cant technically use star wars models you acquired elsewhere if you want to play tournaments as you will need the specific cards. And non FFG star wars minis roughly in this scale do exist. It basically keeps me from using my massive pile of stormtroopers I got from the last star wars minis game.

"But MrMoustaffa if they let you use any old mini they would never make money." Funny, I didn't realize FFG was GW now. Historicals literally deal with this exact same issue and yet Bolt Action and FoW are both doing fine. It is not a legitimate excuse to shove proprietary stuff into their games just to force people from using models they already own. I guarantee you that is the whole reason these models are 33mm scale. To keep people from wanting to use the pile of stormtroopers they already own from Imperial Assault or even the old collectible minis game from the early 2000's. This is the kind of thing GW would get torn a new orifice over, I don't see why FFG gets a free pass here.

Which is a shame, because I want this game to do well and I want to like it. Its just past experiences have taught me that FFG has already screwed it up.

Ok, I can see how those cards can get out of control. Hopefully, they realize how cumbersome that could be and use a more streamlined card design.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
With WW2 though, it's that drive for absolute historical accuracy that's the appeal. Be it specific medal colours on your Brigadier General, or replicating that sky camouflage used in Africa, that's a challenge in and of itself.

Star Wars, for all the things I love about it, has never really had depth in that particular area. Closest as the code cylinders and that on Imperial Officers, and knowing the Squad Leader's pauldron is orange.

Yeah, there's a separation between Historical and Fantasy/Science fiction gamers. Historicals are all about researched accuracy- a lot of 'getting it right." Fantasy and science fiction gamers are all about 'rule of cool."


I can see some appeal in getting Star Wars stuff right, although there's definitely less room to play around. And there's some room for fluffy conversions as well (I suspect there will be some fans of the old Extended Universe stuff that get some cool treatment).

"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally..."

The fearful... those that have all of a sudden gone very defensive of GW. Those that are telling us that this new SW game will need us to buy cards from all sets to be competitive - without any sound knowledge if this is true.

I play X-wing and Walking Dead (amongst many others) and don't think I could stomach another game with a CCG worth of cards.

If I went back in time and found this game before Warhammer got me into wargaming, this could have been the game for me.

SW Legion will live or die by how and where it's marketed.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
"Fear. Fear attracts the fearful, the strong, the weak, the innocent, the corrupt. Fear. Fear is my ally..."

The fearful... those that have all of a sudden gone very defensive of GW. Those that are telling us that this new SW game will need us to buy cards from all sets to be competitive - without any sound knowledge if this is true.

I play X-wing and Walking Dead (amongst many others) and don't think I could stomach another game with a CCG worth of cards.

If I went back in time and found this game before Warhammer got me into wargaming, this could have been the game for me.

SW Legion will live or die by how and where it's marketed.

So wait.

You play X-Wing, a Fantasy Flight Game, and think this is just GW apologists bringing something out of thin air?

Let's be honest here, the "card game" issue only exists in sanctioned tournaments. In terms of game rules the cards have zero effect, they're nothing more than rules reminders and functionally identical to printing the rules in a book or using an online squad builder or whatever. There's no need to own any of the cards, or even take them out of the box. The only time you'll have to use the cards is if you play in a sanctioned tournament, and have to prove to FFG that you bought everything.

I think it would be a serious threat if they were pre-painted minis. I cannot count how many people I have known to be put off by painting models. Its a huge leap that many just are not willing to make and I can understand why.

If the minis were pre-painted to even a decent standard that would open the door for a lot of people.

If Legion expands into other "factions" in the SW universe this will definitely give 40k a run for its money. Droid armies, Clone armies, Ewoks, Wookies, Gungans, Genosians. Even small elite type armies like 4-5 Jedi/Sith. If they decide to try to include all these possibilities. I can see a lot of people going all in on this. I know personally for me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, I was a SW fan first and then discovered 40k later. I grew up with it and it was my first love.

I hope some of the EU vehicles are well-designed enough. A good sci-fi tank could make me drop 40k altogether.

The Baneblade is awful. The AT-AT is worse.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You play X-Wing, a Fantasy Flight Game, and think this is just GW apologists bringing something out of thin air?

No. I think "GW apologists" (as you call them) only tend to take the time to defend their game, and denounce others, when they feel they have something to fear.

Their defense against SW Legion makes it feel like a bigger threat than it will be.

Considering that they make up new Star Wars stuff in media all the time, and half the things people love about the "setting" is all made up in the first place, SWL has plenty ways to go.

Heck, all those GW toys that supposedly gave it longetivity, also made up late in the game's life. Tau? Added late. A bunch of common SM toys now are all recent additions.

FFG made its own ship, which is now canon.

 Vertrucio wrote:
FFG made its own ship, which is now canon.

But only with permission and cooperation from the IP owner, they couldn't just throw something together to fill a game need and do whatever it takes. Having to deal with the IP owner is a definite constraint on a licensed game. It's just that arguably the benefits of the Star Wars brand outweigh those constraints.

 Easy E wrote:
They really should have gone the pre-painted route with these, and then it would be a potential 40K killer.

I agree. The key to beating 40k isn't to target 40k's existing players, as FFG showed with X-Wing. Its to create a game that targets everyone, with a broader appeal.

40k as a game is niche. it will always be niche. Its a hobby that requires you to spend exhorbitant amounts of money on plastic miniatures, spend hours assembling them, more hours painting them, lots more money on a table and terrain, then more horus assemblying and painting that terrain. And then you finally have a semi-finished product to play with.

Compare this to X-Wing. $30 dollars. Open box. Play. Yeah, FFG's over-reliance on cards, special dice, special tools is annoying. But that doesn't impact their target demographic in a negative way, and its probably a positive because its kind of "cool" to have a special thing that's all X-Wing's own. And the other half is they go all the way with their system. When you buy an x-wing, you have everything in the box you need to play it.

GW is trying to move this way with their war scrolls, but they refuse to go all the way because they love their codexes. I just got a new start collecting box for scions, and it had the war scroll for just the scions. Not the commissar, not the taurox, not the taurox prime, not a scion command squad, not the tempestor prime. Can I play with just what came in the box if I take it to the shop? Hell no.

If FFG wants to beat 40k, they need to have ready to play miniatures with a straight forward game that is fun to play. If they do that, they could knock 40k out not by stealing its players, but by bringing in so many new players that 40k looks small by comparison and just fades away.

Will it last forever? Probably not, but then what does?

If Legion Had been released First, I would say it would go after 40k, but Legion wasn't released first, X-Wing was.

Every new Star Wars miniatures game that gets released is in direct competition with X-Wing and every other Star Wars game FFG has put out since.

X-Wing has the advantage because it was first and everybody is already invested.

 Digclaw wrote:
If Legion Had been released First, I would say it would go after 40k, but Legion wasn't released first, X-Wing was.

Every new Star Wars miniatures game that gets released is in direct competition with X-Wing and every other Star Wars game FFG has put out since.

X-Wing has the advantage because it was first and everybody is already invested.

Well, all the X-Wing players I've met seem to love buying new toys. The price point for each kit is usually small enough that people will impulse buy it. This is counter to 40k, where a lot of us subconsciously compare current prices to when we started 40k. . . which makes us all complain about buying stuff.

Hey- if the new toy is cool enough, we don't complain. I mean, did you see the new Lord of Change?





Anyway, I think there's a common problem with miniatures games based on outside IP. They never seem to have enough fleshed out factions.

We're dealing with a two faction setting (Rebels vs. Empire, or Federation vs. Republic or Resistance vs. First Order).

Star Wars is really a setting of Good Guys vs. Bad Guys (unlike 40k which is always Bad guys vs. Bad But in Different Ways Guys).

There's room in the fluff for various planetary forces (Mandalorians, Ewoks, Wookies, Gunguns, Ilithids, etc). But they're probably going to all sit under umbrella factions of Light and Dark.

In X-Wing they have a third faction for Bad Guys Who Aren't Allied to the Empire, right? For scoundrels, scum and villainy?

 odinsgrandson wrote:
So, the question- is it possible that 40k might be unseated from its top spot by SWL?

I think there are too many variable to know:

* Hasbro has the SW boardgame license, so we don't know exactly how FFG is publishing SW IA. Maybe FFG is trying to sell the boardgame as a miniatures game, maybe not. I expect that they have some agreement with Hasbro to sell the FFG boardgames. When directly asked this question, FFG said "it's complicated". It's entirely possible that SWL was developed in case FFG didn't have a SW game they could sell. Note that IA has had four big box expansions and numerous small ones. This many expansions is typically the limit for a boadgame, so, while FFG has said they're working on an IA app (over a year now), sales haven't shown many of their boardgames going beyond five big box expansions.

* FFG has dropped support of game lines (eg. BattleLore 2nd edition) in the past, and I doubt GW will drop 40K (although I would have doubted they'd drop Warhammer Fantasy

* SWL might just be a gateway game new miniatures gamers have to other miniature games. We don't know yet how much sheer content FFG will release for SWL. As others have said, it would be difficult to have more than three factions for SWL, although some BGG'ers evidently *really* like ewoks. I haven't heard if SWL will have the level of customizability of miniatures GW has (ie. bits), but doubt I'll see any rebels with chainsaws grafted onto their arms.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
In X-Wing they have a third faction for Bad Guys Who Aren't Allied to the Empire, right? For scoundrels, scum and villainy?

X-Wing has Rebels, Imperials, and Scum, or "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly." Many players however fall into the 4th faction: The Salty.

++++++++++

On Topic: As an avid X-Wing player, who switched from 40k and will probably never go back (except for Battlefleet Gothic), I'm still not super interested in SWL. It seems like it might be okay, but the way FFG games work these days, it's hard for me to justify buying into a whole new game system where I'll have to buy new templates, dice, cards, etc. all over again. I think some other people mentioned this too, but it bears repeating. The initial cost of getting into FFG's X-Wing or RPGs is really a draw, but it means I'm not motivated to shell out again for a new system - in other words, I don't want to go back to how things were financially trying to support a 40k army.

 Easy E wrote:
They really should have gone the pre-painted route with these, and then it would be a potential 40K killer.

I'm sceptical that the production technology has come so far that prepaintd miniatures can deliver both in looks and in price in a wargaming scale. I used to buy prepainted d&d miniatures a few years back and even though they had their charm, it's not something I would use in a wargame.

Now from what I understand the X-wing stuff is pretty good, but I'm not convinced they could do 28mm infantry in a satisfying manner.

 ulgurstasta wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
They really should have gone the pre-painted route with these, and then it would be a potential 40K killer.

I'm sceptical that the production technology has come so far that prepaintd miniatures can deliver both in looks and in price in a wargaming scale. I used to buy prepainted d&d miniatures a few years back and even though they had their charm, it's not something I would use in a wargame.

Now from what I understand the X-wing stuff is pretty good, but I'm not convinced they could do 28mm infantry in a satisfying manner.

Concerning the pre-painted minis: (Because Uncle Atom is great)

This is like when a newspaper headline asks a question. The answer is usually no,

Can Star Wars Legion take 40k's spot? Sure. In an infinite universe, all things are possible. Is it likely to happen anytime in the near future? Almost certainly not.

Now, let's ask another question. Can Star Wars Legion hurt 40k? I think the answer to this one is probably a yes. I'm going to use an anecdote, which I realize doesn't prove anything, but does serve as an example of how things can go on the small scale. At my local store, 8th Edition released and about a dozen people became excited and brought out armies they hadn't played for the better part of year. We all thought that 7th, towards the end, was hot, unplayable garbage. Some of us bought new things, but most didn't other than an Index. Another six or so people showed interest in getting into the game. One person bought a Dark Imperium box and then fleshed out the Chaos half. The other five saw the Star Wars Legion news and immediately decided that if they were going to start a new game that it was going to be the one with the more familiar IP, a likely tighter rule set and a well supported organized play scene.

Now, that's just an anecdote, but I think it makes my point. Existing 40k players are going to keep up with 40k come hell or high water. Some new players, who might have bought 40k before the Legion announcement, will now wait for Legion. Anyone who plays Runewars, X-Wing or Armada (a lot of people) and was considering getting into table top war gaming will probably give Legion a shot over 40k. Legion is cheaper, better supported and has a familiar rule set for many people.

TL: DR; 40k isn't going anywhere in the near future, but will probably lose potential new players (or players coming back to the hobby) to Legion.

All FFG needs now is a mass battle Star Wars game. I don't know, Star Wars: Battlefield .... or something?

I would love to play an epic/planetfall scale Star Wars game. Then, I would match it up with Armada, X-wing, Imperial Assault, and Legion for some epic-cool campaign weekends! Well, at least in theory I could.

 Kriswall wrote:

TL: DR; 40k isn't going anywhere in the near future, but will probably lose potential new players (or players coming back to the hobby) to Legion.

Not initially. FFG still can't compare to GW when it comes to the breadth and variety of releases. It'll take the better part of a year (or longer) for there to be even enough variety in Legion releases for players to have army customization. Legion's early releases will be primarily based on what's in the core box. Meanwhile, 40k will have had a dozen major releases - new mini-factions, chapter approved, Necromunda gangs, new codices, Christmas bundles, new campaign books and models. While players are waiting on Legion to go anywhere, GW will have multiple chances to draw attention away from it - and honestly, they'll probably be pretty successful at it.

After a while, though, Legion will be past the "fleshing out the core" phase and they'll have their own new models and releases, not to mention a vaguely mature community with websites, wikis, and forums. At this point, non-early adopters will jump in and, should the game be any good, it will start achieving critical mass. By then, GW will have had a huge head start on, at the very least, keeping GW players as well as gaining new fans through Necromunda and Shadespire. I don't think GW has to worry much - though some real competition to keep prices down wouldn't suck.

The one that has the most to lose from Legion is Runewars. Runewars is still in the early adopter phase though and doesn't even have a complete faction yet, much less the promised four of them. It's in a precarious state where the early adopters could easily go be early adopters of Legion, and it miss the chance to achieve that critical mass.

 Sqorgar wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

TL: DR; 40k isn't going anywhere in the near future, but will probably lose potential new players (or players coming back to the hobby) to Legion.

Not initially. FFG still can't compare to GW when it comes to the breadth and variety of releases. It'll take the better part of a year (or longer) for there to be even enough variety in Legion releases for players to have army customization. Legion's early releases will be primarily based on what's in the core box. Meanwhile, 40k will have had a dozen major releases - new mini-factions, chapter approved, Necromunda gangs, new codices, Christmas bundles, new campaign books and models. While players are waiting on Legion to go anywhere, GW will have multiple chances to draw attention away from it - and honestly, they'll probably be pretty successful at it.

After a while, though, Legion will be past the "fleshing out the core" phase and they'll have their own new models and releases, not to mention a vaguely mature community with websites, wikis, and forums. At this point, non-early adopters will jump in and, should the game be any good, it will start achieving critical mass. By then, GW will have had a huge head start on, at the very least, keeping GW players as well as gaining new fans through Necromunda and Shadespire. I don't think GW has to worry much - though some real competition to keep prices down wouldn't suck.

The one that has the most to lose from Legion is Runewars. Runewars is still in the early adopter phase though and doesn't even have a complete faction yet, much less the promised four of them. It's in a precarious state where the early adopters could easily go be early adopters of Legion, and it miss the chance to achieve that critical mass.

"FFG still can't compare to GW when it comes to the breadth and variety of releases."

I would argue that GW's release schedule for 40k is really, really bad. I play Necrons. Exempting the inevitable 8th Edition Codex, when am I going to see my next release? 2017? 2018? 2019? Later? Sure, my fellow players who play other factions are happy, but I'm not. GW is good at cranking new models out quickly, but they're really, really bad at supporting existing factions with regular releases. Not everyone wants "breadth and variety". I would assume that Necron players want Necron units. Tau players want Tau units. Etc. Etc.

You know what X-Wing players get? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Armada players get? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Runewars players will be getting? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Legion players will be getting? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what AGoT LCG players will be getting? New cards for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Star Wars LCG players will be getting? New cards for their faction, multiple times per year.

FFG may not crank out new factions every month, but they do a pretty solid job at supporting existing products/factions. GW does not. GW has production ADD. Every month it's something shiny and new.

 Kriswall wrote:

"FFG still can't compare to GW when it comes to the breadth and variety of releases."

I would argue that GW's release schedule for 40k is really, really bad. I play Necrons. Exempting the inevitable 8th Edition Codex, when am I going to see my next release? 2017? 2018? 2019? Later? Sure, my fellow players who play other factions are happy, but I'm not. GW is good at cranking new models out quickly, but they're really, really bad at supporting existing factions with regular releases. Not everyone wants "breadth and variety". I would assume that Necron players want Necron units. Tau players want Tau units. Etc. Etc.

That is a fair complaint. I didn't consider it because I don't personally enjoy miniature games that way. I really like how GW does it and I have no problem starting a bunch of small armies rather than dedicating myself to just one (or two) forever... and I'm kind of hoping Legion is similar. That being said, I do get where you are coming from.

You know what X-Wing players get? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Armada players get? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Runewars players will be getting? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Legion players will be getting? New models for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what AGoT LCG players will be getting? New cards for their faction, multiple times per year.
You know what Star Wars LCG players will be getting? New cards for their faction, multiple times per year.

FFG may not crank out new factions every month, but they do a pretty solid job at supporting existing products/factions. GW does not. GW has production ADD. Every month it's something shiny and new.

I agree completely, but I still think FFG's release schedule leaves a lot to be desired. For instance, as an LCG player, I can expect about 16 unique faction cards per cycle - for $90, spread out over 6 months (or more) with a lot more cards for other factions (which is great for dabblers like me, but not so much for single faction players). Runewars is very slow to get started and it will be around a year before the four factions are "feature complete" with just core units. I don't really play X-Wing or Armada, but it looks like X-Wing is a wave of 4 ships every six months(?) and Armada is 2-3 ship waves every six months.

I mean, you're right. FFG only has a few factions per game, so they are ultimately catered to - but FFG has a ton of games that it is spread between, and breaks game releases up into (too) small half year waves. To be fair, Runewars doesn't appear to be following the half year wave schedule and it has just an epic ton of releases for the first year (most are redundant to the core set, but there's still 5-6 boxes for each faction announced) - Legion could go a similar way.

 Hückleberry wrote:
Clone armies,

I'd love to see Clone Commandos mini, personally.

 Sqorgar wrote:
I really like how GW does it and I have no problem starting a bunch of small armies rather than dedicating myself to just one (or two) forever...

Small armies? In a GW game? Spending hundreds of dollars on a 1500+ point army just to have the bare minimum to play the game is hardly "small", and that's what you get in GW games. Unless you have a really unusual group of players who enjoy tiny games and are willing to avoid exploiting the scaling issues that 40k suffers below ~1500 points playing 40k means dedicating yourself to an army or two, at least for years at a time. If you keep swapping armies frequently enough to enjoy all of GW's new releases you're never going to finish a full 40k army.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Hückleberry wrote:
Clone armies,

I'd love to see Clone Commandos mini, personally.

Clone troopers would be enough to get me to immediately blow money on this game.

I don't think it's a useful comparison at all.

From what I can tell it seems like Legion will be similar to X-Wing when it comes to many things, including the battle sizes.

X-Wing is a great game if you want small battles where movement is incredibly important. Dropfleet has much bigger battles, and it's also a great game. I don't see either one being "better" than the other one, and even if Legion does everything right, it's not going to replace 40k as a game. It might very well rake in more money than 40k, but I don't think that's necessarily going to hurt GW.
As someone pointed out: SW has an incredibly large fanbase, and most of it never played any kind of tabletop game. Bringing so many people into the hobby will probably result in some people not liking Legion all that much, but liking tabletops, and those folks will pick up other games, including 40k.

I think that here anyway Legion will destroy 40k. There are a lot of people chomping at the bit to see GW go down and they are already prepared to back Legion 200%. And its not an insubstantial number of people, its half of a city's worth of wargamers or more that refuse to touch GW and want it dead.

I think that the biggest thing is that the models are NOT pre-painted, and I think that will stint what Legion could be. A great majority of xwing players I know do not like painting and love that their ships come prepainted.

Even if the paint job is fugly... they'd be happy that they don't have to paint anything. Having to paint models is a turn off for a great many people and I think for FFG to "sink 40k" they'll need to have prepainted options.