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 NenkotaMoon wrote:
And there is more than 20+ guys, not 3+

The police in Georgia Tech could have asked for similar backup, and due tocomparative policing numbers it is easier to get the support in a US urban region than in the UK. Many Uk police stations are closing down, you wont even get three police without a long wait.

 Orlanth wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
And there is more than 20+ guys, not 3+

The police in Georgia Tech could have asked for similar backup, and due tocomparative policing numbers it is easier to get the support in a US urban region than in the UK. Many Uk police stations are closing down, you wont even get three police without a long wait.

They could have, but that would have wasted time. And hey, maybe they had but things escalated before it arrived.

Either way, crazy got shot. And rightfully so given the situation.

Yeah, I mean saying the cops "could have" yadda yadda... I mean it's possible that they did. Backup could literally be approaching yards away without being in-frame of the camera. Maybe that's what spooked the victim into advancing so abruptly? Who knows.

When i post the video of the machete wielding nutter in the UK who was subdued without loss of life, I was not criticizing the officer in this case. The officer was following their training and tools given. I am demonstrating that there are other ways to deal with desperate individuals that don't involve fulfilling their death wish. There is a systemic problem with the way we deal with mental illness here in North America. (Both Hat and Pants)

I had a whole spiel lined up about how jumping on a guy with a knife from behind is a stupid idea and why you can't do "Disabling" shots (hint: anything enough to stop someone is very likely to be fatal, anything else is pretty much useless) and police protocol (which the officers in this case did follow, almost to a tee).

But honestly I'm kinda disappointed that all the hullabaloo over the police's conduct glossed over Scout's mental illness. I don't wanna put it on a pedestal but mental health issues, when they're not ignored, is often put in a negative light and stigmatizes those who have it, when it's an illiness that have medications and coping methods that can help mitigate or cure it. And in most cases you just need to speak with someone who knows how to help. I don't know if the US is like us, but here in Canada trying to get help for mental health is a joke; I tried to just get a counselor for my depression and I was put on a month-long waiting list (when I was having suicidal thoughts every other day). And that is not when I'm told to conceal it for fear of shame when it turns out that some medication and sharing my experiences is all I needed to get over it.

I don't see "sides" in this incident, I just see three victims; two cops forced to end the life of a promising student and someone who was consumed by their affliction that didn't get the help they could. (The cops are probably going to suffer some kind of stress too, even triggerhappy cops are still human and it's very hard for someone to end the life of another. You never walk out of it unscathed. And that's not to mention the stigma that they're "murderers" that's going to haunt them, as many people on this thread already proved).

 Blackie wrote:


It was not a matter of split second decision, the cop could have shot the student in a leg or use the taser.

Yay another shoot them in the leg internat commando.

1. The leg is a difficult target as it is thin compared to centre chest.

2.. You have to aim down which means it is hard to place your eye behind the sight of the gun when going for a short range legshot.

3. when you take the shot and likely miss you have ricochet, there is another cop behind trying to close the crazy in, its also an urban environment with student dorms people with cameras etc.

4. A legshot from a sidearm will not put someone on the ground unless you fire more than once unless you hit an artery or something.

5. So ironically an effective wound may be a quickly fatal one.

6. Someone with a leg wound might go into a form of shock which dulls senses and what remains of good judgement but leaving the target fully able at least in the short term. This is not deescalation.

7. If you do hit and shatter bone and put the target down, your light warning hit will likely cripple them for life.

Aim centre mass, it can kill but usually wont do so quickly but it will take down and if it doent kill the chances are good with medical attention. A small arm shot will also likely hit and not leave an exit wound.
Better not to shoot if you can avoid it, but there are a number of reasons why if people do shoot they aim centre mass.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
And there is more than 20+ guys, not 3+

The police in Georgia Tech could have asked for similar backup, and due tocomparative policing numbers it is easier to get the support in a US urban region than in the UK. Many Uk police stations are closing down, you wont even get three police without a long wait.

They could have, but that would have wasted time. And hey, maybe they had but things escalated before it arrived.

Either way, crazy got shot. And rightfully so given the situation.

I agree that they might not have had the time. 'Suicide by cop' is not a thing in the UK, as the responding officers don't nominally have guns. So the machete guy could be contained until reinforcements arrived. The police in Georgia Tech didnt have that luxury.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I had a whole spiel lined up about how jumping on a guy with a knife from behind is a stupid idea and why you can't do "Disabling" shots (hint: anything enough to stop someone is very likely to be fatal, anything else is pretty much useless) and police protocol (which the officers in this case did follow, almost to a tee).

But honestly I'm kinda disappointed that all the hullabaloo over the police's conduct glossed over Scout's mental illness. I don't wanna put it on a pedestal but mental health issues, when they're not ignored, is often put in a negative light and stigmatizes those who have it, when it's an illiness that have medications and coping methods that can help mitigate or cure it. And in most cases you just need to speak with someone who knows how to help. I don't know if the US is like us, but here in Canada trying to get help for mental health is a joke; I tried to just get a counselor for my depression and I was put on a month-long waiting list (when I was having suicidal thoughts every other day). And that is not when I'm told to conceal it for fear of shame when it turns out that some medication and sharing my experiences is all I needed to get over it.

I don't see "sides" in this incident, I just see three victims; two cops forced to end the life of a promising student and someone who was consumed by their affliction that didn't get the help they could. (The cops are probably going to suffer some kind of stress too, even triggerhappy cops are still human and it's very hard for someone to end the life of another. You never walk out of it unscathed. And that's not to mention the stigma that they're "murderers" that's going to haunt them, as many people on this thread already proved).

This is a good post. Being transgender/nonbinary/<insert sexual identity here> in America is very difficult right now. People in the media are essentially fighting over your soul, over whether or not you're a valid person, over whether or not your junk identifies who you are. It's certainly a struggle.

 feeder wrote:
When i post the video of the machete wielding nutter in the UK who was subdued without loss of life, I was not criticizing the officer in this case. The officer was following their training and tools given. I am demonstrating that there are other ways to deal with desperate individuals that don't involve fulfilling their death wish. There is a systemic problem with the way we deal with mental illness here in North America. (Both Hat and Pants)

Yeah, forgive me if I think using 20 officers to subdue someone is a total waste of resources. It just makes it take even longer to resolve a situation, which means it's more likely for something to go sideways.

As for mental illness, I agree. Though its a tough situation all around, because you want it to be easy to institutionalize someone. Because then you'd really leave it open for abuse.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
This is a good post. Being transgender/nonbinary/<insert sexual identity here> in America is very difficult right now. People in the media are essentially fighting over your soul, over whether or not you're a valid person, over whether or not your junk identifies who you are. It's certainly a struggle.

Indeed. I just had depression from having to live up to the legacy of my dad (who is rather an impressive individual, and kinda insane to think about at times). I can't imagine what it would be like for someone to have to fight over their own identity over societal norms (Really I can't. I'm here trying to simply conform to normal societal norms and there are people fighting for their very identities. If I had to be faced with that I might actually break).

Yeah, why use 20 cops officers to subdue someone without victims when you can put two cops in a car with guns and make then do it Texas Walker style!

I gotta say that this is one case I've seen in a while where I felt like the police didn't fail. I don't like people getting shot by police, but if someone is screaming and coming at you with a knife, ultimately, sometimes you have to use deadly force to stop them. And that's not even considering the possibility of drugs. It's suggested that some can make a person borderline unrestrainable. Hindsight knows for sure, but those officers at the time didn't, and I'll happily agree that police officers need to be prepared to accept that they might lose their lives in duty, but they shouldn't have to accept that they'll need to throw their lives away in duty. That would only create a more dangerous police force than we already have now.

No, here, society failed, because we don't have a better means of identifying and treating mental health issues. To everyone saying "well, if the cops just did X it would be fine", I'd counter with that if we had a better way of screening for mental health issues than what basically amounts to personal responsibility*, the police never would have been in that position to begin with. This person was beyond saving the moment he stepped outside, and it's tragic, I really think so, but the prevention for this should have been years ago, not that night.


* Regardless of your general attitude toward life and what exactly "personal responsibility" is, it's basically impossible to expect someone who's unstable enough to deliberately get themselves killed to act reasonably.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, I think this is regrettable, but I think the cops did fine as individuals.

Like I said earlier, maybe a culture change is needed, or a training change, or a budgeting change, but as it stands, I would hold the individual cops acting in the moment rather blameless.

I should note that I've been careful not to blame the officer in question--just the decisions of whatever entity is above the officers.

I personally believe that firearms are not something that should be standard issue for "campus police"(and I would like to point out, again, that I felt I made a pretty clear distinction between actual police officers who are assigned to work on a college campus and those who are effectively security officers and who have no business being called "police" as it blurs the distinction between law enforcement officials and private security forces) and that there is a real reason why we see individuals like the one in this situation targeting schools or other soft targets like this.

That reason is they know they can have their wish fulfilled when it comes to ending their lives as here in the US, there really is(whether we want to recognize it or not) a tendency for officers to pull the trigger first and ask "why" later. In many instances of "suicide by cop", there were screaming warning signs that the individual is suicidal but won't actively commit suicide and needs some kind of mental health treatment but either cannot afford treatment or will not seek it for whatever reason. The research into the phenomenon of "suicide by cop" is still relatively recent, with it really only being recognized as a thing since the mid/late 1980s.
Where things get even more messy is the weirdness of the person having suicidal tendencies but not actively attempting to commit suicide. Some of the individuals in question have left notes or stated their intentions very publicly. The 2015 incident with Matthew Hoffman is a notable case where he left a message on his cell phone for the officer who would kill him, saying that they "did nothing wrong" and that he was "too much of a coward to do it himself".

I realize this might be kinda ranty/wandering statements but there's a lot of factors at play here when I call something like this a failure in all regards. I don't expect police to go out of their way to try to prevent incidents like this from escalating into full blown body counts or to just stand there while they take a knife to the face, but I am exceedingly tired of the played out response of "they have no duty to protect" that gets parroted by the gun rights advocates.
I'm tired of the played out response of "they have to think of their own safety first" that gets parroted any time we have an incident like this where someone knowingly tries to get the police to end their life here in the US, because they know that they can get their wish fulfilled by officers who joined the police force not out of a desire to protect or to serve but because it's a job with a little bit of power that appeals to individuals who have no business being hired by law enforcement agencies but will get hired anyways because some departments need warm bodies, not warm personalities.


What I expect from police is them to live up to the lipservice that gets paid both by departments and certain political parties. I get that it's a hard job and that their safety isn't guaranteed and that more and more they are being forced into a role that they are not really prepared or trained for(rightly or wrongly) when it comes to dealing with mental health issues, but that's a reason for officers to start insisting that they be given the preparation and training for these situations. Not to just blindly follow procedure.

For a little bit more background:
I'm someone who actively went to try to get into law enforcement out of a desire to make a difference in my community and ended up getting disqualified thanks to a medical condition that would make me a liability and disqualified me from being hireable.

I think that's enough preachiness from me for the day.

 Kanluwen wrote:

I personally believe that firearms are not something that should be standard issue for "campus police"(and I would like to point out, again, that I felt I made a pretty clear distinction between actual police officers who are assigned to work on a college campus and those who are effectively security officers and who have no business being called "police" as it blurs the distinction between law enforcement officials and private security forces) and that there is a real reason why we see individuals like the one in this situation targeting schools or other soft targets like this.

Again. Campus Police often ARE actual Police.

Many universities and schools have actual police forces. There is no difference between them an your run of the mill city police force. There is no distinction. These guys were actual Police. Not Rent-a-cops with guns.

 Galas wrote:
Yeah, why use 20 cops officers to subdue someone without victims when you can put two cops in a car with guns and make then do it Texas Walker style!

That is amazingly incorrect Spaniard. Walker was a Ranger. One riot, one Ranger. Thats the rule.

 Freddy Kruger wrote:
I like how some people in this thread are 'armchair tactician' types, or simply dismiss the police as nothing more than murderers. Disgraceful. If YOU think you could do better, be my guest and sign up to the police academy. .

As a casual aside, this is a bad fallacy and you should feel bad for using it:

If you see a stockist at the supermarket throwing eggs onto a shelf, you don't need to be a stockist to know it's poor technique, if you see your internet is out and the tech advises you to pack the modem full of butter, you don't need to be a tech to know this isn't a good idea, and so on and so forth. Some things are self-evident to a layman and do not require specialized knowledge to determine. I've never been a police officer, but I feel wholly and comfortably secure in saying that the police should properly secure people in the back of transport vans when in custody, for example.

Just to reiterate, I don't think the police used excessive force or were wrong in shooting in this instance; they did the best they could with the tools at hand as it's been currently reported. My concern is that I wish they had better tools at hand going forward.

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I personally believe that firearms are not something that should be standard issue for "campus police"(and I would like to point out, again, that I felt I made a pretty clear distinction between actual police officers who are assigned to work on a college campus and those who are effectively security officers and who have no business being called "police" as it blurs the distinction between law enforcement officials and private security forces) and that there is a real reason why we see individuals like the one in this situation targeting schools or other soft targets like this.

Again. Campus Police often ARE actual Police.

Many universities and schools have actual police forces. There is no difference between them an your run of the mill city police force. There is no distinction. These guys were actual Police. Not Rent-a-cops with guns.

Once again, you're choosing to ignore the point I've made a pretty clear point of distinction about.

"Many universities and schools" does not equal "all universities and schools", and there actually is a difference as many of them are considered to be beholden to the school before anything else. It's why we keep having issues when it comes to sexual assaults and things of that nature on college campuses as while the officers might be certified to work as a sworn peace officer, their job is dependent upon the school and it creates a conflict of interest.

But keep trying to find a way of picking and choosing the argument.

 Frazzled wrote:
Spethulu how many instances do you know of where your police tried a leg shot and were successful? Is your average officer armed? This is a question not a criticism.

Finding that info from some database would be a chore, but it really is the most usual police shooting to make the news. The 2003-2013 stats have them shooting 22 people in total, out of which two died. There's been shotings since and a few more deaths, but the deadly ones are usually when the suspect has a gun. Our police receive three years of training before they're let out on their own though, and one year of that is as a "younger constable" serving alongside a regular officer. Yes, police officers are armed with 9mm Glocks, pepper spray and usually a taser. They also have an MP5 SMG in the car and would ofc prefer to use that for a longer-range shot.

They used a leg shot on the knife guy in Turku too, then subdued him. And that was a man who actually killed people.

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/ap-several-wounded-in-finland-stabbing-suspect-shot-in-the-leg-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

"Police shot the suspect in a leg and detained him Friday"

edit: I still think the officers in the OP did exactly as much as they could do with the resources and training they had. They tried words first and backed away, and had only guns.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Spethulu how many instances do you know of where your police tried a leg shot and were successful? Is your average officer armed? This is a question not a criticism.

Finding that info from some database would be a chore, but it really is the most usual police shooting to make the news. The 2003-2013 stats have them shooting 22 people in total, out of which two died. There's been shotings since and a few more deaths, but the deadly ones are usually when the suspect has a gun. Our police receive three years of training before they're let out on their own though, and one year of that is as a "younger constable" serving alongside a regular officer. Yes, police officers are armed with 9mm Glocks, pepper spray and usually a taser. They also have an MP5 SMG in the car and would ofc prefer to use that for a longer-range shot.

They used a leg shot on the knife guy in Turku too, then subdued him. And that was a man who actually killed people.

http://nordic.businessinsider.com/ap-several-wounded-in-finland-stabbing-suspect-shot-in-the-leg-2017-8?r=US&IR=T

"Police shot the suspect in a leg and detained him Friday"

So 22 shot, out of how many instances? Shooting but not killing doesn't mean they attempted to wound.
Further it not uncommon for us in the states to see one or more articles weekly now about knife or other attacks in Europe by terrorists, usually followed with "killed by police/soldiers."

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

I personally believe that firearms are not something that should be standard issue for "campus police"(and I would like to point out, again, that I felt I made a pretty clear distinction between actual police officers who are assigned to work on a college campus and those who are effectively security officers and who have no business being called "police" as it blurs the distinction between law enforcement officials and private security forces) and that there is a real reason why we see individuals like the one in this situation targeting schools or other soft targets like this.

Again. Campus Police often ARE actual Police.

Many universities and schools have actual police forces. There is no difference between them an your run of the mill city police force. There is no distinction. These guys were actual Police. Not Rent-a-cops with guns.

Once again, you're choosing to ignore the point I've made a pretty clear point of distinction about.

"Many universities and schools" does not equal "all universities and schools", and there actually is a difference as many of them are considered to be beholden to the school before anything else. It's why we keep having issues when it comes to sexual assaults and things of that nature on college campuses as while the officers might be certified to work as a sworn peace officer, their job is dependent upon the school and it creates a conflict of interest.

But keep trying to find a way of picking and choosing the argument.

Except none of that is relevant to this situation. Far as I can determine, these were actual police. So nothing you keep harping about is relevant here.

 Frazzled wrote:
So 22 shot, out of how many instances? Shooting but not killing doesn't mean they attempted to wound.

Well, police here generally don't even pull a gun unless someone is armed and making threats. Here's those 2003-2013 stats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

Even when pulled they don't usually shoot, only threaten to reinforce the command to surrender. You have years like 2013 where a gun was "used" 27 times and "threatened" 19 times, but only 6 shots were fired. 2 warning shots and 4 wounded people.

I remember an incident in my own home town where a mental patient with a shotgun took hostages at a gas station (he wanted to get put in closed care instead of trying to cope alone with only pills). The police took him out with a dog instead of a sniper.

 jhe90 wrote:
yeah, much as police have a vest and training,

a blade can still gi over and into the neck, leathal, or into leg, which can do alot of damage....

the vest only protects the chest area and no the neck or head area,

Police sadly did what they had to. they did not know mental state and could not let a person who a potential danger to others roam campus with a knife.

I'd also like to point our that the most common vest worn by police is level 2-A. That is NOT knife resistant. You can punch right through them. May as well be wearing a couple layers of corrugated cardboard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
I've seen the video, this is another senseless murder committed by american cops.

It was not a matter of split second decision, the cop could have shot the student in a leg .

Quick note here..... Shooting someone with only the intent to wound is actually MUCH more illegal than shooting to kill someone. Any use of a firearm in the US is considered use of deadly force, regardless of your intent. If you shoot someone you are trying to kill them, at least as the law sees it. So, if you shoot someone because you feel killing is necessary, it's considered self defense. If you shoot someone to wound them, you are admitting that lethal force was not necessary, but you used it anyway. That's attempted murder.


It's strange, but that's how it's worded.

What I learned from this thread: It is too dangerous for police in the US to tackle a man with a knife.

In other countries, they employ this tactic as well as other non lethal means in order to subdue people. Very successfully.

I wonder what is wrong over here.

Hint: Its the police

America's pride was gravely wounded by the "that's not a knife... this is a knife" scene in Crocodile Dundee. Since then Top Men (tm) have been working around the clock to ensure American Knives are the deadliest in the world, making it literally impossible for American police to subdue distraught persons without applying deadly force.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
So 22 shot, out of how many instances? Shooting but not killing doesn't mean they attempted to wound.

Well, police here generally don't even pull a gun unless someone is armed and making threats. Here's those 2003-2013 stats:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

Even when pulled they don't usually shoot, only threaten to reinforce the command to surrender. You have years like 2013 where a gun was "used" 27 times and "threatened" 19 times, but only 6 shots were fired. 2 warning shots and 4 wounded people.

I remember an incident in my own home town where a mental patient with a shotgun took hostages at a gas station (he wanted to get put in closed care instead of trying to cope alone with only pills). The police took him out with a dog instead of a sniper.

46 times? That's it? How many people live in your country?

Its not fair to compare USA with a single European country. Use is much bigger than all of Europe. Probably to compare data, we should compare something like USA vs Germany+France+UK+Spain. To reach similar population.

Or just compare per capita.

USA is like 350 million and Finland 5?
So just adjust the figures accordingly to get a comparative number.

Oddly enough all of Europe is more populated than the US. Europe is nearly 450 million and, the US is nearly 340 million (IIRC). This while the US is twice the land area of all of Europe.

Again this person was known to suffer from mental illness (at least depression) and was on some kind of prescribed medication. There have been numerous cases of medications increasing suicidal idealization. I've even experienced on a couple different drugs. I think medications are over prescribed and therapy (again, in my experience) is often poor.

There is also the issue of people refusing to get better. I met a girl (attractive, BA in Psychology) that argued up and down that cutting was a perfectly acceptable form of behavior. Two years later she is still depressed, lives at home, and is unemployed. Despite still doing therapy and taking medications. That's just one example. I know entirely too many people who have spent years in therapy and made no progress.

Something is clearly wrong here. Someone is failing. I believe American society is so afraid of 'blaming the victim' that we have reached the point where personal responsibilities are neglected and unless you actually abuse someone manipulative behavior is tolerated.

Why are so few of us left active, healthy, and without personality disorders?

 trexmeyer wrote:


Something is clearly wrong here. Someone is failing. I believe American society is so afraid of 'blaming the victim' that we have reached the point where personal responsibilities are neglected and unless you actually abuse someone manipulative behavior is tolerated.

LOL, what?

it's American society's go to strategy, they always blame the victim.

If you get shot by a cop, it's your fault, even if you were fully complying with the cops instructions, you probably stole a candy bar as a kid, and thus deserved it.

If you get raped, clearly your fault, you were probably wearing something revealing.

A Nazi runs you over, well you shouldn't have been protesting Nazis.

the one thing American society is really afraid of, is assigning blame where it is due. They'll even defend Nazi's just so they can blame the victim.

What the police need is training, from professionsals to teach them how to deescalate problems like these. The only thing the cop knew to do was step back, and that's their idea of deescalating, but in the end, it's always go for the gun and shoot to kill. it's all they're trained to do.