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2019/07/12 23:14:14
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Also really interested in this game, but I've been burned so many times it feels like, on games that don't pick up traction. Neither of the first two factions speak to me yet, so I might wait to see if the Nords do it later in the year. Hopefully we'll be able to see more pictures of models by then.
2019/07/13 02:45:42
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
It’s an obscene amount of plastic in the starter, and having played the game twice and as a longtime fan of Warhammer Fantasy this game is better in every way gameplay wise.
Pick up the starter. It’s a good deal even if you don’t play the game, but I assure you the game is fantastic and you won’t regret it!
One of them filthy casuals...
2019/07/13 03:51:47
Subject: Re:Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Saw the boxes at miniature Market today, very nice.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
2019/07/14 06:25:22
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Also, anyone know if the human side of the starter has the ‘command’ parts included?
Banner and such?
Played 5 demo games with people today. Everyone bought or split a starter after. The game is amazing and a wonderful deal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mephguour wrote: Very curious to hear what people think about their unboxing and first games. Have been following for a few weeks and am very intrigued but still unsure if it will get momentum in my area.
One of my local stores has already sold 18 copies. The rules are fantastic and the minis are excellent. Someone has to lead in an area most people are sheep.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/14 06:31:14
2019/07/14 07:16:17
Subject: Re:Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
...I got rid of a few pricey items so I could justify picking up a starter. It is an honest to goodness deal at the price they're offering it.
More than likely it'll get here when I'm out of town. Once I'm home I guess I'll try getting some demo stuff ready.
While the starter stuff is nice, I'm going to really be keeping my eyes peeled for the Dweghom and character models.
Going to be interesting to see what the characters are priced at, in addition to if they continue releasing them in plastic or if they switch materials.
Maelstrom's Edge started with everything in plastic (the bulk of it still is) but a lot of the specialty character type models all ended up switching to resin.
Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!
Mine is scheduled for delivery on Friday! Looking forward to this, if anyone has any questions about contents I'd be happy to answer once I get a chance to open it up.
I hope some people get interested in it in the Seattle area (or north) so I can play a game or two
agnosto wrote: To the closet, batman and don't forget the feather duster!
2019/07/17 18:51:40
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Finally got around to getting a few demo games in, and I have to say, I'm really loving it.
Old players of WHFB will enjoy seeing a lot of the similarities, and I'm impressed with how fleshed out the lore is so far.
The models look admittedly worse when unpainted, but I got to demo last night with some "basic" painted models, and they look FANTASTIC in rank and file.
It seems like the sculpts are just getting better as well, doing some research on the upcoming nord and dweghom releases, you can tell that their sculpters have changed or are getting better.
Definitely highly recommend at least trying this game! I have a pretty good confidence level in it after playing.
2019/07/20 00:45:09
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Okay, I haven't really been paying close attention to this, but I pre-ordered the starter and received it on Friday. Rules seem good, models are nice enough to make me look up additional stuff. 12 models cost 36€. What? That's GW pricing and to be fair, the models are nowhere nearly as good as GW plastic. Kinda bummed about this, because it probably means I wont expand on this beyond the starter.
Edit: okay, I just discovered that they are doing 1:1 for USD to Euro. That's pretty gakky.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/21 10:20:09
They are considerably larger than GW minis and you suggest GW has a pricing structure. They have sets on 5 models at £35+ which you need multiples of to field a usable unit. Yoh have to pay for rulebook and army books which are updated on a regular schedule etc.
You have to factor in that they are giving all their lore, artwork, rules and army builder away for no additional cost and each box comes with movement trays and command cards.
How dare they bundle up a core starter set at a great discount! Haha.
They also dare to bundle up army starters at a slightly lower discount than the 2 player set, which also come with printed rulebook, one character and 3 units.
What they should be doing is making bundles which come to the same cost of buying units separately :/ like GW?
Btw, most traders are able to discount 15-20% I've picked up most units boxes for £25 rather than 30-odd
Davidian wrote: They are considerably larger than GW minis and you suggest GW has a pricing structure. They have sets on 5 models at £35+ which you need multiples of to field a usable unit. Yoh have to pay for rulebook and army books which are updated on a regular schedule etc.
You have to factor in that they are giving all their lore, artwork, rules and army builder away for no additional cost and each box comes with movement trays and command cards.
How dare they bundle up a core starter set at a great discount! Haha.
They also dare to bundle up army starters at a slightly lower discount than the 2 player set, which also come with printed rulebook, one character and 3 units.
What they should be doing is making bundles which come to the same cost of buying units separately :/ like GW?
Btw, most traders are able to discount 15-20% I've picked up most units boxes for £25 rather than 30-odd
Half of your points are pretty... off?
They aren't really larger than current GW models. Sure, if you compare them to 15 year old Empire kits, that might be true, but a Khorne Bloodreaver or Warrior is the same size.
Para Bellum isn't the only company with a free rule set, nor are they the only rule set with artwork and lore?
The movement trays are needed for play and don't work without them, so this isn't a bonus either. And 1 card... come on.
I really don't understand your point here.
I didn't complain about bundle prices, did I? But besides the starter, there isn't a bundle, and as I said, I didn't follow this too closely the last few months, so if heavily discounted army boxes are planned, I didn't catch it because the PB site doesn't show anything in this regard.
Your suggestion that GW isn't doing discounted bundles is also wrong.
Traders also discount other miniature lines with 12-20% on the regular, so Conquest isn't any cheaper here. Again, I don't see your point.
But like it or not, a unit of 12 basic infantry guys for 36 EUR is pretty expensive and it falls exactly in GW's price segement with 10 new-ish basic guys for 30-36 EUR.
Also, the fact remains that they are doing shady 1:1 USD to EUR conversion, which makes RoW customers pay for good US prices.
That's because they manufacture US product in the States. Its not all made in china and shipped. Nothings shady about it. Its local economics that determine this.
Davidian wrote: They are considerably larger than GW minis and you suggest GW has a pricing structure. They have sets on 5 models at £35+ which you need multiples of to field a usable unit. Yoh have to pay for rulebook and army books which are updated on a regular schedule etc.
You have to factor in that they are giving all their lore, artwork, rules and army builder away for no additional cost and each box comes with movement trays and command cards.
How dare they bundle up a core starter set at a great discount! Haha.
They also dare to bundle up army starters at a slightly lower discount than the 2 player set, which also come with printed rulebook, one character and 3 units.
What they should be doing is making bundles which come to the same cost of buying units separately :/ like GW?
Btw, most traders are able to discount 15-20% I've picked up most units boxes for £25 rather than 30-odd
Half of your points are pretty... off?
They aren't really larger than current GW models. Sure, if you compare them to 15 year old Empire kits, that might be true, but a Khorne Bloodreaver or Warrior is the same size.
Para Bellum isn't the only company with a free rule set, nor are they the only rule set with artwork and lore?
The movement trays are needed for play and don't work without them, so this isn't a bonus either. And 1 card... come on.
I really don't understand your point here.
I didn't complain about bundle prices, did I? But besides the starter, there isn't a bundle, and as I said, I didn't follow this too closely the last few months, so if heavily discounted army boxes are planned, I didn't catch it because the PB site doesn't show anything in this regard.
Your suggestion that GW isn't doing discounted bundles is also wrong.
Traders also discount other miniature lines with 12-20% on the regular, so Conquest isn't any cheaper here. Again, I don't see your point.
But like it or not, a unit of 12 basic infantry guys for 36 EUR is pretty expensive and it falls exactly in GW's price segement with 10 new-ish basic guys for 30-36 EUR.
Also, the fact remains that they are doing shady 1:1 USD to EUR conversion, which makes RoW customers pay for good US prices.
I hate to say it, but your pricing is waaaaay off for Conquest vs. GW. Let's examine in detail.
Your point is well made if you're comparing older WHFB model kits to Conquest kits, ignoring that you need fewer kits of Conquest vs. WHFB to make an army for their respective system. For example:
Now, as Davidian stated, you do get the movement trays included with your conquest models, and the rules for using them in-game (it is just the one card, as you said, but it does still apply) whereas the Empire archers just come with their individual bases and you have to purchase the army book to use them in-game. That being said, in this comparison you're correct, the empire archers are cheaper clocking in at 68% of the price of the Mercenary Crossbowmen on a per-unit basis and 82% the cost of the Mercenary Crossbowmen on a per-model basis. It may be more fair to compare the rank-n-file Freeguild Crossbowmen (10 models, $30) to the rank-n-file Mercenary Crossbowmen, but the effect is the same, though less pronounced. The Freeguild Crossbowmen come in at 83% of the cost of their Conquest counterparts on a per-unit basis, but they are 100% the same cost on a per-model basis at $3/ model in both examples. It's also important to remember that the Freeguild Crossbowmen were released more than 10 years ago if memory serves.
-BUT-
You didn't say older WHFB models. You said "10 new-Ish basic guys". But is that true? I've tried to keep my comparisons within the same army role in the various systems, if that makes sense, so as to be as fair as possible in the comparison itself.
Both of those are the 'basic trooper' of their army. They will make up the core bulk of whatever you field. As you can see, the Liberators are 172% of the price of the Men-at-arms despite having two less models in the box. On a per-model basis, the Liberators are 206% of the cost of the Men-at-Arms. That's not even close.
These are both more elite cavalry options for their respective armies/ systems, but the Fulminators clock in at 154% of the price of the Household Knights despite having one less model in the box. This makes the Fulminators a crazy 232% of the cost of the Knights on a per-model basis.
I also wanted to cover multiple bases in this cavalry comparison, so I looked at:
Both of these are the 'bruiser monsters' of their armies, but the Troggoths total 142% of the price of the Brute Drone on a per-unit and per-model basis.
So there you go. Simply put, GW's pricing is leaps and bounds above PB's in everything that has been released in the last four years. We could do an in-depth comparison of prices of WHFB models vs. Conquest models if you'd like, but I would want to look at the cost of the actual army itself vs. individual units to ensure the most fair comparison. It may be worth doing this anyway to compare the models (and thus money) needed to field an army in both WHFB and AoS vs. Conquest, but I feel extremely confident that if you're making an AoS army out of models released after AoS's launch, you're going to be spending much, much more money on GW vs. PB.
Hope this helps!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 14:06:01
One of them filthy casuals...
2019/07/22 14:44:13
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
The movement trays aren't really a good argument, because the Conquest rules are written in a way that you need to use the movement trays for play, while even old WHFB didn't 'need' them. They were nice to have, but not a must have.
The comparisons are a bit off, because Fulminators for example are way bigger than the Knights and cost more points in game (compared to the 2500 default in Conquest and 2000 in AoS). Varanguard are way out of line, even for GW. We could go on and on here about minimal details and the newest waves of GW is more expensive while 2 years ago it in't necessarily, but I kinda have to agree with you, that US prices are 'fair'.
Now let's compare AoS with Conquest using the 1:1 conversion for USD to EUR.
3 Household Knights are 42€ - 6 Skullcrushers which are similiar in size (bit smaller, but beefier) are 78€. They are an older GW kit, true, but the PB sprues from the starter wave aren't on current GW production levels.
Bloodreavers are 20 guys for 46€ - compared to 36€ for 12 Men-at-arms/Crossbowmen.
I don't even want to get to kits older than a few years that still look good like basic daemon infantry (10 for 25€).
Let's switch to Stormcast for AoS.
You mentioned Liberators, which are basic infantry for Stormcast, but compared directly, are bigger than Conquest infantry and also are part of an elite army and are more expensive in game. They are still more expensive by a good amount with 49€ to the 36€ for Conquest infantry - I'll give you that.
A more fitting comparision for the Household Knights would be the Palladors instead of the Fulminators, which are 45€ for 3 (compared to the 42 for Conquest). So pretty much the same level.
A good comparison for the Brutes would be the AoS Kurnoth HUunters - 3 for 46 vs 3 for 42. So again, same level.
To be honest, I'm having a hard time to find basic infantry for AoS that is more expensive than basic infantry in Conquest - basically nearly everything that was created pre-AoS and is still heavily in use in a lot of armies is cheaper than Conquest. If you only look at the new stuff GW put out the last 2-3 years, you may be right that GW is more expensive, but not really by that much - in Euros.
And I don't agree with Davidian here, if PB produces in the US, good for them; but GW produces all 'models' in GB (that is: the troops for the armies - spells and terrain are made in China) and you can't tell me that production in GB is cheaper than US.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/22 14:44:53
Hanskrampf wrote: The movement trays aren't really a good argument, because the Conquest rules are written in a way that you need to use the movement trays for play, while even old WHFB didn't 'need' them. They were nice to have, but not a must have.
The comparisons are a bit off, because Fulminators for example are way bigger than the Knights and cost more points in game (compared to the 2500 default in Conquest and 2000 in AoS). Varanguard are way out of line, even for GW. We could go on and on here about minimal details and the newest waves of GW is more expensive while 2 years ago it in't necessarily, but I kinda have to agree with you, that US prices are 'fair'.
Now let's compare AoS with Conquest using the 1:1 conversion for USD to EUR.
3 Household Knights are 42€ - 6 Skullcrushers which are similiar in size (bit smaller, but beefier) are 78€. They are an older GW kit, true, but the PB sprues from the starter wave aren't on current GW production levels.
Bloodreavers are 20 guys for 46€ - compared to 36€ for 12 Men-at-arms/Crossbowmen.
I don't even want to get to kits older than a few years that still look good like basic daemon infantry (10 for 25€).
Let's switch to Stormcast for AoS.
You mentioned Liberators, which are basic infantry for Stormcast, but compared directly, are bigger than Conquest infantry and also are part of an elite army and are more expensive in game. They are still more expensive by a good amount with 49€ to the 36€ for Conquest infantry - I'll give you that.
A more fitting comparision for the Household Knights would be the Palladors instead of the Fulminators, which are 45€ for 3 (compared to the 42 for Conquest). So pretty much the same level.
A good comparison for the Brutes would be the AoS Kurnoth HUunters - 3 for 46 vs 3 for 42. So again, same level.
To be honest, I'm having a hard time to find basic infantry for AoS that is more expensive than basic infantry in Conquest - basically nearly everything that was created pre-AoS and is still heavily in use in a lot of armies is cheaper than Conquest. If you only look at the new stuff GW put out the last 2-3 years, you may be right that GW is more expensive, but not really by that much - in Euros.
And I don't agree with Davidian here, if PB produces in the US, good for them; but GW produces all 'models' in GB (that is: the troops for the armies - spells and terrain are made in China) and you can't tell me that production in GB is cheaper than US.
We'll agree to ignore the movement trays if you'd like, but while they are technically 'nice to have' for WHFB, no one ever didn't have them. While the rules may not have required them, the game itself certainly did. In my many years of WHFB gaming, I've never seen anyone not use movement trays. Not once.
I would need to see a size comparison between the household Knights and the Fulminators because you keep claiming that the AoS stuff is 'way bigger' while it is still technically 28mm heroic. Conquest is 32mm and a Man-at-Arms (basic human) comes in at just slightly less 'big' than a Primaris Space Marine.
Changing from Fulminators to Palladors isn't a good comparison as Palladors aren't the elite shock-cavalry the Household Knights are, and instead fulfill more of the light/ harassing cavalry roll which the Hundred Kingdoms simply don't have.
It's easy to change units to support your argument without trying to make it as fair a comparison as possible (see above with the Fulminators/ Palladors). You've mentioned that the Stormcast are an elite army, so let's go with that. Building an elite 100 Kingdoms army is easily doable, so let's compare (in euros, as you'd like) the Stormcast vs. the Steel Legion.
The Liberators come in at 116% of the price of the Steel Legion on a per-unit basis, but tip the scales at 140% of the cost of the Steel Legion on a per-model basis. I am not a fan of this comparison because Steel Legion are the elite infantry choice of the 100 Kingdoms (and are also about the same size as the Liberators) so comparing them to the Retributors is more fair being a comparison two of elite infantry choices. The Retributors come in at 109% of the cost of the Steel Legion on a per-unit basis, but are a whopping 262% of the cost on a per-model basis.
I can run off a list of 'basic infantry' comparisons in Euros if you'd like. I intentionally tried to be as fair as possible by selecting entire factions on the AoS website (excluding those with very old product lines, such as Seraphon), and then narrowing it down to 'unit' and then picking the basic infantry units out of the list. I'm trying to be as fair as possible here.
12x Men-at-Arms (Conquest- 100 Kingdoms) €36.00 (€3 per model)
10x Vulkite Berzerkers (AoS- Fyreslayes) €45.00 (post AoS) (€4.50)
5x Tree Revenants (AoS- Sylvaneth) €32.50 (post AoS) (€6.50 per model)
10x Liberators (AoS- Stormcast) €49.00 (post-AoS) (€4.90)
10x Witch Elves (AoS- Daughters of Khaine) €45.00 (pre-AoS) (€4.50 per model)
10x Arkanaut Company (AoS- Kharadron Overlords) €40.00 (post AoS) (€4 per model)
16x Dryads (AoS- Sylvaneth) €33.00 (pre AoS) (€2 per model)
10x Tzaangors (AoS- Chaos) €32.50 (post AoS) (€3.25 per model)
20x Kairic Acolytes (AoS- Chaos) €40.00 (post AoS) (€2 per model)
20x Bloodreavers (AoS- Chaos) €46.00 (post AoS) (€2.30 per model)
20x Crypt Ghouls (AoS- FEC) €35.00 (pre AoS) (€1.75 per model)
20x Savage Orcs (AoS-Orcs) €40 (pre-AoS) (€2 per model)
15x Ardboys (AoS- Ironjawz) €45 (pre-AoS) (€3 per model)
The above list has 12 AoS units that would all be considered basic infantry. Of those, 6 are more expensive, 1 is the same price and 5 are cheaper. its important to note that of that list, only two of the AoS units that are cheaper than the Conquest units have been released in the last 10 years, which was a stipulation that you yourself set forward (new-Ish). It also took me about 10 minutes to type that list out, so as you can see it's pretty easy to find basic infantry from AoS that is more expensive than Conquest.
I will grant you that WHFB miniatures tend to be cheaper than Conquest for basic infantry, roughly the same for Ogre-sized models and more expensive (thought still close) for elite infantry. The limited data we have (the Spires Abomination) suggest that large monsters are cheaper in Conquest than in WHFB. However, looking at models released only since Age of Sigmar was launched in Summer 2015 (4 years ago) it is very apparent very quickly that by simply examining the price we can see that Conquest is cheaper than AoS in almost every case. There are a few cases where it is somewhat close, and there are very few cases where AoS is cheaper.
No hard feelings at all. You are certainly entitled to your opinion and while I hope you can enjoy Conquest I can completely understand budgetary consideration and I know that everyone has things they are willing to spend money on that differ from other people's. There are plenty of games out there that are cheaper than Conquest, to be sure. As an American I'm usually on the receiving end of rough gaming exchange rates (though certainly not as bad as some of our other world citizens like our Canadian and ANZAC brothers and sisters!) so I know how bad it sucks. I sincerely feel for you there!
One of them filthy casuals...
2019/07/22 16:20:12
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
In the UK in my area the game is sadly DOA after people saw the unit prices, a lot of people even cancelled there starters. Saying that the starter is reasonable value even if I personally only like one of the armies in it which is why I did not order it.
Going to watch and see if they do reasonably priced starters for the other factions might pickup the other human faction.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2019/07/23 03:50:46
Subject: Conquest! The Last Argument of Kings! (Latest on pg23: Dweghom Batrep!)
Rec’d my starters today. The figures are giant. The normal human crossbowmen easily stand as tall as Primaris SM. It’s pretty cool IMO. Only issue is, my existing terrain will be dwarfed.
