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2017/10/05 13:40:10
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
Full Frontal Nerdity
2017/10/05 14:23:27
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
By early 12th Century Muslims controlled less than half the country and it was the less populated half other than the Mediterranean Coast. Only reason the Christian kingdoms took so long to beat the crap out of the is because between the big pushes South they were more interested in killing each other as long as the Taifas behaved.
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2017/10/05 14:30:23
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
I'm sorry but this is not how this works. First of all, even if I recognise that independence is always take by the weapons or by inaction of the central goverment, Independence is never adquired without a mayor support from the population. What you are defending here is that a goverment that won the election from the electorade system but that don't has the mayority of the support of the people (2/3 is needed by their OWN constitution) is FORCING a independence movement that the mayority of the catalonian people don't want!
And please, no more "Espanya ens roba" (Spain steal us), because that has been proved FALSE, one time, and another, and another. Catalonia is the Spanish Autonomic Comunity with the highest debt, and the one alongside Vasque Country with the most fiscal and economical privileges! But you are right in one point: Spanish Goverment cares zero about Spanish people. We are run by a bunch of franquist thugs and corrupt politicians.
I'm from Galicia, we had our own independentist movement in the past. It never achieved any kind of noticiable support. But we have a nationalistic galeguist party, the BNG. In some times, they did reached goverment in Galicia from post-electoral pacts and those kind of tricks. If once in the goverment, they forced a independence movement in the premise that Spain steal from Galicia (Fact: Galicia, alongside Extremadura, Murcia, the both Castillas and Asturias is one of the poorest Autonomic Comuniteis of spain, and this is not because people here don't like to work, is because during Franquism all the industry whas moved from those provinces to Catalonia and Vasque Country), even with a minority support from the people, do you will say "Ok,I hope Galicia gets their independence"?
In what moment in time, the fact that you want independence has become a instant moral high ground? All independence movements are right? In what time I live where, not even the law because as said independence movements normally ignore it, but even the support of a mayority of the people isn't needed for a society to become independent? To have a right to become independent?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
Spain was largely dominated by Muslim governments until the late 1400's.
By early 12th Century Muslims controlled less than half the country and it was the less populated half other than the Mediterranean Coast. Only reason the Christian kingdoms took so long to beat the crap out of the is because between the big pushes South they were more interested in killing each other as long as the Taifas behaved.
M.
The Spanish "Reconquista" has been long mythified and in many cases, people just don't know how it worked. Is long demostrated that even under Muslim occupation, the inmense mayority of the population in those "green" regions where still catholic and iberic natives. Many of them forcefully converted to Islam, but after they where free from the goverment of the muslims, they just did goed back to christianism. A fact that meant that on many occasions their living conditions worsened.
And the "Reconquest" wasn't some kind of heroic military campaing. It was, throug centuries, a bunch of little battles and a ton of diplomacy that achieved the change of rulers from the lands, from Muslims to Catholic kings. The fact is that the Muslim half anf the Catholic half fought betweent themselves as much as one versus the other.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 14:42:40
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/05 14:41:02
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
Poor Visigoths, they were the ones that started the idea of Spain (Hispania) as a country and had the uncontested rule over the whole country for 200 years but nobody remembers them.
Answering your comment about the Umayyad Caliphate. The troops of the Caliphate entered Spain conquered most of it circa 718 but by 756 the Umayyad dynasty fled from Abbasid forces and established a exile government in Cordoba where they continued their rule over Al Andalus and part of North Africa for about 150 years or so before collapsing. So no, Spain did not become independent from the Caliphate the same way Poland and occupied France didn't become independent from Nazi Germany when WW2 ended. First Al Andalus or Muslim Spain became the Caliphate, and after a 700 year war in Spain the Christian Kingdoms kicked out the descendants of the invaders. It's just that as usual Spaniards were more interested in fighting each other than pushing South for most of the time.
M.
Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.
About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2017/10/05 18:24:17
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
Yeah. Independence so far has been bunch of rebels saying "Screw you! We are on our own!" and depends either on beating the crap out of former host country(America) or host country not bothering to contest due to other issues(Finland).
If it was question of "legality" according to host country's constitution(like Spain's our constitution gives them no right to declare independence) then Spain wouldn't be independent country either! Hypochrisy at it's finest.
Spain cares zero about people of Catalonia. All it cares is money they get since they they pay more than their share in terms of population.
A question if I may. Spain wouldn't be independent from whom exactly? I'm really intrigued by your comment as the last entity that encompassed what it's nowadays Spain was the Roman Empire and that buckled under it's own weight.
M.
The Ummayad Caliphate controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula after the Romans.
Carthage, Rome, the Visigoths who actually established what would become "Spain" under the Toulous (Portugal would form from the Suevi, another German tribal group that settled loosely in the area now Portugal), and then the Islamic Caliphate via the Berbers who would eventually become their own quai-Caliphate until the success of the Reconquista. Technically speaking there is an important distinction between declaring independence and conquest. Spain never declared independence from anyone. It was continually conquered and reconquered by different groups until eventually you get Spain which managed to go unconquered and thus is still around XD
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2017/10/06 04:35:54
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Spain isn't protesting on grounds of CATALONIANS constitution but that THEIR says Spain is united and cannot be split.
So their arqument is Catalonians are ignoring Spain's law. Well gee that's historically what 100% of independence declarations have been. I'm pretty sure Russian law didn't have allowance for Finland to declare themselves independent. Or Britain have allowance that do this and you can declare legally independent for America. Nor Spain from whatever they went independent from. It's always against law of the former parent country. That's how it works. No country wants part of itself to get separated so they sure don't make law "do this and you get automatically independence".
It's always case of can the separationist fight off(America) or is it too much bother to be worth it to enforce "no you won't"(Finland. With WW1, Civil unrest which would culminate to death of last Tsar Russia clearly decided they don't want to bother dealing with small fry that's are that would become Finland. Certainly we would have been unable to beat the crap out of retaliatory force if Russia had been feeling like not allowing us to get independent!). That or your independence fails.
Now it's therefore question of can Catalonia fight off Spain militarily or will attempt to enforce compliance be too much trouble for Spain resulting in them allowing it. If neither happens then Catalonia won't become independent and leaders will be likely jailed.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 05:27:37
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/10/06 05:43:46
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
It may be many things, but hypocritical isn't one of them. Spain is not a country that declared independence from another, it was formed when Ferdinand and Isabella married and united the two largest kingdoms in Iberia. It wasn't a rebellion from a larger ruling nation, it was formed by merging two smaller nations together.
Ever since, Spain has transitioned between various rulers, but it's always been Spain.
So no, it's not hypocritical of Spain to say that "You can't do that! It's illegal!". It is a bit silly of course, in a "duhhhh" kinda way.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 06:24:19
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/06 06:52:22
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Spain isn't protesting on grounds of CATALONIANS constitution but that THEIR says Spain is united and cannot be split.
So their arqument is Catalonians are ignoring Spain's law.
Their argument is that Catalonians aren't following their own law. There was a 2/3 threshold in the Catalan parliament under Catalan law to pass a new electoral law which the Catalan regional government couldn't get, so they resorted to questionable parliamentary tactics and skipping parliamentary procedures in order to get the law to the floor, and then only with a simple majority.
That's why a judge ruled that the referendum was null and void.
Now that companies are walking out (Catalonia two banks have moved their legal base, and several other companies are doing the same) we'll see what happens next. This is not the XVIII century anymore, there are pensions, healthcare, jobs and all kinds of things people take for granted in jeopardy. That's not something the 70% will risk.
2017/10/06 13:35:47
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Mr. Burning wrote: How badly do Catalans want independence from greater Spain?
If the will is there then jobs and financial security come second to the need for such mundane stability.
The biggest reason the people in the street want independence from Spain is based in a xenophobic nationalism and in economical fallacies, so I'm sure that many people at this point will just prefer an abism that still be part of spain, but many other people isn't gonna be happy to see Catalonia economical structure destroyed by the independence procés.
But at this point Puigdemont and the Catalonian goverment has do various attempts to negotiate with the Central Goverment. Because as I said, nobody in the catalonian or spanish goverment tought for a second that Catalonia could end being independent.
Only the people in the street believed that, from both sides.
As others posters have noted, theres only one way Catalonia can end independent:
-Starting a Civil War, and winning it.
But Spain's "you are breaking Spain's constitution" is hypochricy at it's finest. Catalonia isn't doing anything Spain didn't originally do itself to become independent themselves. I give them points for that arqument when Spain surrenders their independence and returns to be part of what they separated from admitting their independence was illegal from the get-go.
It may be many things, but hypocritical isn't one of them. Spain is not a country that declared independence from another, it was formed when Ferdinand and Isabella married and united the two largest kingdoms in Iberia. It wasn't a rebellion from a larger ruling nation, it was formed by merging two smaller nations together.
Ever since, Spain has transitioned between various rulers, but it's always been Spain.
So no, it's not hypocritical of Spain to say that "You can't do that! It's illegal!". It is a bit silly of course, in a "duhhhh" kinda way.
Yeah, I think Tneva82 you are trying to hard to paint Spain as the "bad" one here. (And I'll separate Spain from the Spanish goverment that we have now). No all countrys have become "independent" from other country.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 13:46:59
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/06 15:04:44
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/06 16:02:30
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/06 17:05:10
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Yeah. India leaving the British Empire is different. India was a burden upon an already crumbling Empire that was holding it's colonies more out of nostalgia than any benefit that holding them gave.
Catalonia is an integral part of Spain, dating all the way back to the 1400s.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Murder people in the street and you will see that 20% of GDP magically vanishing into thin air. Violence is terrible for the economy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 17:21:28
2017/10/06 17:44:58
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
It's actually slightly less than 40%.
92% of the 43% turnout give us 39%.
And if you account for people voting 3, 4 or even 6 times with hidden cameras, that the census and count was a shambles you get that those numbers are pretty meaningless.
2017/10/06 17:46:58
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
Correct??
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 17:47:13
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
It's actually slightly less than 40%.
92% of the 43% turnout give us 39%.
And if you account for people voting 3, 4 or even 6 times with hidden cameras, that the census and count was a shambles you get that those numbers are pretty meaningless.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
2017/10/06 18:03:53
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: No. Stop. America or Finland didn't have their own constitutions when they declared independence, Catalonia does.
*coughs* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Constitution_of_1772#In_Finland_after_1809 The Grand Duchy of Finland actually did have its own constitution (or rather, an amended version of an old Swedish constitution).
Again, no declaration of independence in history (afaik) has ever been legal. That is just not how independence works.
That'll reach me to be sloppy.
What I should have written is that Catalonia has a democratically created constitution that they themselves voted to accept. There was a referendum in 2006 which created the current statutes of self-governance and the Catalan people voted to approve of them. The rule of law applies to the Catalan parliament just as it does to the national one, and both are ignoring it. That can't stand in the long run.
Aye, I agree. But my point is that 'the rule of law' usually flies out of the window as soon as someone mentions 'independence'. If the Dutch had never said "Screw you and your laws" against the Spanish, the Netherlands would still be part of Spain today. In my opinion, every people has the right of self-determination and laws should be done away with if they do not serve the common good. To pretend otherwise would be hypocrisy, as most countries have illegally obtained their independence at some point. Only problem here is that it is still unclear whether a majority of Catalonia's people actually want this. The referendum was pretty clear, but only like 40% voted and there have been allegations of rigging too.
It's also fair to point out that most independence movements rarely have an overwhelming majority of the population giving their full support. The American Revolution was only supported by about 1/3 of the population, the rest was divided between those who were ambivalent and those who were outright loyalists.
Even if only 40% of the population voted, if the ~90% in favor rate is even close to accurate that is a sizable portion. Successful revolutions have occurred with less support.
Still leaves 30% who are in favour.
Now that's a large number and somthing Spain will have to factor in when making there next mov s and future moves even years later.
Xenomancers wrote: Yeah - you aren't getting independence without an armed revolution. That's just the way things are. The nature of the beast.
There is places that have been able to get independence peacefully.
Through out history that is not the case. India being the most obvious example of non violence revolution - I'm sure there are more. Lack of interest from the mother nation is the main reason for that though. Spain is certainly interested in maintaining the 20% of it's GDP it would lose control of if independence occurred. The will murder people in the street to protect that. Anyone who can't see that is just being naive.
Murder people in the street and you will see that 20% of GDP magically vanishing into thin air. Violence is terrible for the economy.
That's true. Civil war or strife will dent a economy alot faster than any other thing you could do.
It crashes entire economies and that of your neighbours too.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/06 18:04:52
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
Correct??
Not really. Juan Carlos father, Don Juan de Borbón, wanted a Constitutive Court and referendum, so Spanish people could chose if they wanted Monarchy or a Republic. Juan Carlos treached his father and did a pact with Franco, becoming his puppet to secure that the power-structures of the Franco's Regimen remained in power, with a change in name.
Franco didn't wanted Monarchy. He wanted his regime to continue, and has time has show us, he succeded.
As Franco said in his last Christmast speech in 1969 "Lo he dejado todo atado y bien atado" (I leave it all tied and tightly bound)
Two years later, in March 1947, General Franco enacted the Law of Succession in the Headquarters of the State (fifth "fundamental law"), in which the "Head of State" was granted for life for the "Caudillo of Spain and of the Crusade, Generalissimo of the Armies, "and Article 6 conferring on Franco the right to designate a successor" as King or Regent "" at any time "and with full capacity to revoke his decision.21 Thus then the monarchy would not be restored but established in the person of the royalty that General Franco decided, thus becoming his successor "in a puppet of the dictator and his political heirs"
You are correct in that the myth about Juan Carlos being the saviour of Spain, making the transition into a Democracy, is a faux. But not in the rest.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/06 18:12:27
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/10/06 18:25:15
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
The latest figures were at 35% for straight up Independence.
All of the polls close to 50% included as independent a number of options like independent within a Federal Spain ir some other convoluted legal formula.
2017/10/06 18:38:04
Subject: Re:Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Since 2012 the independence movement has been somewhere between the 40% and 50% of the catalan population. The referendum is not outside the expected results.
The latest figures were at 35% for straight up Independence.
All of the polls close to 50% included as independent a number of options like independent within a Federal Spain ir some other convoluted legal formula.
Still within the expected parameters, there isn't such difference between 35% and 39%.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 18:38:22
2017/10/06 19:19:58
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2017/10/06 20:35:03
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
Xenomancers wrote: I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
I don't think Spain has ever been terribly unified. If Catalonia gains independence then the Basque region would probably split off too and Spain would fracture and break up.
Xenomancers wrote: I totally agree that civil war is bad for the economy and generally for everyone involved and every nation surrounding you. You can't really expect a country as old as spain let a part of it's land just be taken away because the people that live there want independence. That is just absurd. It would lead to war or military occupation of some kind.
I don't think Spain has ever been terribly unified. If Catalonia gains independence then the Basque region would probably split off too and Spain would fracture and break up.
The divisions and identities still run pretty deep.
They have a strong regional identity. The Spanish government needs to talk this one out. Force might work short term but ideinties, cultures run deep and will only come to head again down the line.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2017/10/07 17:24:06
Subject: Catalan Indyref - Spanish police beat old women, seize ballot boxes, fire rubber bullets at voters.
And the myth of Juan Carlos being 'The Democratic Bourbon' is more or less a faux... Francisco Franco did actually wants to restore Bourbon Monarchy back to Spain. the initial plan was an USA-backed absulute monarchy (???) but the fall of Salaza's Fascist Regime in its lil western neighbour--The Portugal-- in 1974 (Coupled with Bourbon's tyrannical past both in Spain and its ancestral land.. The France) compelled Franco to rethink his transition plan and favors a Parliamentarial 'Constitutional Monarchy' instead... under the blanket of 'Single State' structure. ...
Correct??
Not really. Juan Carlos father, Don Juan de Borbón, wanted a Constitutive Court and referendum, so Spanish people could chose if they wanted Monarchy or a Republic. Juan Carlos treached his father and did a pact with Franco, becoming his puppet to secure that the power-structures of the Franco's Regimen remained in power, with a change in name.
Franco didn't wanted Monarchy. He wanted his regime to continue, and has time has show us, he succeded.
As Franco said in his last Christmast speech in 1969 "Lo he dejado todo atado y bien atado" (I leave it all tied and tightly bound)
Two years later, in March 1947, General Franco enacted the Law of Succession in the Headquarters of the State (fifth "fundamental law"), in which the "Head of State" was granted for life for the "Caudillo of Spain and of the Crusade, Generalissimo of the Armies, "and Article 6 conferring on Franco the right to designate a successor" as King or Regent "" at any time "and with full capacity to revoke his decision.21 Thus then the monarchy would not be restored but established in the person of the royalty that General Franco decided, thus becoming his successor "in a puppet of the dictator and his political heirs"
You are correct in that the myth about Juan Carlos being the saviour of Spain, making the transition into a Democracy, is a faux. But not in the rest.
And What about the fall of Salazar fascist regime in Portugal? Did it strikes fear of the popular uprising in Spain too?
