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Martel732 wrote:
Ignore the shvs. They suck at winning.

IDK, a Tallarn or Catachan all-flamer Banehammer that is designed to deliver combat units and charge into things could be super evil. That crush them stratagem, with a few synergies, can be pretty nasty. Then you have the awesome power of 8 heavy flamers.

Big models seem to be victims this edition and suck at holding territory.

Martel732 wrote:
Ignore the shvs. They suck at winning.

I'd argue, every game with Guard vs Tyranids game so far has been won by my Shadowsword, and almost the Shadowsword alone. Tyranids seem to be anti-tank challenged, which they can solve by engaging them in CQC to prevent them from moving or shooting, but a Shadowsword can fire while in melee and is equipped with an arsenal that is very effective against monsters and swarms.


Valhallan seems to be a excellent choice for them, since it will basically never degrade, or Mordian, since the overwatch from a Stormlord would be gloriously devastating.

With the number of mortal wounds they can generate, I can't imagine how Tyranids struggle with anything other than hordes.

Maybe all the SHV I have access to just suck compared to the field.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
The only thing Mathhammer assumes are the following six givens:

1) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 on a six sided die.
2) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 2 on a six sided die.
3) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 3 on a six sided die.
4) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 4 on a six sided die.
5) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 5 on a six sided die.
6) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 6 on a six sided die.

Anything else like surface tension and dice mass fall under undefinable variables that prevent any consistency in calculations and can easily be subverted by using properly balanced dice on a flat surface. Assuming ideal conditions is always necessary because those conditions are what we should be striving for.

Not rolling misshapen frankendice on top of a pizza.

Studies have shown that untrue.

No, it's true.

Any additional givens vary on a case by case basis. People can easily account for unit sizes and terrain using standard deviations. They can easily determine which models are in range in the calculation too. When someone purposely creates an ideal situation, that's not Mathhammer's fault. You can't blame the calculator for giving you the wrong result if you gave it the wrong equation.

The only thing Mathhammer does assume is that the dice rolls are perfectly balanced and that there is no weighted dice or imbalanced side issues going on. Everything else is the subjective interpretation of the one doing the calculation. Math can be used to prove all kinds of things but if the relevance of the result depends entirely on how you went about arriving at that conclusion. That's why some Mathhammer results are better than others. Some players actually take into account multiple possibilities instead of the Perfect Ideals that Will Always Happen. Challenging the result is more about finding a common situation where it doesn't work out that way, at which point any true mathematician should be able to adjust his formula to account for the common occurrence.

Martel732 wrote:
With the number of mortal wounds they can generate, I can't imagine how Tyranids struggle with anything other than hordes.

Maybe all the SHV I have access to just suck compared to the field.

How are they inflicting so many mortal wounds to your Super Heavies?

Spore Mines and their launchers only do 1 mortal wound each, and Fellblades, Falchions, and Glaives have 26 wounds.

Smite only targets the closest enemy unit, so it's not hard, with the exception of the Glaive, not to be the closest model.



From what I've seen, they rip through hordes like butter but have a hard time wrecking tanks, and instead lock them out in melee to keep them out of the way. And looking through their list, I'm inclined to go with this.

 Arkaine wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:
The only thing Mathhammer assumes are the following six givens:

1) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 on a six sided die.
2) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 2 on a six sided die.
3) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 3 on a six sided die.
4) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 4 on a six sided die.
5) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 5 on a six sided die.
6) There is a 1/6 chance of rolling a 6 on a six sided die.

Anything else like surface tension and dice mass fall under undefinable variables that prevent any consistency in calculations and can easily be subverted by using properly balanced dice on a flat surface. Assuming ideal conditions is always necessary because those conditions are what we should be striving for.

Not rolling misshapen frankendice on top of a pizza.

Studies have shown that untrue.

No, it's true.

Any additional givens vary on a case by case basis. People can easily account for unit sizes and terrain using standard deviations. They can easily determine which models are in range in the calculation too. When someone purposely creates an ideal situation, that's not Mathhammer's fault. You can't blame the calculator for giving you the wrong result if you gave it the wrong equation.

The only thing Mathhammer does assume is that the dice rolls are perfectly balanced and that there is no weighted dice or imbalanced side issues going on. Everything else is the subjective interpretation of the one doing the calculation. Math can be used to prove all kinds of things but if the relevance of the result depends entirely on how you went about arriving at that conclusion. That's why some Mathhammer results are better than others. Some players actually take into account multiple possibilities instead of the Perfect Ideals that Will Always Happen. Challenging the result is more about finding a common situation where it doesn't work out that way, at which point any true mathematician should be able to adjust his formula to account for the common occurrence.

There is actually an article somewhere on Dakka where a chap got some students to make many thousands of rolls of standard rounded-edge dice, like the kind GW sells, as well as casino-grade dice. The results were pretty interesting- casino grade dice were damn close to perfect 1/6 chance, but they are hugely expensive compared to normal dice. The rounded-edge dice were hugely skewed towards rolling 1's- something like 30% of rolls scored a one. It is something inherent to the design of cheaper dice, which casino-grade dice are extensively precision engineered to avoid. I'm sure someone has a link to the article.

I spent over £65 on casino grade dice on the strength of that article.

I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
From what I've seen, they rip through hordes like butter but have a hard time wrecking tanks, and instead lock them out in melee to keep them out of the way. And looking through their list, I'm inclined to go with this.

Which is weird because we laugh about how useless genestealers are in my area. Absurdly fragile units that can be taken down with ease, particularly by hordes. Even with autogun cultists butcher them. My little 40 point unit guys kill 2 genestealers a turn consistently, making up half their cost a turn. Genestealers are basically free points, god forbid it was against index guard. Seriously, two units of bare guardsman shoot a genestealer unit with FRFSRF, 110 point cost, kills 8-9 genestealers in a single turn, meaning 96-108 points in a single turn. Basic guardsman with a commander giving orders and no other upgrades can kill their points in genestealers every turn. Not even talking about conscript shenanigans, which is what tyranids have to deal with right now.

Do you just ignore them and let them walk into your lines, or do you lack anti infantry and don't use the guardsmen, or do they somehow constantly charge out of their expensive deepstrike? Like walk me through here, genestealers are considered one of the most laughably useless units in 8e in my area, saying they threaten guard is weird, I've seen guard stomp genestealers and nids into the dirt no matter what they do.

What an ultra competitive area have you SilverAlien. I have seen that Genestealers are considered in all places one of the strongest units in the Tyranid index army and one of the best meele units in the game alongside Khorne Berzerkers.

Martel732 wrote:
I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

Spore mines are 1 mortal wound on a 2+ and cause d3 mortal wounds on a 6; that includes ones from the launcher.

Mucolid Spore mines are d3 on a 2+ and cause D6 on a 6.

At least on the Index.

Martel732 wrote:I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

Its:

1 - Nothing
2-5 - 1 Mortal Wound
6 - D3 Mortal Wounds

SilverAlien wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
From what I've seen, they rip through hordes like butter but have a hard time wrecking tanks, and instead lock them out in melee to keep them out of the way. And looking through their list, I'm inclined to go with this.

Which is weird because we laugh about how useless genestealers are in my area. Absurdly fragile units that can be taken down with ease, particularly by hordes. Even with autogun cultists butcher them. My little 40 point unit guys kill 2 genestealers a turn consistently, making up half their cost a turn. Genestealers are basically free points, god forbid it was against index guard. Seriously, two units of bare guardsman shoot a genestealer unit with FRFSRF, 110 point cost, kills 8-9 genestealers in a single turn, meaning 96-108 points in a single turn. Basic guardsman with a commander giving orders and no other upgrades can kill their points in genestealers every turn. Not even talking about conscript shenanigans, which is what tyranids have to deal with right now.

Do you just ignore them and let them walk into your lines, or do you lack anti infantry and don't use the guardsmen, or do they somehow constantly charge out of their expensive deepstrike? Like walk me through here, genestealers are considered one of the most laughably useless units in 8e in my area, saying they threaten guard is weird, I've seen guard stomp genestealers and nids into the dirt no matter what they do.

They make their charge, and they don't work alone. If one fails, there's enough redundancy in re-rolls and other units to get at least enough of them in.

They never take overwatch, because a Trygon(s) that brought with Hormagaunts precedes them. Without all the units working together, they're left out in the open to dry after taking out the first Conscript squad.


There's also Hive Commander, which really should have at least been on all Hive Tryants, not just the Swarmlord.

SirDonlad wrote:I spent over £65 on casino grade dice on the strength of that article.

lol me too...

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ignore the shvs. They suck at winning.

I'd argue, every game with Guard vs Tyranids game so far has been won by my Shadowsword, and almost the Shadowsword alone. Tyranids seem to be anti-tank challenged, which they can solve by engaging them in CQC to prevent them from moving or shooting, but a Shadowsword can fire while in melee and is equipped with an arsenal that is very effective against monsters and swarms.


Valhallan seems to be a excellent choice for them, since it will basically never degrade, or Mordian, since the overwatch from a Stormlord would be gloriously devastating.

Trickstick wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Ignore the shvs. They suck at winning.

IDK, a Tallarn or Catachan all-flamer Banehammer that is designed to deliver combat units and charge into things could be super evil. That crush them stratagem, with a few synergies, can be pretty nasty. Then you have the awesome power of 8 heavy flamers.

SirDonlad wrote:I spent over £65 on casino grade dice on the strength of that article.

I have to admit i was excited when i saw all the new AM rules... especially Baneblades
Still trying to figure what regiment rules/ orders, traits and strats work best with them. Have been running my 2 Shadowswords and 1 Stormlord with 4 Dual heavy flamer sponsons loaded with plasma.. Catachan and Valhallan look so good for them.. really not sure which to go with. Now im also looking at the Banehammer ! 2 of those things with 4 dual heavy flamer sponsons look so so good ! Unfortunatly the Shadowsword doesnt take huge advantage of it. But holding 2 of those things in reserve and dropping in front of the enemy.. advancing and shooting turning my Heavy flamers into assault weapons.. seems so nasty !

 SirDonlad wrote:
I spent over £65 on casino grade dice on the strength of that article.

Problem is, it won't do any good for most 40K situations if you don't have a proper felt pit or similar space to roll them.

Lack of rounded corners, etc.. makes it actually easier to cheat with them and/or get loopsided results if you always pick them up with the same side up.

Casino Dice need to fly a few feet and bounce. Usually Casinos also require you to have them bounce against the back wall and roll back a little ways, so the dice actually randomize.

The rounded "board game" dice you use in Monopoly, board games and (usually) wargaming were made specifically to get a better random result in the context (!) of a kitchen table or something like that where you cannot roll them across a large felt table Tony-Stark-style.

Not a huge IG player. I did play them along time ago, had a massive Catachan army in like 2000 when the codex/supplement came out, no tanks just deathworld, like they where back then, but sold them all. Just was reading this thread for fun (have had a lot of IG regiments in my paint boxes for years. I'm getting to the bottom of my paint piles of my other Imperium armies so am starting to do IG in conjunction with new codex).

People actually worry about what dice they have? 95% of time when playing with someone and they roll all their to hit and to wound rolls (I ask first of course "Do you mind me rolling your dice?") and I just roll their dice (makes it easier when doing saves). I also let them do the same in my turn or in melee etc on my dice.

I gather must be a joke thing...

 SirDonlad wrote:
I spent over £65 on casino grade dice on the strength of that article.

I have a dice tumbler and multiple sets of "larger" dice, including a couple 5 die sets sets of the large, translucent d6s they bundle into poker sets. I love the tumbler so much.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

fresus wrote:
8th ed has clear balance issues at the competitive level, but at the casual level it's much better than in 7th.

The AM codex might be the first one to break the casual balance.

Personally, I am weirded out by the idea that casual and competitve balance should be considered different things. Of course, I'm more bothered about how a majority of "tactics" discussion focuses more on "what units" to take, rather than actual play. If 8th is more "casual-balanced", this is because of the flatlining of unit defense values (ymmv if this is a good thing) as well as making cover mostly irrelevant, as well as removing/replacing a fair few decisions.

To me they are.
If a codex with 30 entries has 2 extremely OP units, and 28 normal ones, it probably won't affect casual play that much, unless these OP units are really core choices (like the army's main troop choice). A casual list with a variety of units won't include much of these OP units, and will be fine.
A competitive list will however try to take as many of these OP units as possible, and nothing else, resulting in a very strong list.
So a very small number of OP units won't affect casual and competitive the same way.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
What you've brought in your list governs what strategic choices you'll have at any time, and how effective those choices are for you if you make them.

Therefore, it's best to start with list building. If the lists are unequal, then the conclusion will be forgone, because the opposition will not be able to execute the required counters effectively.

Once the lists are equal in power and have the tools inside them to confront most threatening strategies, the tactics on the table top take precedence. Where my Razorbacks are moving to to get optimal sight lines isn't relevant if I don't have Razorbacks, as it were.



Also, Tyranids are very good. I fully expect the Tyranids to end up on the same level as the Guard on their own once they get their codex, especially with strategems that will probably allow them to recycle units, replace casualties, and suppress enemy shooting. I'd also note that reserving Genestealers and Hormagaunts using Cult Ambush and Trygons is very powerful, and can lead to a devastating T1 strike that can rip through screening hordes and still make it into combat with the vehicles behind.

I don't think the evidence is there to say Tyranids are in a good place. They've been pretty unsuccessful at a tournament level. Casually, they have some good stuff -- the codex has a lot more internal balance than it used to, but they're still lacking in many ways. Hormagaunts may be good at roping in dudes, but they're not very good at killing them (I do think Genestealers are great -- definitely the best thing Tyranids have right now). Mostly, I'm disappointed that Nidzilla just isn't viable. I don't get why the big beasties have to hit on 4+s.

The problem as I see it is the 50% of the force that are starting on the board. My friend employed Hive Guard, Flyrants, and some additional Infantry as his on-board presence, to some effect. So far, in our games, he's had no real problem with my Conscripts and Artillery, the Hive Guard in particular were fairly okay at crippling my artillery units, but has choked on my Shadowsword, which has taken out his Synapse support and allowed me to rout his troops in short order and is immune to the melee lockdown effect.


Roping in dudes is amazing. You don't have to kill Manticores to turn them off, and the 6" pile-in and consolidate allows to you charge one unit, eliminate it with a different one of your units, pile in 6" to a new unit with the Hormagaunts, take a significant chunk out of that one, then consolidate into the tanks, completely preventing them from shooting and giving you total board control. Hormagaunts can threaten tanks 13" behind the front line.

I'll definitely admit that Hormas are probably better than I'm giving them credit for -- I haven't experimented with them very much in 8th, and those are powerful capabilities. SHVs terrify my Nids though -- hell, even Land Raiders are hard enough to pop. I'll rope myself back on topic by saying that the IG buffs to those big tanks are the only thing in the new codex that baffles me. Otherwise, I love the book, and I'm super happy for Guard players.

Tyranids have always suffered against big targets, i think that it is intended as a faction flaw. All factions have one (AM included) so i don't see why tyranids shouldn't. That said, i love hormas, they are the reason why i play 'nids. I also agree that the only change in the new AM codex that has me worried are the SHVs, but i'll wait and see for the actual effects. Other than that this codex is a welcome nerf to the imperial soups, maybe too mild on the conscripts, but surely well done on the scions. AM on it's own will never be a broken faction, since it can do only one thing, static gunlines weak against hit penalties. That style of play is hard countered by so many lists out there that i don't honestly think that we will ever see a pure AM army becoming a top list. They can be unfun, but not broken. What really were making AM lists so powerful were the scions, which gave AM list a much needed ability to perform surgical strikes, drop on objectives and in general get close and personal with the enemy. Now that they pay a reasonably high price for it, i want to see the impact on pure AM and soups.

In response to the OP, my local club isn't doing anything, really. So far we've not found AM to be so incredibly game-breaking to need any fixes.

But generally we play friendly games with armies mostly composed of models we like the look of. Overly optimised tournament armies are frowned on, unless players have organised to do that in advance.

As many of the recent tournaments have shown, 8ed doesn't really work in a competitive setting. If you really mix-max units and buffs, and take optimisation really far, you end up with two armies that will annihilate each other in the first turn. So we don't do that, and our games tend to be full length and tense.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
In response to the OP, my local club isn't doing anything, really. So far we've not found AM to be so incredibly game-breaking to need any fixes.

But generally we play friendly games with armies mostly composed of models we like the look of. Overly optimised tournament armies are frowned on, unless players have organised to do that in advance.

As many of the recent tournaments have shown, 8ed doesn't really work in a competitive setting. If you really mix-max units and buffs, and take optimisation really far, you end up with two armies that will annihilate each other in the first turn. So we don't do that, and our games tend to be full length and tense.

Dunno if you read the whole title, but this thread's question was specifically about hiw they work *in tournaments*

I don't really understand *in tournaments" how an AM list could ever hope to win against any of the following lists:

- Raven guard
- Alpha legion
- Azrael parking lot
- DG with Mortarion

And probably many more that i'm not recalling at the moment.

 Purifier wrote:
Dunno if you read the whole title, but this thread's question was specifically about hiw they work *in tournaments*

Oops! My mistake - must have forgotten that by the time I got to OP's last line!

In that case, nothing to add other than I think the problem is less 'what will X army do in tournaments' and more an issue that 8ed as a game doesn't really work in a tournament setting.

Martel732 wrote:
I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

First they roll to hit. Then its 1-nothing happens 2-5 1 mortal 6-d3 mortals. They cost 36 points. If they do miss their shot becomes a mine that does the same thing (but you can shoot it before it hits you) Ultimately if you spam like 15 biovores - you will get an average of 8 mortal wounds on a target - but that doesnt take into account for what happens to the missed spore mines. They are best against flyers because flyers can't avoid the mines because they are forced to move. Really - they suck. Only reliable method Nids have to deal with SHV is close combat - but Nids are probably the best at getting into combat in the game. They can easily charge first turn with 2-3 units. Armies that rely on shooting struggle with this - but not AM. AM has more than enough bodies to stop CC from typing up any important units. Unlike ADmech who have a bunch of units that can't fall back from CC and shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I don't really understand *in tournaments" how an AM list could ever hope to win against any of the following lists:

- Raven guard
- Alpha legion
- Azrael parking lot
- DG with Mortarion

And probably many more that i'm not recalling at the moment.

It's quite simple really. AM can hide a significant portion of their army and still shoot with it - and most of their shooting is effective against EVERYTHING. Whats available to shoot? 3 Point models. This is basically an auto win condition.

 Galas wrote:
What an ultra competitive area have you SilverAlien. I have seen that Genestealers are considered in all places one of the strongest units in the Tyranid index army and one of the best meele units in the game alongside Khorne Berzerkers.

Bezerkers are a little different. Still glass cannons, but sv 3+ is a little bit more durable against basic AP 0 guns (twice as durable at +4 ppm). Plus rhinos are more consistent and cheaper delivery than the way tyranids have to deepstrike, particularly on units which can't reroll charges. Unless the rhino gets wrecked, the bezerkers are getting the charge. With deepstrike 1/4 to 1/3 units of genestealers will hit combat on average or there about if I remember the charge math correctly.

It's just... never seen genestealers do anything very useful. They look good on paper, but won't surivive more than a turn and struggle to get into combat and inflict damage before they do.

Now, pure strain stealers with cult ambush? Much better after the point changes, 3ppm more to deepstrike, with rolls of 5/6 guaranteeing charges and the rest offering varying degrees of usefulness is quite a bit more effective. Easier to take multiple small units. That's why I never see anyone use normal genestealers these days, all the tyranid players I know run them in a GSC detachment of their own.

There has been a pretty clear consensus that genestealers are laughably bad compared to purestrains around here (also that GSC is generally better than tyranids as a whole but that's a different discussion).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
They make their charge, and they don't work alone. If one fails, there's enough redundancy in re-rolls and other units to get at least enough of them in.

They never take overwatch, because a Trygon(s) that brought with Hormagaunts precedes them. Without all the units working together, they're left out in the open to dry after taking out the first Conscript squad.

Wait... do you play power level by any chance? Because I keep noticing you are saying rerolls, and talking an trygons like they make charges consistently as well, and I'm thinking you may be talking about power level where stratagems can be reused multiple times in a phase. I imagine that would make alpha strike tyranids a bit scarier. I'm still unsure how they don't get shot up turn 2, but this makes more sense.

I've never had my Genestealers get shot before reaching combat. I have also torn through conscript screens and MEQ alike with them. If someone is having problems getting them into combat, they are playing a really odd list.

As far as SHV, I struggle so much with them, that I refuse to play any army with more than 2 at 2k points. I just can't provide them a good challenge. At 2 it's likely a loss for me, but I'm willing to try.

Horde armies and elite armies are what nids love to go in to. It's armor that is our bane. I run two units of 3 Hive Guard to try to help with that, but ultimately, armor is really tough for us to combat in any numbers.

Those playing Nidzilla are struggling because they just don't play well in 8th. I run very few monsters in my lists now a days, instead concentrating on gaunts, genestealers and gargoyles for the majority of my units.

It creates a similar problem to what people face when playing against guard, large number of unbreakable units with a ton of shooting and mobility. I can't wait to have the ability to bring units back with a stratagem or receive different hive fleet abilities on top of that.

As long as people are not listbuilding for hordes, IG and Nids should do very well.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

First they roll to hit. Then its 1-nothing happens 2-5 1 mortal 6-d3 mortals. They cost 36 points. If they do miss their shot becomes a mine that does the same thing (but you can shoot it before it hits you) Ultimately if you spam like 15 biovores - you will get an average of 8 mortal wounds on a target - but that doesnt take into account for what happens to the missed spore mines. They are best against flyers because flyers can't avoid the mines because they are forced to move. Really - they suck. Only reliable method Nids have to deal with SHV is close combat - but Nids are probably the best at getting into combat in the game. They can easily charge first turn with 2-3 units. Armies that rely on shooting struggle with this - but not AM. AM has more than enough bodies to stop CC from typing up any important units. Unlike ADmech who have a bunch of units that can't fall back from CC and shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I don't really understand *in tournaments" how an AM list could ever hope to win against any of the following lists:

- Raven guard
- Alpha legion
- Azrael parking lot
- DG with Mortarion

And probably many more that i'm not recalling at the moment.

It's quite simple really. AM can hide a significant portion of their army and still shoot with it - and most of their shooting is effective against EVERYTHING. Whats available to shoot? 3 Point models. This is basically an auto win condition.

Hiding a significant portion of your army doesn't matter. It's only -1 with Stygies. Pask shoots 49 shots, at BS 2. You think Stygies will hide from him? Other tanks in his army will have a worse BS but can DOUBLE TAP so that works out. And can't tanks take advantage of Cadian's doctrines? Stay still, double tap, reroll ones, or get the Take Aim stratagem and reroll all misses.

The ability to fall back seriously handicaps melee armies, as there is no way to lock in units and their is absolutely no penalty for falling back when you're IG and can just issue the get back in the fight order from one of your numerous cheap commanders. Then the melee unit is at the mercy of the entire gunline that didn't move and can now double tap and take advantage of whatever orders and broken stratagem combination you desire.

Nobody has offered up a solution to what GW will do about the AM codex and tournaments. I'm not sure there is a solution and think with this codex we've ushered in the era of necessary soup and AM dominance.

brother_b wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I was told spore mines were D3 when I was playing them.

First they roll to hit. Then its 1-nothing happens 2-5 1 mortal 6-d3 mortals. They cost 36 points. If they do miss their shot becomes a mine that does the same thing (but you can shoot it before it hits you) Ultimately if you spam like 15 biovores - you will get an average of 8 mortal wounds on a target - but that doesnt take into account for what happens to the missed spore mines. They are best against flyers because flyers can't avoid the mines because they are forced to move. Really - they suck. Only reliable method Nids have to deal with SHV is close combat - but Nids are probably the best at getting into combat in the game. They can easily charge first turn with 2-3 units. Armies that rely on shooting struggle with this - but not AM. AM has more than enough bodies to stop CC from typing up any important units. Unlike ADmech who have a bunch of units that can't fall back from CC and shoot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
I don't really understand *in tournaments" how an AM list could ever hope to win against any of the following lists:

- Raven guard
- Alpha legion
- Azrael parking lot
- DG with Mortarion

And probably many more that i'm not recalling at the moment.

It's quite simple really. AM can hide a significant portion of their army and still shoot with it - and most of their shooting is effective against EVERYTHING. Whats available to shoot? 3 Point models. This is basically an auto win condition.

Hiding a significant portion of your army doesn't matter. It's only -1 with Stygies. Pask shoots 49 shots, at BS 2. You think Stygies will hide from him? Other tanks in his army will have a worse BS but can DOUBLE TAP so that works out. And can't tanks take advantage of Cadian's doctrines? Stay still, double tap, reroll ones, or get the Take Aim stratagem and reroll all misses.

The ability to fall back seriously handicaps melee armies, as there is no way to lock in units and their is absolutely no penalty for falling back when you're IG and can just issue the get back in the fight order from one of your numerous cheap commanders. Then the melee unit is at the mercy of the entire gunline that didn't move and can now double tap and take advantage of whatever orders and broken stratagem combination you desire.

Nobody has offered up a solution to what GW will do about the AM codex and tournaments. I'm not sure there is a solution and think with this codex we've ushered in the era of necessary soup and AM dominance.

AM is Astra Militarum. The common shorthand for Adeptus Mechanicus is AdMech, to avoid confusion. He's talking about Astra Militarum, not AdMech. AdMech can't hide anything. We don't have any indirect fire weapons.

I think it's a fair point that the Raven Guard trait really hurts Guard gunlines. Yes, Pask don't care, although the Punisher only has a 24" range and he's one model (which is very likely to get blown up turn 1). For everything else, whether you're re-rolling 1s or re-rolling misses or whatever, BS4+ is hurt a lot more by -1 to hit than BS3+ is. One could imagine an Eldar or Tyranid army with the RG trait doing extremely well given their access to Conceal and Malanthropes. Index Guard would have relied on deep-striking Scions to come down within 12" and trouble-shoot; this is a lot harder for Codex Guard.

Dionysodorus wrote:
I think it's a fair point that the Raven Guard trait really hurts Guard gunlines. Yes, Pask don't care, although the Punisher only has a 24" range and he's one model (which is very likely to get blown up turn 1). For everything else, whether you're re-rolling 1s or re-rolling misses or whatever, BS4+ is hurt a lot more by -1 to hit than BS3+ is. One could imagine an Eldar or Tyranid army with the RG trait doing extremely well given their access to Conceal and Malanthropes. Index Guard would have relied on deep-striking Scions to come down within 12" and trouble-shoot; this is a lot harder for Codex Guard.

It'd be a good point, but the reason it doesn't matter is nothing in the SM army list that can really benefit from that trait is worth using. Devastators are more fragile than a predator for cost even with the trait, most SM units want to be in RF range which negates it, rifleman dreads don't exactly have a good cost to firepower ratio.

Unless you use FW dreads, raven guard is never going to actually be any good, because this is an edition where tanks do the job so much better than SM infantry could ever hope to.

Now, admech is actually worth discussing, because the -1 applies to things like Kastalens, dragoons, and onagers (and also something people seem to forget when discussing the admech codex). That actually makes admech pretty good at dealing with IG.