What is GW going to do to fix the new Astra Militarum codex mess in tournaments they have created?

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**brother_b**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
jimmyjames2112 wrote:
my 2 pence.

OP as heck. Every unit is very viable, (except hydras) Most codexes have to be pretty decerning with the units they select to be decent, while I'm pretty sure guard could just throw darts at the appendix toss in Yarric, and have a fair shot vs any ones "all comers list"

That said, I love the book, and that Ill now see a wider variety of guard, and story behind peoples armies.

I recently bought into Dark Eldar and Ynari, and I seriously hope they can stand up better then my Raptors have been.

I don't know if you can throw darts at a board and autowin, IG has and always will be heavily about combos, and there's definitely some dumb combos you could take that would be almost auto losses.

That said, I don't feel like all units being viable choices should be considered an OP codex. That's literally the point of a balanced codex, I should be able to look at the book and say "ah, ok, that's what this unit is for. I don't need it for this list but I can totally see where I would want it." The codex does a pretty good job at that in my opinion. Almost every unit has a regiment that it will function well with and certain buffs that make it come into its own. The way your IG army plays massively changes based on its regiment, and that in itself is really awesome to see. I feel more like I bought 7 codexes in one, and I really love the idea that no two guard players will be alike based on what Regiments they take. IG is going to be an absolute nightmare to prepare for now, you could be facing anything from a static gunline to an elusive tank army to an artillery park with assault infantry in front, many other variants, or even combinations of the above. I think this is part of the reason why people hate the codex so much in some instances, IG used to be a really predictable force that you could plan for, but now even if you know what regiment the guy has good luck guessing what he's actually taking and planning on counters for it. And since IG players tend to have stupidly large collections, if a meta wisens up to what they have and starts to counter, they can change their list completely on a whim and throw people through a loop to a degree that no other codex can when it comes to "chapter tactics".

The other problem isn't that every unit is viable, it's that many things are so damn cheap it's just overwhelming, especially since regiment traits were added for free and majorly change units' behaviors. It's like someone wrote the points with 7th in mind, to an almost worrying degree. I'm taking the same lists I had in 7th, down to the exact wargear and squad layouts, and yet I'm just hitting far harder than I ever did before. Infantry last longer, tanks take longer to shut down, fire is more reliable, cover is easier to deal with and yet at the same time I no longer need to rely on it, etc. etc. and that's before I add in the additional stuff I'm getting with the spare points I have. It's frustrating because whoever wrote this book clearly loved Imperial Guard and played it, there are so many little touches that really show someone cared about this book and did their best on it. It's just that things are too cheap, almost as if the book was written in a vacuum without knowledge of what other armies were going to be priced at, as internal points costs are for the most part very consistent and reasonable.

If the IG codex got a points tweak tomorrow, with more realistic points that keep 8th's changes in mind, 95% of the codex would be fixed. Leman Russes would be much more balanced with a slight points increase, infantry across the board could use a 1pt increase, characters could use a 5-10 increase in many instances, and so many other small things. The command points rerolls are stupid good and one of the few things I don't feel get properly adjusted even with point adjustments, but honestly that's because our strategems are so good, not because we have so many points. The issue is many armies have strategems that are for the most part almost entirely useless, while most IG traits have a lot of utility and can be game changing. For example if space marine armies were showing up with 20 command points tomorrow I don't think you'd see much issue with it, nor admech or chaos. Combined with the fact command points are so easy for us to get and that we can generate them as well, that's what makes it so powerful. Only way to really fix that would be to make the warlord trait and relic work on 6's in my opinion, at that point they'd be pretty balanced and not an autotake, while still being handy. Otherwise you'd have to tweak strategem point costs across the board and just accept IG gets more command points than any other army in the game if they want them.

It'll take more than a slight points increase to fix this codex. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Who in the world thought it was good to allow something like double shooting tanks, combined with full rerolls (Cadia + order), combined with ultra-cheap troops that are still viable, indirect fire units that benefit from doctrines, sturdy units (tanks/ogryns/super heavies), excellent mobility (move move move 24" potential), and extremely cheap commanders allowing numerous orders per turn. This faction doesn't seem to have any weaknesses, no matter how you build it.

I mean, what were they thinking? Okay, I'm all for giving the codex time and letting the table be the judge. That being said, in the half-dozen or so online battle reports I've seen most guard opponents have been able to deal with infantry, or tanks, but never both.

I recently returned, and have played several games now. I love 8th edition, it brought me back. I have a bunch of old IG and the common man army has always been a soft spot for met. The thing is, these guys play more like elite infantry than most "elite infantry" (I'm looking at you SM/CSM).

I don't blame guard players for being excited. You got a powerful codex! Cheers! Enjoy!

I'm just super bummed that the supposedly balanced 8th edition seems to have started some sort of power creep, and it waxed mega-powerful with the guard codex. I didn't want that for 8th edition.

Anyway, I'd be happy for a slight revamping of the points, but some of the abilities (catachan, cadia) are sooo poweful. What's the solution? No more negative posts for me, carry on guardsmen.

**JohnHwangDD**

brother_b wrote:
I'm just super bummed that the supposedly balanced 8th edition seems to have started some sort of power creep

IOW, not at all different from 3rd edition's move from rulebook to Codices.

**NurglesR0T**

My problem with IG at the moment is that the codex is not enjoyable to play against at all. Similar to Taudar and the same extent, Eldar at the peak of 7th.

Sure, you can try to play against it and you might even pull out a close win sometimes. But the game is boring and not fun. Spending 3 hours thinking "is the game over yet?" is time I'd rather spend elsewhere. I don't have a lot of hobby time available each week, so when I do get a chance to have a game, I want it to be enjoyable - for both players.

Leman Russes should never have been given the ability to shoot twice. I honestly don't know what they were thinking with that. If anything, they should have included a -1 to hit debuff if you choose to double tap (similar to combis)

Almost all their vehicles benefiting from Regiment doctrines? Even the super heavies? I know dreads got tactics in SM/CSM, but a 8 wound dreadnought with a twin-lascannon is not even in the same ball park as a Russ. Every list will always include Pask in a Punisher - because, well why wouldn't you want 40 shots hitting on 2's? (almost always rerolling)

And a point decrease for almost everything that was already an auto-take in the index?

I genuinely hope that Chapter Approved rebalances some of the issues with the IG codex. IMO as it is now, IG players will eventually find it hard to play. "Oh you play IG? Um, nah I'm good, actually waiting to play someone else"

^ above is completely anecdotal and obviously doesn't represent the opinion of the player base.

**N.I.B.**

Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

**MrMoustaffa**

N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

If you're playing standard deployment where it's 12'' from each table edge, like a lot of players do, sure, it might get through.

If you're playing other deployments with deeper backfields, such as hammer and anvil, I don't think it will work quite so well. At that point the IG player can spread out enough and have a deep enough defense that you realistically just aren't breaking through it on the first turn with assault. He's going to have to turtle up quite a bit to ensure he shuts it down but that's what conscripts are for.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

brother_b wrote:

It'll take more than a slight points increase to fix this codex. In fact, I don't even know where to start. Who in the world thought it was good to allow something like double shooting tanks, combined with full rerolls (Cadia + order), combined with ultra-cheap troops that are still viable, indirect fire units that benefit from doctrines, sturdy units (tanks/ogryns/super heavies), excellent mobility (move move move 24" potential), and extremely cheap commanders allowing numerous orders per turn. This faction doesn't seem to have any weaknesses, no matter how you build it.

I mean, what were they thinking? Okay, I'm all for giving the codex time and letting the table be the judge. That being said, in the half-dozen or so online battle reports I've seen most guard opponents have been able to deal with infantry, or tanks, but never both.

I recently returned, and have played several games now. I love 8th edition, it brought me back. I have a bunch of old IG and the common man army has always been a soft spot for met. The thing is, these guys play more like elite infantry than most "elite infantry" (I'm looking at you SM/CSM).

I don't blame guard players for being excited. You got a powerful codex! Cheers! Enjoy!

I'm just super bummed that the supposedly balanced 8th edition seems to have started some sort of power creep, and it waxed mega-powerful with the guard codex. I didn't want that for 8th edition.

Anyway, I'd be happy for a slight revamping of the points, but some of the abilities (catachan, cadia) are sooo poweful. What's the solution? No more negative posts for me, carry on guardsmen.

The reason I say minor points increases is because they add up over the army. Even a single point increase on conscripts ups their price 33%, and on infantry squads that's a 25% increase. A 15% increase on a basic russ with a heavy bolter would roughly knock out an entire tank at even 1500pts. They don't seem like a big deal but they'll add up really fast especially if they're across the board. Obviously I have not had time to do math and playtest these it's just a rough example. You could find out conscripts alone are easily worth 5pts a model and I wouldn't be terribly surprised, I've had the book for 12 hours at this point. I still believe points changes would fix many of the issues. To be honest, IG players could use somewhat better infantry that they don't need 200 of the bloody things to play a game, I'd much rather take buffed infantry that I only get a 100 at 6-7pts a model than go back to the dark days of 7th where 200+ was considered bare minimum to get by. It's just draining to play with/against.

Plus points changes are kind of the only option for a fix without just replacing large swathes of the book. Points just requires a couple of pages in the back and PL numbers to be tweaked. Changing rules means multiple pages getting replaced. I'm not saying that rules tweaks would be bad or even not a better solution, it's just points is an easier change to implement and honestly I'd welcome higher points so I don't have to field so many friggin models to hit higher point levels. It'd take away a bit of the sticker shock on collecting the army too which helps new players out.

**Kdash**

stratigo wrote:
Kdash wrote:

Out of genuine curiosity what lists have you been running, and what lists have you been going up against? Part of this challenge, for me, is thinking up ways to beat said "unbeatable" lists.

It is really poor form to lie.

When people say that the same lists already winning tournaments will KEEP winning tournaments, it doesn't take to much effort to go "Oh, you mean artillery and conscript spam with smite and celestine/G man support". The most competetive lists likely will not change, everyone is already meta building to beat guard and, guess what, they haven't managed it yet. Chaos comes closest, and they haven't dethroned the king of lists yet. Have some initiative.

Huh? I am actually genuinely curious as to the lists and enjoy/spend far too much time theory crafting and testing. A lot of tournament winning lists for guard that I’ve seen haven’t been pure guard/wouldn’t work/won’t fit points wise into the new codex guard without some changes. All I can go off is the odd list that gets published every now and then – and even then, you don’t always get to see the lists they went up against.
The latest tournament results I can find were from the Rise of the Primarch GT the other week and the Iron Halo event. Both were over 6 games each. Chaos won the GT and Alpha Legion won the Iron Halo. Only 1 Guard list were listed as finishing in the top 10 in both events – 9th and 10th respectively. Now – I don’t have access to the Space Marine lists that placed well, so I can’t tell if they were “soup” or not – but, even if they are soup it’s hardly resulting in them dominating the events.

in fact, using https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/09/13/top-itc-tournament-lists-august-2017/ as a check point for winning lists in August (Sept one isn’t there yet) you can see that only 3 winning lists contained guard units, and I think only 1 one them had conscripts in, the other 2 being either Scions or Elysian’s in with Marines or as a Genestealer mash-up. But, from quickly checking the results via frontlinegaming and bestcoastpairings forall the major and GT events in September, Guard lists only won 1 of the events. I’ve not checked all the other events yet – but over 5-6 game events Guard aren’t stomping every large tournament right now apparently.

The reason I’m asking for “standard/general” players to share their lists and experience here, isn’t to berate them, steal their ideas etc etc, but it’s simply to attempt to learn from their lists and experiences to see whether I, personally, would have done anything different or whether, simply because of the lists, the outcome was always going to be the same.

The more information we get, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we understand. The more we understand, the more we’re able to evolve.

**the_scotsman**

Kdash wrote:
stratigo wrote:
Kdash wrote:

Out of genuine curiosity what lists have you been running, and what lists have you been going up against? Part of this challenge, for me, is thinking up ways to beat said "unbeatable" lists.

It is really poor form to lie.

When people say that the same lists already winning tournaments will KEEP winning tournaments, it doesn't take to much effort to go "Oh, you mean artillery and conscript spam with smite and celestine/G man support". The most competetive lists likely will not change, everyone is already meta building to beat guard and, guess what, they haven't managed it yet. Chaos comes closest, and they haven't dethroned the king of lists yet. Have some initiative.

Huh? I am actually genuinely curious as to the lists and enjoy/spend far too much time theory crafting and testing. A lot of tournament winning lists for guard that I’ve seen haven’t been pure guard/wouldn’t work/won’t fit points wise into the new codex guard without some changes. All I can go off is the odd list that gets published every now and then – and even then, you don’t always get to see the lists they went up against.
The latest tournament results I can find were from the Rise of the Primarch GT the other week and the Iron Halo event. Both were over 6 games each. Chaos won the GT and Alpha Legion won the Iron Halo. Only 1 Guard list were listed as finishing in the top 10 in both events – 9th and 10th respectively. Now – I don’t have access to the Space Marine lists that placed well, so I can’t tell if they were “soup” or not – but, even if they are soup it’s hardly resulting in them dominating the events.

in fact, using https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2017/09/13/top-itc-tournament-lists-august-2017/ as a check point for winning lists in August (Sept one isn’t there yet) you can see that only 3 winning lists contained guard units, and I think only 1 one them had conscripts in, the other 2 being either Scions or Elysian’s in with Marines or as a Genestealer mash-up. But, from quickly checking the results via frontlinegaming and bestcoastpairings forall the major and GT events in September, Guard lists only won 1 of the events. I’ve not checked all the other events yet – but over 5-6 game events Guard aren’t stomping every large tournament right now apparently.

The reason I’m asking for “standard/general” players to share their lists and experience here, isn’t to berate them, steal their ideas etc etc, but it’s simply to attempt to learn from their lists and experiences to see whether I, personally, would have done anything different or whether, simply because of the lists, the outcome was always going to be the same.

The more information we get, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we understand. The more we understand, the more we’re able to evolve.

Shhhh, don't employ logic in this thread!

Pre-codex, the most competitive Guard army we had around was basically

150-200 conscripts
2 commissars
2 company commanders
4 units of scions, split between 2 plasma scion squads and 4 plasma command squads
2 Scion Primes
Several forgeworld "Saber" turrets - the round platformed ones that are basically discount TL heavy weapons.

That was a list that did really really well at local tournaments and as players go, he's about as veteran as you can get at using big blobs of infantry, so in this meta he's an absolute terror to play against, just wins on micro-placement and achieving objectives rather than killing you. The only thing I've personally seen beat him at the area club was a 2 stormraven Grey Knights list, which was able to use the heavy dakka platforms of the planes combined with their movement blocking bases to keep objectives from getting swarmed enough to thin out the horde/get super durable units in combat with the conscripts. End of the day, he racked up about half the guard army in casualties and won pretty handily on points.

Post codex, we have yet to see what's top dog. We've got a variety of different playstyles of guard represented, but we're pretty casual as an overall group.

**Kdash**

the_scotsman wrote:

Shhhh, don't employ logic in this thread!

Pre-codex, the most competitive Guard army we had around was basically

150-200 conscripts
2 commissars
2 company commanders
4 units of scions, split between 2 plasma scion squads and 4 plasma command squads
2 Scion Primes
Several forgeworld "Saber" turrets - the round platformed ones that are basically discount TL heavy weapons.

That was a list that did really really well at local tournaments and as players go, he's about as veteran as you can get at using big blobs of infantry, so in this meta he's an absolute terror to play against, just wins on micro-placement and achieving objectives rather than killing you. The only thing I've personally seen beat him at the area club was a 2 stormraven Grey Knights list, which was able to use the heavy dakka platforms of the planes combined with their movement blocking bases to keep objectives from getting swarmed enough to thin out the horde/get super durable units in combat with the conscripts. End of the day, he racked up about half the guard army in casualties and won pretty handily on points.

Post codex, we have yet to see what's top dog. We've got a variety of different playstyles of guard represented, but we're pretty casual as an overall group.

Haha, thanks!

200 conscripts and playing for the mission rather than tabling is a nasty combination!
I certainly think things like hurricane bolters and twin assault cannons would be practically required to face that!

It’ll certainly be interesting to see the “battle of the guard styles” taking place in your area! You’ll have to let us know how it goes!

**the_scotsman**

Kdash wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Shhhh, don't employ logic in this thread!

Pre-codex, the most competitive Guard army we had around was basically

150-200 conscripts
2 commissars
2 company commanders
4 units of scions, split between 2 plasma scion squads and 4 plasma command squads
2 Scion Primes
Several forgeworld "Saber" turrets - the round platformed ones that are basically discount TL heavy weapons.

That was a list that did really really well at local tournaments and as players go, he's about as veteran as you can get at using big blobs of infantry, so in this meta he's an absolute terror to play against, just wins on micro-placement and achieving objectives rather than killing you. The only thing I've personally seen beat him at the area club was a 2 stormraven Grey Knights list, which was able to use the heavy dakka platforms of the planes combined with their movement blocking bases to keep objectives from getting swarmed enough to thin out the horde/get super durable units in combat with the conscripts. End of the day, he racked up about half the guard army in casualties and won pretty handily on points.

Post codex, we have yet to see what's top dog. We've got a variety of different playstyles of guard represented, but we're pretty casual as an overall group.

Haha, thanks!

200 conscripts and playing for the mission rather than tabling is a nasty combination!
I certainly think things like hurricane bolters and twin assault cannons would be practically required to face that!

It’ll certainly be interesting to see the “battle of the guard styles” taking place in your area! You’ll have to let us know how it goes!

So far, we've seen:

-same conscript spam guy trying out other setups with Mordian doctrines (won, not close)
-Vostroyan infantry squad based TAC list with LR tanks and melta hellhound variant (won, very close)
-Cadian super-buffed Baneblade list with the Baneblade and support elements being almost 1000 points of a 2k list (lost, but close)
-Catachans with admech allied contingent (lost, catachans apparently didn't do great against Daemons)
-Tallarn tanks with Steel Legion Infantry (lost, tanks couldn't hold onto objectives)

**Unit1126PLL**

I am sad to hear that local meta doesn't have a super-heavy tank /company/.

Call me if you need some real armour

**the_scotsman**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I am sad to hear that local meta doesn't have a super-heavy tank /company/.

Call me if you need some real armour

Ha, we do have a guy that comes and plays occasionally that collects all the giant stuff from Forgeworld. So while he does have enough baneblades for a company (one of which is an excellent Fortress of Arrogance conversion) he usually uses either the giant marine plane or a warhound titan. Haven't gotten to play them in 8th, but in 7th we had some great games with a huge Wych Cult dark eldar army+Harlequins against 2 titans, swarming around them like a huge horde of angry bees.

**Martel732**

Agreed. One point increases on models that get spammed are enormous overall.

**Niiru**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
-snip-

That said, I don't feel like all units being viable choices should be considered an OP codex. That's literally the point of a balanced codex, I should be able to look at the book and say "ah, ok, that's what this unit is for. I don't need it for this list but I can totally see where I would want it."
-snip-

I totally agree with this. I have no problem with every unit being viable - all codex releases should be like this. I only bring up the history of an army where they only had one or two good units vs the rest being mediocre, when people say that IG aren't op now because Eldar used to have wraithknights once upon a time. Like that's even relevant. I hope all codices in 8th end up with as wide a variety of good choices as the IG codex is. In that respect, GW have done a good job. Also happy with them giving a lot of the flavour back to the IG, I really *really* hope they do the same with Eldar and Orks as they have lost a LOT of their flavour this edition. Orks are one of the blandest armies out there right now... and they're the f-ing ORKS.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
The other problem isn't that every unit is viable, it's that many things are so damn cheap it's just overwhelming, especially since regiment traits were added for free and majorly change units' behaviors. It's like someone wrote the points with 7th in mind, to an almost worrying degree. I'm taking the same lists I had in 7th, down to the exact wargear and squad layouts, and yet I'm just hitting far harder than I ever did before.

I totally agree with you again, and this is where a bulk of the (potential) problems comes from for me (and I assume the others commenting on this thread). From all accounts, a lot of old IG players are finding they can field the same lists as before, and end up at about the same points cost (or less, in some cases), but with their models being significantly more powerful.
If I recreate my old lists though, I end up at about 200-300 points more expensive (in one case it was closer to 500 points more), but other than a couple vehicles being marginally harder to kill, everything else was noticeably *less* powerful. The loss of various rules had either made units more fragile or less able to put out damage. And yet were more expensive. It baffles me how IG managed to get tougher and cheaper.

I'm willing to admit there may be an underlying reason for this that balances it all, and we are just not seeing it yet. I just think it's unlikely.

**brother_b**

N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

**the_scotsman**

brother_b wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

This is entirely untrue and when people actually learn to do it I feel close combat wont be nearly as much of a problem as it is now.

Every unit gets to 3" consolidate after it attacks. Every time your units fight, if there are enemy models left, try to use the 3" to encircle a model or two. it doesn't have to be perfect, you just have to move your models such that there isn't a gap large enough between your bases to move the model through. Also remember for tanks that only infantry can move through most terrain.

Yes, there are instances where it isn't possible, and there are enemies with fly that can simply leave. but it isn't particularly hard to use that Consolidate to nab a model or two, and if you know they're limited to a single morale casualty, if you grab two guys, the unit has no way to leave combat.

The number of units that can get through a bubblewrapping unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in two turns is much higher than the number that can get through a unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in one turn.

**Niiru**

brother_b wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

Well actually there is a way to keep units in combat... though the only unit I can think of who has that ability are dark eldar wyches. I (vaguely) recall they have a rule which prevents their opponent being able to fall back... think it even means they can assault a tank and keep it locked in combat for as long as they survive... might even work against units with <fly>, though they can't assault actual flyers so it'd be more for jump pack troops... I'm not at home to check all this, but I think its right anyway.

I also thought that you could stop a unit from falling back by surrounding them in combat? Hard to do against a conscript blob though. Does falling back have to actually be backwards? Or can you fall back in any direction? Sounds stupid but I originally assumed it was a backwards move, but I don't actually recall it specifying.

**Azuza001**

What do you guys think of a roll-off if your opponent trys to leave close combat? If your model does not have the fly keyword and you wish to leave close combat your opponent may attempt to lock you in. Each player rolls a d6, if you roll higher than your opponent then you may move out of close combat. Combat specialists can add +1 to their rolls (so assault marines or beserkers are better at keeping their opponents in cc than a base tactical or chaos marine).

I think they need to add little touches like this to really help Balance the flexibility of walking out of cc with the ability to keep them in.

Or even a stratagem, 1 CP, if your opponent trys to leave cc you can deny that enemy squad the ability to leave.

That would make a huge difference to guard lines without even modifying guard.

**the_scotsman**

Niiru wrote:
brother_b wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

Well actually there is a way to keep units in combat... though the only unit I can think of who has that ability are dark eldar wyches. I (vaguely) recall they have a rule which prevents their opponent being able to fall back... think it even means they can assault a tank and keep it locked in combat for as long as they survive... might even work against units with <fly>, though they can't assault actual flyers so it'd be more for jump pack troops... I'm not at home to check all this, but I think its right anyway.

I also thought that you could stop a unit from falling back by surrounding them in combat? Hard to do against a conscript blob though. Does falling back have to actually be backwards? Or can you fall back in any direction? Sounds stupid but I originally assumed it was a backwards move, but I don't actually recall it specifying.

no, falling back doesn't have to be backwards. It has to be a legal move that you end your move with every model at least 1" away from any enemy models.

This means:

-EVERY model in the falling back unit must be able to make a legal move away
-They cannot move through enemy models, impassable terrain, or in the case of certain unit types, through ruins.
-Since fall back is not a move made in the movement phase, the restriction on "moving within 1" of enemy models" is waived - so you must physically block them off with the BASES of your models. Still, this is not particularly hard to do if you can get a couple models around an enemy model

Keep in mind that if you encircle in your consolidate move, your opponent has one opportunity to free: their morale phase casualties. If you encircle just one conscript, for instance, don't be surprised if there's a "Blam" in your near future. For conscripts, grab two. This is not particularly hard with Conscripts spread out in "bubble wrap" formation around vehicles.

Also keep in mind that units with Fly can always move over enemy models. This isn't all bad for you - your units with fly can still move over enemy units during your consolidate move, making it even easier to circle around a few models.

**Trickstick**

the_scotsman wrote:
-They cannot move through enemy models

Do you think that sponsons count? Getting a model behind a sponson would be pretty easy. They are not part of the footprint of the model really, and we would not consider things like gun barrels as stopping movement. Is this covered somewhere that I have forgotten about?

**Niiru**

the_scotsman wrote:
Niiru wrote:
brother_b wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

Well actually there is a way to keep units in combat... though the only unit I can think of who has that ability are dark eldar wyches. I (vaguely) recall they have a rule which prevents their opponent being able to fall back... think it even means they can assault a tank and keep it locked in combat for as long as they survive... might even work against units with <fly>, though they can't assault actual flyers so it'd be more for jump pack troops... I'm not at home to check all this, but I think its right anyway.

I also thought that you could stop a unit from falling back by surrounding them in combat? Hard to do against a conscript blob though. Does falling back have to actually be backwards? Or can you fall back in any direction? Sounds stupid but I originally assumed it was a backwards move, but I don't actually recall it specifying.

no, falling back doesn't have to be backwards. It has to be a legal move that you end your move with every model at least 1" away from any enemy models.

This means:

-EVERY model in the falling back unit must be able to make a legal move away
-They cannot move through enemy models, impassable terrain, or in the case of certain unit types, through ruins.
-Since fall back is not a move made in the movement phase, the restriction on "moving within 1" of enemy models" is waived - so you must physically block them off with the BASES of your models. Still, this is not particularly hard to do if you can get a couple models around an enemy model

Keep in mind that if you encircle in your consolidate move, your opponent has one opportunity to free: their morale phase casualties. If you encircle just one conscript, for instance, don't be surprised if there's a "Blam" in your near future. For conscripts, grab two. This is not particularly hard with Conscripts spread out in "bubble wrap" formation around vehicles.

Also keep in mind that units with Fly can always move over enemy models. This isn't all bad for you - your units with fly can still move over enemy units during your consolidate move, making it even easier to circle around a few models.

Ok then, so yeh Wyches can trap people in combat even without the surrounding them part (i believe), which might make them handy, though unfortunately they still suffer from the standard Eldar trait of being overpriced and weak.

Also Harlequins can surround units easily too, as they can essentially fly over them when charging using their flip belts.

I guess stormboyz would be Orks only option for this. Dunno what necrons can do. Tau probably shouldn't ever be attempting it anyway.

**MrMoustaffa**

just surround a model in the enemy squad and they cant fall back

This works against IG how exactly? If I can tell you have a brain in close combat Im going to bunch up b2b and pull casualties from the edges going in, preventing any single model surround. Unless you can physically move my models around theres nothing you can do to "separate" a member of the squad and hold them in. I may love a sarge or plasma but I will gladly make that trade over just sitting in combat and dying. Thats ignoring the orders Valhallans and Vostroyans have that can allow firing in combat, shenanigans like "Fire on my position" and the Officer of the Fleet airstrike, and just letting you play with my guardsmen while I pull back the tanks. We have an order that allows a Russ to move up to 32" in a single turn if youre lucky. Unless you can surround the entire IG army, pinning them down now will be difficult. People dont realize how insanely fast IG are right now with orders, I guess because many casual guard players just gunline? I consider Move!Move! and Full Throttle to be two of the best orders in the codex.

Surrounding entire squads is an almost laughable notion as well. I will outnumber you 3 to 1, and can practically have my guys hold hands by having units rank up (heck mordians alone will be doing this because thats how their buffs work) It will be difficult to consolidate and completely cut off infantry units.

Again, this is guard. If he doesnt outnumber you at least 2:1 and youre not ork/nids/ cultists something has gone horribly wrong

**Dionysodorus**

the_scotsman wrote:

This is entirely untrue and when people actually learn to do it I feel close combat wont be nearly as much of a problem as it is now.

Every unit gets to 3" consolidate after it attacks. Every time your units fight, if there are enemy models left, try to use the 3" to encircle a model or two. it doesn't have to be perfect, you just have to move your models such that there isn't a gap large enough between your bases to move the model through. Also remember for tanks that only infantry can move through most terrain.

Yes, there are instances where it isn't possible, and there are enemies with fly that can simply leave. but it isn't particularly hard to use that Consolidate to nab a model or two, and if you know they're limited to a single morale casualty, if you grab two guys, the unit has no way to leave combat.

The number of units that can get through a bubblewrapping unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in two turns is much higher than the number that can get through a unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in one turn.

I don't see how this can be possible in almost any situation where you've charged something like a Guard squad. Your own CC attacks are going to let your opponent remove the models that you've set up to surround with your charge and pile-in.

**Vaktathi**

So, ive been out of the game a few months due to life, haven't had a chance to catch up on the most recent meta developments but did finally get my hands on the book.

I do have a question however, it looks like Chimeras are unchanged from the index list and still appear to be hot garbage, am I correct in that assessment?

Also looks like there is no carapace option for Vets, meaning carapace infantry are limited to Stormtroopers and DKoK Grenadiers, is that correct?

Despite the awesome power of this book, it looks like most of the stuff I actually want to run is not particularly spectacular

The Russ buffs make them viable, but they seem like unnecessary patches when they could have just fixed the weapon and vehicle stats instead of slapping on a "double shots" rule that acknowledges but refuses to directly deal with the underlying issue, pretty typical GW game design...the indirect fire artillery units generally still seem to be the big powerhouses however.

Still trying to digest the rest of the book, but it looks like theres some stuff that takes zero brain to use (manticore firing without penalty with no LoS and more firepower than most russ tanks for way less and only marignally less resiliency for a way lower cost) and the other half continues to mostly look mediocre to bad.

Edit: Wow, just realized the Vanquisher still appears to be awful. A stationary Vanq getting two shots and sporting a lascannon is still doing about half the wounds to most T6-8 3+sv tanks that a Trilas Predator is.

Alas...I own no conscripts to take advantage of...

**Blacksails**

Same, I miss mechanized grenadiers. Can't stand Tauroxes. I'll probably make do with mounted vets and/or infantry squads in autocannon chimeras.

**Vaktathi**

Blacksails wrote:
Same, I miss mechanized grenadiers. Can't stand Tauroxes. I'll probably make do with mounted vets and/or infantry squads in autocannon chimeras.

Yeah, I always really liked the mechgren concept, I will probably try and generally play more Russ armored company armies if thats the case methinks, Ill have to find time to play around with it and actually get in a game here

**Azuza001**

I ran a game recently with my guard, I asked my opponent if I could run a crazy guard list. He said sure, it was just 50 power level, but all I took were he'll hounds, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, vets with flamers, command squad with flamers / heavy flamer, and heavy weapon teams with mortars. He played space marines.

After we started deploying and he realized what I had done he started laughing, and quote said "when you said crazy guard list that's not what I expected."

It was a blast of a game. My chimeras did really well, lasted most the game because he'll hounds seemed more of a threat, then I just when straight for his line and charged in. When my vets jumped out of the chimera and everything just torched a scout squad I said "More fire! Firraaa"

I ended up losing, turns out fire doesn't work too well vs multiple dreadnoughts, but it was still a blast.

Point is chimeras are not total garbage, you can help their survival and usefulness just by having more important targets on the table. They just are not what they were. I remember when they had the ability to move through water / rivers as if they were not there. . .unique but not something that came up.

**Niiru**

Azuza001 wrote:
I ran a game recently with my guard, I asked my opponent if I could run a crazy guard list. He said sure, it was just 50 power level, but all I took were he'll hounds, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, vets with flamers, command squad with flamers / heavy flamer, and heavy weapon teams with mortars. He played space marines.

After we started deploying and he realized what I had done he started laughing, and quote said "when you said crazy guard list that's not what I expected."

It was a blast of a game. My chimeras did really well, lasted most the game because he'll hounds seemed more of a threat, then I just when straight for his line and charged in. When my vets jumped out of the chimera and everything just torched a scout squad I said "More fire! Firraaa"

I ended up losing, turns out fire doesn't work too well vs multiple dreadnoughts, but it was still a blast.

Point is chimeras are not total garbage, you can help their survival and usefulness just by having more important targets on the table. They just are not what they were. I remember when they had the ability to move through water / rivers as if they were not there. . .unique but not something that came up.

Are Chimeras considered bad? I'm at work so I can't double-check the stats, but from memory it seems like for the same points as an Ork Trukk, you get... something much better than an Ork Trukk. And that can transport more useful units, so it's points are actually better spent.

Actually I just remembered I could check the codex where I am now, and for the same points you get +1 toughness, +1 armour save (so much more survivable), more weapons, same move distance, same transport capacity (but better things to transport).... Chimeras are a bargain.

They are probably only considered bad, because everything else in the IG codex is far too good.

**Azuza001**

Niiru wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
I ran a game recently with my guard, I asked my opponent if I could run a crazy guard list. He said sure, it was just 50 power level, but all I took were he'll hounds, chimeras with dual heavy flamers, vets with flamers, command squad with flamers / heavy flamer, and heavy weapon teams with mortars. He played space marines.

After we started deploying and he realized what I had done he started laughing, and quote said "when you said crazy guard list that's not what I expected."

It was a blast of a game. My chimeras did really well, lasted most the game because he'll hounds seemed more of a threat, then I just when straight for his line and charged in. When my vets jumped out of the chimera and everything just torched a scout squad I said "More fire! Firraaa"

I ended up losing, turns out fire doesn't work too well vs multiple dreadnoughts, but it was still a blast.

Point is chimeras are not total garbage, you can help their survival and usefulness just by having more important targets on the table. They just are not what they were. I remember when they had the ability to move through water / rivers as if they were not there. . .unique but not something that came up.

Are Chimeras considered bad? I'm at work so I can't double-check the stats, but from memory it seems like for the same points as an Ork Trukk, you get... something much better than an Ork Trukk. And that can transport more useful units, so it's points are actually better spent.

Actually I just remembered I could check the codex where I am now, and for the same points you get +1 toughness, +1 armour save (so much more survivable), more weapons, same move distance, same transport capacity (but better things to transport).... Chimeras are a bargain.

They are probably only considered bad, because everything else in the IG codex is far too good.

Yeah, most guard players I have talked to have felt they are bad, but I love em. I have 5 of them, and always use at least 3. But then again I play aggressive cadian guard, so most of my guys don't stay still and I am always moving up.

**Gunzhard**

Keeping in mind that the goal of this edition was to make everything viable ("even pyrovores!"). They seem to have succeeded in that goal with this book, that's not a bad thing or problem on its own; but whether it works in the overall meta, or if it's really just 'broken' only time will tell.

Chimeras are plenty good, but Taurox is better for spammy WAAC lists. The FW versions have a lot of dakka. The bigger argument is if you're better covering the table with foot troops and skipping transports altogether.

**brother_b**

the_scotsman wrote:
brother_b wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
Wouldn't 20 Alpha Legion Berzerkers with Forward Operatives do a number on an AM gunline? Granted, they only have ~50% chance of going first, but when they do? They will munch through any screens and hit the tanks behind, with double Pile ins and then consolidate.

Backed up by Warp Time to send in something more in the same turn, like that stratagem that allow you to pick up a unit and place it 9" from the enemy and charge, plus las cannon Helbrutes.

Interesting but one fundamental problem with melee units is there is no way to keep a unit in close combat. Maybe if they could take out the bubblewrap and get to the gunline with their consolidation move.

This is entirely untrue and when people actually learn to do it I feel close combat wont be nearly as much of a problem as it is now.

Every unit gets to 3" consolidate after it attacks. Every time your units fight, if there are enemy models left, try to use the 3" to encircle a model or two. it doesn't have to be perfect, you just have to move your models such that there isn't a gap large enough between your bases to move the model through. Also remember for tanks that only infantry can move through most terrain.

Yes, there are instances where it isn't possible, and there are enemies with fly that can simply leave. but it isn't particularly hard to use that Consolidate to nab a model or two, and if you know they're limited to a single morale casualty, if you grab two guys, the unit has no way to leave combat.

The number of units that can get through a bubblewrapping unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in two turns is much higher than the number that can get through a unit of conscripts and get to the tanks in one turn.

Looks good, I haven't been able to do that. Honestly, I haven't tried to fully encircle because my melee units have been rather small. Maybe 10 at the most. Will look to try this out, 3" move doesn't seem like I can get fully around the squad though.