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I would like to think that the Tyranids would respond with either vast numbers or they would unleash something new that the Imperium has never yet seen before (or only seen in the darkest of nightmares of a Space Hulk before death).

The Swarm Lord is only new to the battlefields, its a reaction to the Tyranids getting stronger and stronger opposition and also fighting deeper into the Galaxy. So there is ample resource within the Hive Fleets for new evolutions and other ancient threats.

Personally I'd like to think that the response is to reabsorb the Catachan Devils* back into the Swarm and unleash a newly evolved strain of them back into the Primarchs.
However the Swarm could very well unleash another few beasts and critters that we've never yet seen.

The SwarmLord clearly shows that the Hive Mind likes character mode... er... takes the individual strength and threat as serious as it takes the simple use of wave after wave of swarms. Why waste so much biomass on a single powerful enemy when you can breed a single powerhouse to take out that single threat and save all those swarming masses for other more viable targets.


*One of the old tyranid codex hints that its thought the devils are a very early exploratory strain of tyranids gone feral having been absent from the Hive Mind for so long

 Overread wrote:

The SwarmLord clearly shows that the Hive Mind likes character mode... er... takes the individual strength and threat as serious as it takes the simple use of wave after wave of swarms. Why waste so much biomass on a single powerful enemy when you can breed a single powerhouse to take out that single threat and save all those swarming masses for other more viable targets.

It seems like more powerful organisms take exponentially more biomass to form regardless of their actual mass. Otherwise Hive Fleet Gorgon wouldn't have consisted of smaller creatures and every Tyranid force would just have that bio-titan which took down the Titan Legion on Gryphonne IV. Or a Swarmlord rather than reserving it for the hardest conflicts.

Tyranid powers and limitations are incredibly hard to pin down.

Tyranids are indeed strange.
If you look back at old Tyranids they were holding weapons - now they are more half fused to them. That along with the Swarm Lord suggests to me that whilst they are born and bred for war and rendered down after it - there is something else going on. Some individuality; some element that restricts what the hive fleets can produce.

Otherwise yes the Tryanids if they were purely bio-weapons would only need to breed a very limited number of Tyranids to achieve their end goals.


Indeed you could even say that as the Hive Fleets have invaded more and more they've become far more diverse as a whole. The carnifex was once the powerhouse of the army, with multiple weapon choices. Now its a kind of smaller powerhouse with specialist large units taking over in specific spots.
This raises the question of how much of this is pure Tyranid and how much is the result of genetic mixing, and other influences, as they invade the Galaxy.


there's also the angle that the Emperor acts like a huge beacon to them and some have even argued that he might even have more subtle influences over them

Could be the more they invade the more they change; the more they become like others.




And of course some of it is fluff bending over backwards to give us new fancy models.

The Tyranid weapons are different organisms that grow fused with the host. This is because is more easy to have a genetic "blueprint" for a creature, and then different blueprints for their weapons, than having a totally different blueprint for every combination of a creature and their weapons.

 Galas wrote:
The Tyranid weapons are different organisms that grow fused with the host. This is because is more easy to have a genetic "blueprint" for a creature, and then different blueprints for their weapons, than having a totally different blueprint for every combination of a creature and their weapons.

Look at some of the early generation Tyranids and you can clearly see that most hold their weapons as opposed to being born with them fused to their bodies. They've steadily become more and more physically fused with their weapons over time.

 Overread wrote:

 Galas wrote:
The Tyranid weapons are different organisms that grow fused with the host. This is because is more easy to have a genetic "blueprint" for a creature, and then different blueprints for their weapons, than having a totally different blueprint for every combination of a creature and their weapons.

Look at some of the early generation Tyranids and you can clearly see that most hold their weapons as opposed to being born with them fused to their bodies. They've steadily become more and more physically fused with their weapons over time.

Oh yeah, the first generation of Tyranids was very different, I was talking about the actual tyranid fluff and models.

Yep though one fluff barrier Nids have had for ages is that nearly all the fluff is basically Imperial Reports on Tyranids. This leaves a huge scope for change because Tyranids are basically unknown and without any clear motivations.

I also note that Tyranids still have the whole hands-holding things even if they are getting more and more fused. If you look at a lot of claws/talons you can see the kind of hand-shape almost holding a sword or grasping around the base of a long finger that's become like a sword.

 Overread wrote:
Yep though one fluff barrier Nids have had for ages is that nearly all the fluff is basically Imperial Reports on Tyranids. This leaves a huge scope for change because Tyranids are basically unknown and without any clear motivations.

I also note that Tyranids still have the whole hands-holding things even if they are getting more and more fused. If you look at a lot of claws/talons you can see the kind of hand-shape almost holding a sword or grasping around the base of a long finger that's become like a sword.

Yeah, but thats because, if you look closely, those weapons, swords and many guns like the Tyranid Warriors ones, have actually eyes, because they are different organisms that live in symbiosis with the Tyranids that "carry" them. They are fused at "birth", but they are different organisms. Because they follow the "blueprint" structure of separating the weapons-creatures from the bearer-creature.

 Exergy wrote:
As intelligent and experienced as the swarmlord may be, nothing in the hiveminds experience has ever come across something as powerful as a primarch in that size category. They have experienced lots of humans, lots of space marines. Seeing a primarch, the intelligent thing to do would be extrapolate their strength, speed, durability as a variation of regular humans or space marines. While that is the intelligent thing to do, and while infinite experience leads you to that conclusion, that conclusion is wrong.

All that experience is actually hurting the swarmlord, because all that experience leads it to believe the a primarch is a man, perhaps a superhuman man, but still a man. Primarchs are gods.

tyranids are extra galactic. What they have encountered is unknown.

Tyranids appear to be reactive, and so far as we've seen actually incapable of predicting new threats.

Yes, there'll always be some tricks, tactics and strategies they encountered before arriving here. But it very much appears they can only evolve retrospectively, or at the very least focus any given mutation.

Consider the background, when they adapt to Pulse Weapons. When the Tau gave them a pasting, successive waves demonstrated ever greater resilience and eventually effective immunity to Pulse rounds.

To me that is good evidence they can't predict and size up a foe before they've engaged, otherwise, why waste the biomass if they had something that already works?

Now, whether the adaptation was a result of random mutation amongst their hordes, or a deliberate 'let's try X, then Y, then Z until it works', who knows? It could be a bit of both.

It seems perfectly possible that the Hive Mind works in a similar way to Techpriests. Observe, adapt, overcome, able to focus on even its smallest members should aberrant results or behaviour occur, and then work with that.

Another aspect is that as the Swarm and Hive Mind is vast it might just be that it prefers to continually trial what its got. Smashing what its currently evolved against enemies and only evolving strains when its really needed.

Evolution of new strains clearly takes some effort or some dedication/focus.


It could also just be a super fast survival of the fittest. Ergo there are new evolutions all the time; but they only become new "units" when they survive enough battles to move from a niche isolated specialist and into a mainstay of the Hive Fleet.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyranids appear to be reactive, and so far as we've seen actually incapable of predicting new threats.

Yes, there'll always be some tricks, tactics and strategies they encountered before arriving here. But it very much appears they can only evolve retrospectively, or at the very least focus any given mutation.

Consider the background, when they adapt to Pulse Weapons. When the Tau gave them a pasting, successive waves demonstrated ever greater resilience and eventually effective immunity to Pulse rounds.

To me that is good evidence they can't predict and size up a foe before they've engaged, otherwise, why waste the biomass if they had something that already works?

Now, whether the adaptation was a result of random mutation amongst their hordes, or a deliberate 'let's try X, then Y, then Z until it works', who knows? It could be a bit of both.

It seems perfectly possible that the Hive Mind works in a similar way to Techpriests. Observe, adapt, overcome, able to focus on even its smallest members should aberrant results or behaviour occur, and then work with that.

To me, Abathur (This slug) is how I imagine the Hive Mind directing the evolution of the Tyranids fleets



"Look at flesh. See only potential. Strands, sequences, twisting, separating, joining. See how it could be better. Never perfect, Perfection goal that changes. Never stop moving. Can chase, cannot catch"

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyranids appear to be reactive, and so far as we've seen actually incapable of predicting new threats.

Yes, there'll always be some tricks, tactics and strategies they encountered before arriving here. But it very much appears they can only evolve retrospectively, or at the very least focus any given mutation.

Consider the background, when they adapt to Pulse Weapons. When the Tau gave them a pasting, successive waves demonstrated ever greater resilience and eventually effective immunity to Pulse rounds.

To me that is good evidence they can't predict and size up a foe before they've engaged, otherwise, why waste the biomass if they had something that already works?

Now, whether the adaptation was a result of random mutation amongst their hordes, or a deliberate 'let's try X, then Y, then Z until it works', who knows? It could be a bit of both.

It seems perfectly possible that the Hive Mind works in a similar way to Techpriests. Observe, adapt, overcome, able to focus on even its smallest members should aberrant results or behaviour occur, and then work with that.

I don't think it's an inability to preemptively adapt or predict. It's a lack of need.

The Nids don't see anything in the galaxy as an actual threat. A loss on a planet is inconsequential. The nids are not even all here yet, and the last major hive fleet to arrive was capable of traveling across the galactic disk without entering it and then nearly split the galaxy in two with simultaneous attacks.

Each major hive fleet to arrive has been exponentially larger then the last. If there really is another hive fleet coming that is bigger than leviathan and it shows up as a single large hammer blow that plows strait across the galaxy there is nothing any race or faction in the galaxy can do to even slow it down.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyranids appear to be reactive, and so far as we've seen actually incapable of predicting new threats.

Yes, there'll always be some tricks, tactics and strategies they encountered before arriving here. But it very much appears they can only evolve retrospectively, or at the very least focus any given mutation.

Consider the background, when they adapt to Pulse Weapons. When the Tau gave them a pasting, successive waves demonstrated ever greater resilience and eventually effective immunity to Pulse rounds.

To me that is good evidence they can't predict and size up a foe before they've engaged, otherwise, why waste the biomass if they had something that already works?

Now, whether the adaptation was a result of random mutation amongst their hordes, or a deliberate 'let's try X, then Y, then Z until it works', who knows? It could be a bit of both.

It seems perfectly possible that the Hive Mind works in a similar way to Techpriests. Observe, adapt, overcome, able to focus on even its smallest members should aberrant results or behaviour occur, and then work with that.

I don't think it's an inability to preemptively adapt or predict. It's a lack of need.

The Nids don't see anything in the galaxy as an actual threat. A loss on a planet is inconsequential. The nids are not even all here yet, and the last major hive fleet to arrive was capable of traveling across the galactic disk without entering it and then nearly split the galaxy in two with simultaneous attacks.

Each major hive fleet to arrive has been exponentially larger then the last. If there really is another hive fleet coming that is bigger than leviathan and it shows up as a single large hammer blow that plows strait across the galaxy there is nothing any race or faction in the galaxy can do to even slow it down.

Until Morty shows up and hands out Mortal Wounds like Oprah haha.

"You get a Mortal Wound, and you get a Mortal Wound, and you get a few dozen!"

 Frazzled wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
As intelligent and experienced as the swarmlord may be, nothing in the hiveminds experience has ever come across something as powerful as a primarch in that size category. They have experienced lots of humans, lots of space marines. Seeing a primarch, the intelligent thing to do would be extrapolate their strength, speed, durability as a variation of regular humans or space marines. While that is the intelligent thing to do, and while infinite experience leads you to that conclusion, that conclusion is wrong.

All that experience is actually hurting the swarmlord, because all that experience leads it to believe the a primarch is a man, perhaps a superhuman man, but still a man. Primarchs are gods.

tyranids are extra galactic. What they have encountered is unknown.

They could have exprienced all sorts of things, but they didnt exprience humans. When they did start seeing humans, all of them fit within a real of parameters for strength, endurance, accuracy, skill, etc. After combating millions of them that would only strengthen their confidence in their knowledge of humans. But although a primarch looks human, their abilities do not fit on the human scale, they far exceed it.

All the experience tyranids have built up will convince them that a primarch cannot do something, that X action or troop will be more than sufficient to deal with it. But because primarchs fall on another scale, it never will be the correct action or enough force.

Primarch are blatantly not human. Look the model of Guilliman, compare it to a guardsman or even to a Space Marine and the size difference is insane. The Tyranids would probably equate a Primarch to a Daemon Prince as that is the closest thing in size IIRC.

Tyran wrote:
Primarch are blatantly not human. Look the model of Guilliman, compare it to a guardsman or even to a Space Marine and the size difference is insane. The Tyranids would probably equate a Primarch to a Daemon Prince as that is the closest thing in size IIRC.

And yet Alpharius and Omegon routinely pass for normal humans.

The scale of the new models is dumb and makes no sense, is not supported by fluff. GW just started making huge models, because bigger models sell for more $$.

 Exergy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Primarch are blatantly not human. Look the model of Guilliman, compare it to a guardsman or even to a Space Marine and the size difference is insane. The Tyranids would probably equate a Primarch to a Daemon Prince as that is the closest thing in size IIRC.

And yet Alpharius and Omegon routinely pass for normal humans.

The scale of the new models is dumb and makes no sense, is not supported by fluff. GW just started making huge models, because bigger models sell for more $$.

Alpharius and Omegon are small enough to pass as large astartes, not normal humans.

 Exergy wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Primarch are blatantly not human. Look the model of Guilliman, compare it to a guardsman or even to a Space Marine and the size difference is insane. The Tyranids would probably equate a Primarch to a Daemon Prince as that is the closest thing in size IIRC.

And yet Alpharius and Omegon routinely pass for normal humans.

The scale of the new models is dumb and makes no sense, is not supported by fluff. GW just started making huge models, because bigger models sell for more $$.

Alpharious and Omegon were the absolute smallest of the primarchs by a large margin and were still bigger then all but the biggest of astartes. The other primarchs were MUCH bigger.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Tyranids appear to be reactive, and so far as we've seen actually incapable of predicting new threats.

Yes, there'll always be some tricks, tactics and strategies they encountered before arriving here. But it very much appears they can only evolve retrospectively, or at the very least focus any given mutation.

Consider the background, when they adapt to Pulse Weapons. When the Tau gave them a pasting, successive waves demonstrated ever greater resilience and eventually effective immunity to Pulse rounds.

To me that is good evidence they can't predict and size up a foe before they've engaged, otherwise, why waste the biomass if they had something that already works?

Now, whether the adaptation was a result of random mutation amongst their hordes, or a deliberate 'let's try X, then Y, then Z until it works', who knows? It could be a bit of both.

It seems perfectly possible that the Hive Mind works in a similar way to Techpriests. Observe, adapt, overcome, able to focus on even its smallest members should aberrant results or behaviour occur, and then work with that.

Good points.

 Exergy wrote:
As intelligent and experienced as the swarmlord may be, nothing in the hiveminds experience has ever come across something as powerful as a primarch in that size category. They have experienced lots of humans, lots of space marines. Seeing a primarch, the intelligent thing to do would be extrapolate their strength, speed, durability as a variation of regular humans or space marines. While that is the intelligent thing to do, and while infinite experience leads you to that conclusion, that conclusion is wrong.

All that experience is actually hurting the swarmlord, because all that experience leads it to believe the a primarch is a man, perhaps a superhuman man, but still a man. Primarchs are gods.

A god is only a god until he is killed by another being. And then he's a corpse.

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match. On the table it's sadly meh. How I long for the days of his Sabres making Invuln saves reroll if they were successful.

This is of course considering a major Hive Fleet Incursion vs the Indominus Crusade. I'd be a bit worried about any Custodes falling and being devoured, providing even greater Biological ammunition that can quickly be adapted and used against the Crusade. Second that for Primaris DNA/organs.

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

Because of the way Tyranid Lore is written I think Tyranid players, despite all the victories Tyranids have, tend to always feel a bit underpowered and abit like the big evil thing in a hero story.

Always beaten at the last punch; always not the underdog but the under appreciated and always a little faceless.

Swarmlord is the Face of tyranids currently; its the only real character of note that GW has allowed us to have and to keep. Most others are either small scale (Red Terror or Old One Eye) or were niche and for all their deadly aspiration were written out - eg the Parasite of Mortax.

So I think there is a big desire to have the Swarm Lord take something big down that will be writtne about as a huge victory for Tyranids. A big prize that's visible (as opposed to the countless worlds taken and consumed )

Right now the biggest achievement everyone remembers is that Tyranids ate Squats

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

I disagree. In size he could be considered to be. In skill, he definitely could be considered to be (in lore he's a monster that fights in lightening fast strikes/paries, and he's got a 2+ WS on the table). Tactically, he's comparable to any of them, though as it's been said, most tyranids strategies are reactionary, allowing for different tactics to be used. In the psychic arena, I can concede there, as just being innately a psyker doesn't really compare to most primarch level psykers. But, he is the Tyranid equivilant to a Primarch at this time. If he ever gets an updated bit of fluff or rules, we shall see from there.

 Carnikang wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

I disagree. In size he could be considered to be. In skill, he definitely could be considered to be (in lore he's a monster that fights in lightening fast strikes/paries, and he's got a 2+ WS on the table). Tactically, he's comparable to any of them, though as it's been said, most tyranids strategies are reactionary, allowing for different tactics to be used. In the psychic arena, I can concede there, as just being innately a psyker doesn't really compare to most primarch level psykers. But, he is the Tyranid equivilant to a Primarch at this time. If he ever gets an updated bit of fluff or rules, we shall see from there.

The Swarmlord is absolutely not the equal of Primarchs. Primarchs are unrivaled in 40k as there is basically nothing that can match them besides another Primarch. The only thing that ever managed to match a Primarch's power and beat them was the Beast, which was the single most powerful Ork in all of recorded 40k history. The point of Priamrchs and the reason of their creation by the Emperor is that they have no real equal. The closest thing the Eldar have to one is the Avatar of Khaine, and it has never fared well when they clashed with Primarchs, and the closest thing Chaos has to them is the favored Greater Daemons of the Gods. And while Ka'bandha won his first clash- the rematch didn't go so well for him (plus it was Ka'bandha which butchered the entirety of Leviathan and saved the Blood Angles, probably taking out an incarnation of the Swarmlord in the process). Plus while Guilliman isn't the most physically adept of his brothers like Russ or Sanguinius, he is currently throwing about the Emperor's Sword which has proven to end just about anything it's pointed at.

But really something beaten by Marneus Calgar should never, ever be in the same weight class as a Primarch. If you want to throw something at Guilliman to give him a peer fight, bring a Bio-Titan.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

I disagree. In size he could be considered to be. In skill, he definitely could be considered to be (in lore he's a monster that fights in lightening fast strikes/paries, and he's got a 2+ WS on the table). Tactically, he's comparable to any of them, though as it's been said, most tyranids strategies are reactionary, allowing for different tactics to be used. In the psychic arena, I can concede there, as just being innately a psyker doesn't really compare to most primarch level psykers. But, he is the Tyranid equivilant to a Primarch at this time. If he ever gets an updated bit of fluff or rules, we shall see from there.

The Swarmlord is absolutely not the equal of Primarchs. Primarchs are unrivaled in 40k as there is basically nothing that can match them besides another Primarch. The only thing that ever managed to match a Primarch's power and beat them was the Beast, which was the single most powerful Ork in all of recorded 40k history. The point of Priamrchs and the reason of their creation by the Emperor is that they have no real equal. The closest thing the Eldar have to one is the Avatar of Khaine, and it has never fared well when they clashed with Primarchs, and the closest thing Chaos has to them is the favored Greater Daemons of the Gods. And while Ka'bandha won his first clash- the rematch didn't go so well for him (plus it was Ka'bandha which butchered the entirety of Leviathan and saved the Blood Angles, probably taking out an incarnation of the Swarmlord in the process). Plus while Guilliman isn't the most physically adept of his brothers like Russ or Sanguinius, he is currently throwing about the Emperor's Sword which has proven to end just about anything it's pointed at.

But really something beaten by Marneus Calgar should never, ever be in the same weight class as a Primarch. If you want to throw something at Guilliman to give him a peer fight, bring a Bio-Titan.

I really enjoy that people say it butchered the entirety of leviathan. Leviathan spans the galactic disk. Twice.

Nothing has ever faced more than a fraction of leviathan because leviathan is currently fighting everyone. And the Nids that were about to wipe the BA out of existance were not "butchered". They disappeared.

The primarchs are not the is all to end all of living entities. A heirophant would annihilate a primarch 1 on 1. A dmonatrix wouldn't even be a competition. The swarmlord is absolutely their equal. Especially because it can be modified, tweaked, and enhanced and come back each time until the thing is purpose built for destroying them.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

I disagree. In size he could be considered to be. In skill, he definitely could be considered to be (in lore he's a monster that fights in lightening fast strikes/paries, and he's got a 2+ WS on the table). Tactically, he's comparable to any of them, though as it's been said, most tyranids strategies are reactionary, allowing for different tactics to be used. In the psychic arena, I can concede there, as just being innately a psyker doesn't really compare to most primarch level psykers. But, he is the Tyranid equivilant to a Primarch at this time. If he ever gets an updated bit of fluff or rules, we shall see from there.

The Swarmlord is absolutely not the equal of Primarchs. Primarchs are unrivaled in 40k as there is basically nothing that can match them besides another Primarch. The only thing that ever managed to match a Primarch's power and beat them was the Beast, which was the single most powerful Ork in all of recorded 40k history. The point of Priamrchs and the reason of their creation by the Emperor is that they have no real equal. The closest thing the Eldar have to one is the Avatar of Khaine, and it has never fared well when they clashed with Primarchs, and the closest thing Chaos has to them is the favored Greater Daemons of the Gods. And while Ka'bandha won his first clash- the rematch didn't go so well for him (plus it was Ka'bandha which butchered the entirety of Leviathan and saved the Blood Angles, probably taking out an incarnation of the Swarmlord in the process). Plus while Guilliman isn't the most physically adept of his brothers like Russ or Sanguinius, he is currently throwing about the Emperor's Sword which has proven to end just about anything it's pointed at.

But really something beaten by Marneus Calgar should never, ever be in the same weight class as a Primarch. If you want to throw something at Guilliman to give him a peer fight, bring a Bio-Titan.

I really enjoy that people say it butchered the entirety of leviathan. Leviathan spans the galactic disk. Twice.

Nothing has ever faced more than a fraction of leviathan because leviathan is currently fighting everyone. And the Nids that were about to wipe the BA out of existance were not "butchered". They disappeared.

The primarchs are not the is all to end all of living entities. A heirophant would annihilate a primarch 1 on 1. A dmonatrix wouldn't even be a competition. The swarmlord is absolutely their equal. Especially because it can be modified, tweaked, and enhanced and come back each time until the thing is purpose built for destroying them.

It did destroy Leviathan as far as we know. Firstly Leviathan doesn't actually "span the galactic disk", those tyranid maps show the path of their travel and not their actual size (otherwise with that much mass they would literally form a black hole and be incapable of moving), but the fleets are small things that exist at the tips of the arrows. Unless there's some splinter fleets as far as we know Leviathan is now a planetary skull structure made by Ka'bandha and his friends.

And secondly the Swarmlord absolutely is not a counter to a Primarch and your "it'll come back better and stronger" is a load of crap unsupported by any hard evidence in 40k. It got crumped by Calgar in a duel after it had already fought Calgar and won on a prior occasion. That it even dies to a horde of marines is evidence enough that it isn't on the same tier of power as a Primarch. Sure the fluff says "but it will adapt!!!", but assuming that goes on forever is a no-limits fallacy, and the Swarmlord is taken down by far humbler things with consistency. Thirdly a Hierophant is a fight, not a certainty. It's entirely possible for a Primarch to kill one considering that they are peer/superior entities to the most powerful Greater Daemons and have actually fought Imperial titans before. The fluff is quite clear on how outlandishly powerful Primarchs are, what with them seeing supersonic and hypersonic munitions move in slow motion, shaking off artillery shots, having flesh akin to power armor in durability, and having the strength to throw a stone hard enough to turn it into a marine-killing weapon. And that of course is before you enter into the realm of psychic nonsense the Primarchs bring with them, peaking with Magnus trading shots with a Space Marine fleet and surviving orbital bombardments with this sorcerer-enhanced psychic shields before he used telekinesis to smash two cruisers in high orbit into each other.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

As for the Swarmlord fighting RG, I'd agree with the majority. Swarmie will lose for a bit, but will adapt and grow and eventually either force RG to retreat, or be devoured. Considering the Swarmlord is SUPPOSED TO BE primarch like, I'd say a duel between the two in fluff terms might be an interesting and entertaining match.

I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

I disagree. In size he could be considered to be. In skill, he definitely could be considered to be (in lore he's a monster that fights in lightening fast strikes/paries, and he's got a 2+ WS on the table). Tactically, he's comparable to any of them, though as it's been said, most tyranids strategies are reactionary, allowing for different tactics to be used. In the psychic arena, I can concede there, as just being innately a psyker doesn't really compare to most primarch level psykers. But, he is the Tyranid equivilant to a Primarch at this time. If he ever gets an updated bit of fluff or rules, we shall see from there.

The Swarmlord is absolutely not the equal of Primarchs. Primarchs are unrivaled in 40k as there is basically nothing that can match them besides another Primarch. The only thing that ever managed to match a Primarch's power and beat them was the Beast, which was the single most powerful Ork in all of recorded 40k history. The point of Priamrchs and the reason of their creation by the Emperor is that they have no real equal. The closest thing the Eldar have to one is the Avatar of Khaine, and it has never fared well when they clashed with Primarchs, and the closest thing Chaos has to them is the favored Greater Daemons of the Gods. And while Ka'bandha won his first clash- the rematch didn't go so well for him (plus it was Ka'bandha which butchered the entirety of Leviathan and saved the Blood Angles, probably taking out an incarnation of the Swarmlord in the process). Plus while Guilliman isn't the most physically adept of his brothers like Russ or Sanguinius, he is currently throwing about the Emperor's Sword which has proven to end just about anything it's pointed at.

But really something beaten by Marneus Calgar should never, ever be in the same weight class as a Primarch. If you want to throw something at Guilliman to give him a peer fight, bring a Bio-Titan.

I really enjoy that people say it butchered the entirety of leviathan. Leviathan spans the galactic disk. Twice.

Nothing has ever faced more than a fraction of leviathan because leviathan is currently fighting everyone. And the Nids that were about to wipe the BA out of existance were not "butchered". They disappeared.

The primarchs are not the is all to end all of living entities. A heirophant would annihilate a primarch 1 on 1. A dmonatrix wouldn't even be a competition. The swarmlord is absolutely their equal. Especially because it can be modified, tweaked, and enhanced and come back each time until the thing is purpose built for destroying them.

It did destroy Leviathan as far as we know. Firstly Leviathan doesn't actually "span the galactic disk", those tyranid maps show the path of their travel and not their actual size (otherwise with that much mass they would literally form a black hole and be incapable of moving),

Except Leviathan didn't enter from the side of the galaxy like the others. It came up from the bottom of the galactic disk all at once. So every single point on the map where you see Leviathan is a place where leviathan showed up all at once. The lore talks about how it showed up in 2 long lines cutting off whole sections from communication because of the shadow in the warp. It showed up looking like a pair of jaws closing over a section of the galaxy.

So no. All of leviathan was not fighting the BA. A huge section of leviathan is also fighting the orks, while another section has been making a b line for Terra with a couple dozen SM chapters and IG fleets working together to slow it's advance.

but the fleets are small things that exist at the tips of the arrows. Unless there's some splinter fleets as far as we know Leviathan is now a planetary skull structure made by Ka'bandha and his friends.

With every planet consumed the fleets grow bigger and leviathan has not been stopped AT ALL besides this single blurb about the BA. The skull structure was made of xenos skulls. Not Nid skulls. Also... keep in mind, the individual fighting organisms are nothing. Unless the Hive Ships corpses can be found someplace that group of leviathan hasn't been destroyed. It's just gone.

And secondly the Swarmlord absolutely is not a counter to a Primarch and your "it'll come back better and stronger" is a load of crap unsupported by any hard evidence in 40k. It got crumped by Calgar in a duel after it had already fought Calgar and won on a prior occasion. That it even dies to a horde of marines is evidence enough that it isn't on the same tier of power as a Primarch. Sure the fluff says "but it will adapt!!!", but assuming that goes on forever is a no-limits fallacy, and the Swarmlord is taken down by far humbler things with consistency. Thirdly a Hierophant is a fight, not a certainty. It's entirely possible for a Primarch to kill one considering that they are peer/superior entities to the most powerful Greater Daemons and have actually fought Imperial titans before. The fluff is quite clear on how outlandishly powerful Primarchs are, what with them seeing supersonic and hypersonic munitions move in slow motion, shaking off artillery shots, having flesh akin to power armor in durability, and having the strength to throw a stone hard enough to turn it into a marine-killing weapon. And that of course is before you enter into the realm of psychic nonsense the Primarchs bring with them, peaking with Magnus trading shots with a Space Marine fleet and surviving orbital bombardments with this sorcerer-enhanced psychic shields before he used telekinesis to smash two cruisers in high orbit into each other.

I can't seem to find any story of calgar actually beating the swarmlord. Just that the Ultramarines took the planet back but no mention of what happened to the swarmlord. So, like OOE, he's probably dormant somewhere on Ultramar until more hive ships show up to support it. Got a link to back that up?

Nids, ABSOLUTELY adapt and evolve. It's all they do. Almost all nid units and biomorphs are adaptations. Gargoyles, flyrants, and shrikes are all adaptations to answer electric fences.

None of the primarchs have had to deal with the shadow in the warp yet. Lets not kid ourselves, as much as I am sure the primarchs have the iron will to muscle through it, I doubt very much they can manifest much of anything since deamon enhanced magnus got shut down by a few sisters of silence. A heirophant would masacre RG 1 on 1 on the table and in the fluff.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I don't recall the Swarmlord ever being portrayed as comparable to a Primarch, especially not in combat.

Probably not in official fluff, but in the early days of 6th edition Swarmlord with Biomancy was able to beat up the 30k Primarchs on the table top fairly easily (Horus was the only one that gave him problems - it was still a fairly even fight despite Swarmy being half the cost). His old table-top statline was also fairly similar to that of a Primarch as well which furthers the comparison.

 Lance845 wrote:

I can't seem to find any story of calgar actually beating the swarmlord. Just that the Ultramarines took the planet back but no mention of what happened to the swarmlord.

It was in the 6th edition Tyranid codex under Kraken's invasion of Ichar IV. Just a small blurb about a rematch between the two on page 17 with Calgar winning after a lengthy duel. I vaguely remember reading elsewhere that the only reason Calgar "won" the duel at all was due to his honor guard yet again biting the blade for him and getting slaughtered to a man so he could get in a back-strike while Swarmy was distracted.

That said, with Guilliman out and Calgar languishing as a finecast model I could see round three ending with Swarmlord finishing the old chapter master off. He isn't needed anymore and it saves GW the hassle of making a new kit for him.

 Lance845 wrote:
The skull structure was made of xenos skulls. Not Nid skulls

Sadly that one was blatantly Tyranid skulls, with the implication it was constructed from trophies taken from ground swarms. The tendril itself is MIA and will probably end up ejected in an inconvenient place like the Kraken tendril in Valdor, but other tendrils of Leviathan are confirmed to still be active in the rulebook. We will see what the Tyranid codex itself brings...

The original swarmlord fluff had it crush Calgar. Outmaneuvering his forces and countering his tactics at every turn, before tearing him apart in close combat. Followed by Calgar only escaping by feeding the swarmlord half of his honour guard while he was loaded into a thunderhawk.

Then the next set of marine fluff came out, and tweaked things so that the 'nefarious' swarmlord just got a few good tricks in, with its forces killing hundreds of guardsmen while the heroic ultramarines blasted chunks out of them.
Then the swarmlord + a pile of tyrant guard and warriors went and kicked over a stranded Calgar, before getting chased away by axe wielding honor guard.
Some followup fluff had Calgar punch out the swarmlord in a one on one combat rematch.

It's just codex writers one-upping each other. Giving a different twist on events to make their faction look more awesome. Plus probably a bit of Matt Ward being salty about someone beating up his pet armies boss.