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 Marmatag wrote:
I won't be playing in tournaments until this is fixed. I will also refuse every game against imperial guard that comes up. Sorry. Your cheese army isn't fun to play against. Curb stomp someone else.

Do you at least look at the lists before refusing? I know it is your right to refuse to play whomever you like, but I am just imagining a sad 60 year old with a super fluffy Steel Legion list that he is really excited to play. The person is far more important than the codex when it comes to a good game.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't feel bad, trust me. They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Which doesn't change the fact that you're suffering through 4 hours of doing something you don't like to attempt to make your opponent feel bad at the end it. Or...something else I'm missing.

It leaves one scratching their head as to what you're doing with your time.

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
About as pleasant as playing it on my end. Except one takes 4 hours and one takes 20 seconds.

So you'd suffer through 4 hours of doing something you don't like just to make your opponent feel bad at the end of it?

Sounds delightful.

No, he meant it took 4 hours to lose to Eldar.

You lose to guard in about 20 seconds. (assuming they go first, and they roll dice with normal human speed).

 Marmatag wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
About as pleasant as playing it on my end. Except one takes 4 hours and one takes 20 seconds.

So you'd suffer through 4 hours of doing something you don't like just to make your opponent feel bad at the end of it?

Sounds delightful.

No, he meant it took 4 hours to lose to Eldar.

You lose to guard in about 20 seconds. (assuming they go first, and they roll dice with normal human speed).

Awesome, that means I'll get to win hundreds of times in 4 hours instead of only once!

 Blacksails wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
About as pleasant as playing it on my end. Except one takes 4 hours and one takes 20 seconds.

So you'd suffer through 4 hours of doing something you don't like just to make your opponent feel bad at the end of it?

Sounds delightful.

No, he meant it took 4 hours to lose to Eldar.

You lose to guard in about 20 seconds. (assuming they go first, and they roll dice with normal human speed).

Awesome, that means I'll get to win hundreds of times in 4 hours instead of only once!

If you subtract setup time, you should be winning your games in about 15-20 minutes if you go first. That's how long it should take before your opponent realizes he stands no chance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I won't be playing in tournaments until this is fixed. I will also refuse every game against imperial guard that comes up. Sorry. Your cheese army isn't fun to play against. Curb stomp someone else.

Do you at least look at the lists before refusing? I know it is your right to refuse to play whomever you like, but I am just imagining a sad 60 year old with a super fluffy Steel Legion list that he is really excited to play. The person is far more important than the codex when it comes to a good game.

I'm curt on the forums but i'm actually quite pleasant in real life. I would not hurt someone's feelings, but i'm also there for enjoyment. I can only play on the weekends with my life the way it is. I don't want to spend my time getting plunged by a broken army.

 Marmatag wrote:


If you subtract setup time, you should be winning your games in about 15-20 minutes if you go first. That's how long it should take before your opponent realizes he stands no chance.

But you promised me victory in 30secs.

Changes I would make to balance out the codex:

1) Normal guardsmen become 5pts per model putting them in line with every other infantry in terms of points per power
2) Conscripts points are increased 4pts per model
3) Hellhound inferno cannon cost increased from 20pts to 40pts (it was stupid it was ever this cheap with 16” range)
4) Basilisks and Manticores both increased in cost by 10pts
5) Leman Russ tanks become 10pts more to their original cost due to all the buffs they received.
6) Regimental tactics should only work on infantry and Leman Russ tanks similar to every unit (why are they the only army that can do this)
7) Commisars fearless aura can only work on 1 squad per turn. In addition, after killing a model add the following rule (if a commissar uses summary execution on unit has more than 10 models roll a D6. On a 3+ the summary execution restores faith in the emperor. If the roll is failed the commissar must execute another model to restore faith in the Emperor. Keep performing this test until the test is passed.
8) The +1 cover save strategem only works on infantry and must be used at the beginning of your opponents shooting phase
9) Heavy weapon teams cost increased to 8pts (the same as 2 conscript models under my pricing)
10) Baneblade variants all increased by 50pts due to all the buffs they recieved (why did they get massive buffs and reduced in cost?)
11) Scions in your detachment no longer make your detachmen regiment battleforged (it is this way for every other codex)
12) the relic and trait that return command points both work on a 6+ instead of a 5+


These changes would still result in the Astra Militarum being extremely powerful, but people would feel like they at least have a chance to beat them. Right now it feels like the Astra Militarum have about a 15-25% points advantage over other codexes. This makes them not undefeatable but very hard to win against in evenly match opponents and dice rolls.

Martel732 wrote:
They don't feel bad, trust me. They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

You know, you really should just find better people to play against. Why would you play against people who are no fun?

 Marmatag wrote:
I'm curt on the forums but i'm actually quite pleasant in real life. I would not hurt someone's feelings, but i'm also there for enjoyment. I can only play on the weekends with my life the way it is. I don't want to spend my time getting plunged by a broken army.

Again, you really just need to find nice people to play against (not that I am implying you don't, how would I know?). The codex doesn't matter if the person using it is a good sport that you talk to about stuff before hand. I remember several different armies waxing and waning in power over the years. I know people who took all the advantages and were horrible to play against, so I just didn't. I have known some of the nicest people who could make a game so enjoyable to. An Eldar player I used to know was one of the best painters I have ever seen, and games were always enjoyable even at the height of Eldar OP-ness.

I know it is easy to make sweeping generalisations but it is really important to understand the person you are playing against and not assume that they are going to be a bad matchup just because the codex is broken or not. Hell, I've had some of the most fun games I have ever played against OP codexes, because we talked about it beforehand and played some fun mission we thought up to balance things. That Cadian gunline that someone has been lovingly painting for 15 years is OP now? Why not mix things up by playing a meat-grinder game where you keep respawning your Tyranids until you eventually drag them down. Make the mission that they have a certain amount of time until a VIP is rescued. They win? You can still continue until everything is yummy bio-paste.

My point is that two friendly players with a bit of compromise can have wonderful games no matter what the current codexes are. Tournaments are different of course, but they are their own thing.

 Trickstick wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They don't feel bad, trust me. They know EXACTLY what they are doing.

You know, you really should just find better people to play against. Why would you play against people who are no fun?

Sometimes it's that or nothing, there's a limited pool of players in any given location. If you don't like the local meta, what are your other options? Don't play. Play but enjoy yourself less. Move?

 Torga_DW wrote:
Sometimes it's that or nothing, there's a limited pool of players in any given location. If you don't like the local meta, what are your other options? Don't play. Play but enjoy yourself less. Move?

True. I live between near two large cities and have loads of options for gaming. I sometimes forget how sparse other places can be.

I understand your sentiment but with limited game time i'd rather just avoid guard altogether. At least with Eldar it was easy to pluck out the OP stuff.

With Guard it's basically everything. And it's easier just to refuse games with them, than to come up with some crazy scenario where i don't get faced turn 1.

 Marmatag wrote:
I understand your sentiment but with limited game time i'd rather just avoid guard altogether. At least with Eldar it was easy to pluck out the OP stuff.

With Guard it's basically everything. And it's easier just to refuse games with them, than to come up with some crazy scenario where i don't get faced turn 1.

True. If given the choice it is far easier to just play against the Salamander player...

I guess it is because I'm coming at this from the other side. I have been writing list and have to think along the lines of "Hmmm, maybe my shadowsord and 5 russes wouldn't be the most fun to play against...".

broxus wrote:
Changes I would make to balance out the codex:

1) Normal guardsmen become 5pts per model putting them in line with every other infantry in terms of points per power
2) Conscripts points are increased 4pts per model
3) Hellhound inferno cannon cost increased from 20pts to 40pts (it was stupid it was ever this cheap with 16” range)
4) Basilisks and Manticores both increased in cost by 10pts
5) Leman Russ tanks become 10pts more to their original cost due to all the buffs they received.
6) Regimental tactics should only work on infantry and Leman Russ tanks similar to every unit (why are they the only army that can do this)
7) Commisars fearless aura can only work on 1 squad per turn. In addition, after killing a model add the following rule (if a commissar uses summary execution on unit has more than 10 models roll a D6. On a 3+ the summary execution restores faith in the emperor. If the roll is failed the commissar must execute another model to restore faith in the Emperor. Keep performing this test until the test is passed.
8) The +1 cover save strategem only works on infantry and must be used at the beginning of your opponents shooting phase
9) Heavy weapon teams cost increased to 8pts (the same as 2 conscript models under my pricing)
10) Baneblade variants all increased by 50pts due to all the buffs they recieved (why did they get massive buffs and reduced in cost?)
11) Scions in your detachment no longer make your detachmen regiment battleforged (it is this way for every other codex)
12) the relic and trait that return command points both work on a 6+ instead of a 5+


These changes would still result in the Astra Militarum being extremely powerful, but people would feel like they at least have a chance to beat them. Right now it feels like the Astra Militarum have about a 15-25% points advantage over other codexes. This makes them not undefeatable but very hard to win against in evenly match opponents and dice rolls.

Most of that list looks fine, except 6, 7, and 11.

For 6: I think instead of removing the ability from guard vehicles, they should just make an errata for the older codices that GRANT their traits to all vehicles.

For 7: If you limit Commissar use to 1 unit, it basically ties them to Conscripts even harder, and your keep rolling and executing roll is slightly too complex. Instead just make Commissar blam 1d3 or 1d6 members of units of over 10.

For 11: Scions already don't gain the regimental bonus when in a non scion detachment, and are one of the units that actually got hit with a fair nerf - the Scions themselves were not the problem, the plasma was, and that got bumped up. Even in an all Scion detachment, plasma is the only weaponry that has immediate use from their doctrine, the rest you either need to wait a turn to get closer (their lasguns) or wait a turn to lose the penalty for moving with heavy (volley guns). If Scions are still overperforming slightly with plasma, just give a scion only bump of a small handful of points to plasma and that would be fixed.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I understand your sentiment but with limited game time i'd rather just avoid guard altogether. At least with Eldar it was easy to pluck out the OP stuff.

With Guard it's basically everything. And it's easier just to refuse games with them, than to come up with some crazy scenario where i don't get faced turn 1.

True. If given the choice it is far easier to just play against the Salamander player...

I guess it is because I'm coming at this from the other side. I have been writing list and have to think along the lines of "Hmmm, maybe my shadowsord and 5 russes wouldn't be the most fun to play against...".

As always, it depends on your local meta. If it's super competitive, that wouldn't be out of place. If its people alpha-striking with tactical squads, yeah that probably wouldn't make for a fun game.

 Torga_DW wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I understand your sentiment but with limited game time i'd rather just avoid guard altogether. At least with Eldar it was easy to pluck out the OP stuff.

With Guard it's basically everything. And it's easier just to refuse games with them, than to come up with some crazy scenario where i don't get faced turn 1.

True. If given the choice it is far easier to just play against the Salamander player...

I guess it is because I'm coming at this from the other side. I have been writing list and have to think along the lines of "Hmmm, maybe my shadowsord and 5 russes wouldn't be the most fun to play against...".

As always, it depends on your local meta. If it's super competitive, that wouldn't be out of place. If its people alpha-striking with tactical squads, yeah that probably wouldn't make for a fun game.

*looks at list with alpha striking tactical squads that just took on a fellblade* Ahh, bring it!

 Marmatag wrote:
I understand your sentiment but with limited game time i'd rather just avoid guard altogether. At least with Eldar it was easy to pluck out the OP stuff.

With Guard it's basically everything. And it's easier just to refuse games with them, than to come up with some crazy scenario where i don't get faced turn 1.

Sounds like us in 7th vs Necrons, Eldar, Marines. I now see it sucks being the OP army too. Honestly, I think I liked being the underdog better.

I still say people are overreacting. Even if the codex is statistically better, a good player can still come through. in 5th edition I won 3-0 against Meltavet spam (one of the most popular Guard builds at the time) using tyranids, and I didn't have access to the fancy (then new) stuff like Doom, Tervigons or even Trygons. Just Genestealers. Lots and lots of genestealers.

I also went 1-0 against Tau in 6th edition with Khorne Berserkers. The guy lost so badly that he accused me of foul play....because he was cheating and therefore the only way I could beat him was if I was cheating too (I wasn't. He sat in a corner thinking he could shoot me off the board. I just ignored his big stuff and went straight for the squishy fire warriors. What he cheated was lying about the amount of hull points our units had, and I was new to 6th at the time).

I'm actually looking for a Guard player near me with a cheese set up, just to see how powerful this could be. And I will face him with either Alaitoc Snipers, Biel Tan Aspect Warriors or Kabalite gunboats. I want a challenge baby.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still say people are overreacting. Even if the codex is statistically better, a good player can still come through. in 5th edition I won 3-0 against Meltavet spam (one of the most popular Guard builds at the time) using tyranids, and I didn't have access to the fancy (then new) stuff like Doom, Tervigons or even Trygons. Just Genestealers. Lots and lots of genestealers.

I also went 1-0 against Tau in 6th edition with Khorne Berserkers. The guy lost so badly that he accused me of foul play....because he was cheating and therefore the only way I could beat him was if I was cheating too (I wasn't. He sat in a corner thinking he could shoot me off the board. I just ignored his big stuff and went straight for the squishy fire warriors. What he cheated was lying about the amount of hull points our units had, and I was new to 6th at the time).

I'm actually looking for a Guard player near me with a cheese set up, just to see how powerful this could be. And I will face him with either Alaitoc Snipers, Biel Tan Aspect Warriors or Kabalite gunboats. I want a challenge baby.

What, bs no you can't; since 5th 90% of games could be called simply based off army list composition. That remains the same today.

EDIT: The game has always been 70% WHAT IS IN THE LIST.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still say people are overreacting. Even if the codex is statistically better, a good player can still come through. in 5th edition I won 3-0 against Meltavet spam (one of the most popular Guard builds at the time) using tyranids, and I didn't have access to the fancy (then new) stuff like Doom, Tervigons or even Trygons. Just Genestealers. Lots and lots of genestealers.

I also went 1-0 against Tau in 6th edition with Khorne Berserkers. The guy lost so badly that he accused me of foul play....because he was cheating and therefore the only way I could beat him was if I was cheating too (I wasn't. He sat in a corner thinking he could shoot me off the board. I just ignored his big stuff and went straight for the squishy fire warriors. What he cheated was lying about the amount of hull points our units had, and I was new to 6th at the time).

I'm actually looking for a Guard player near me with a cheese set up, just to see how powerful this could be. And I will face him with either Alaitoc Snipers, Biel Tan Aspect Warriors or Kabalite gunboats. I want a challenge baby.

I've played against Codex Guard. No, you can't just beat it with 'Good play', you also need luck. A LOT of luck.
See, because 'Skilled play' doesn't really help when you lose more than half your army in a single shooting phase. If the Imperial Guard player goes first, he pretty much wins automatically unless your table is covered with a simply ridiculous amount of terrain specifically to counter Imperial Guard, (By which I mean, 95% of the board is covered with LoS blockers, and that remaining 5% is also LoS blockers, and the IG player wasn't told about this in advance.)

If you build your entire list around not dying, you maybe could survive a little better, but then you won't have anything that can budge the incredibly durable, cost-effective Imperial Guard codex.


You don't even get a chance to employ 'Skilled play' unless you get first turn, so that's 1/3rd of games already auto-lost. (Assuming you use Chapter approved rules. Otherwise it's something like 3/10ths, the odds of Seizing the Initiative with a command point for re-rolls.)

Then, you need to have an army that can put out enough damage to significantly hurt your opponent in one round. If you don't destroy at least 1/3rd of the IG player's army, he's still going to have easily enough firepower to kill you.
You can't assault his good units, because they're all screened off by 100+ conscripts.

Then, when you're fighting him after he's lost 1/3rd of his forces, you have to make sure you can't be tarpitted yourself by the chaff units, and you have to have an army that's tanky enough to survive the still-incredibly-powerful shooting that IG can put out even after taking heavy losses. You need to weather a turn with minimal casualties, because you're going to have to hit back just as hard as you did on turn one.


So, in short, if you want to have a chance at beating Imperial Guard, you need:
Good dice
Really good firepower
Really good durability
Screening units

You know the only place you can reliably get all of these (except luck) without sacrificing model count or points?
Imperial, freaking, Guard.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still say people are overreacting. Even if the codex is statistically better, a good player can still come through. in 5th edition I won 3-0 against Meltavet spam (one of the most popular Guard builds at the time) using tyranids, and I didn't have access to the fancy (then new) stuff like Doom, Tervigons or even Trygons. Just Genestealers. Lots and lots of genestealers.

I also went 1-0 against Tau in 6th edition with Khorne Berserkers. The guy lost so badly that he accused me of foul play....because he was cheating and therefore the only way I could beat him was if I was cheating too (I wasn't. He sat in a corner thinking he could shoot me off the board. I just ignored his big stuff and went straight for the squishy fire warriors. What he cheated was lying about the amount of hull points our units had, and I was new to 6th at the time).

I'm actually looking for a Guard player near me with a cheese set up, just to see how powerful this could be. And I will face him with either Alaitoc Snipers, Biel Tan Aspect Warriors or Kabalite gunboats. I want a challenge baby.

Ordinarily, I would agree with this 100%. Like Waaaghpower pointed out though, when an army has a devastating turn 1 alpha strike that cripples a 1/3 of your army with you having no way of preventing it, it becomes an uphill struggle regrouping from that. Sure, you might be able to pull out a win with brilliant tactics and hot dice, but the odds are against that of happening.

Most games of 8th I've seen have a clear end by turn 3-4 due to that very reason for any army really, but the current form of IG just really emphasising that point as they can do it so easily.

I often use melee armies so seeing something like half my army being wiped before they even do anything is a common sight to me. Thinking my way around obstacles is always a fun challenge.

EDIT: Most pre-8th edition games (Spanning from late 3rd-7th) ended on turn 3-4 for me too. It is very rare for me to get a game that lasts past that without both sides essentially resorting to a slapfight (in fact the only time when I had that happen was when my predator had insane luck and kept avoiding anything worse than a Crew Stunned result, which it ignored due to having Daemonic Possession. But I don't usually count that one because it was due to insane luck on my part).

The whole codex/index meta is a mess of imbalances. The 6 games i have against the AM/IG codex, has been a poor play experience, my opponent made it tolerable. My meta has 4 diehard AM/IG players, 2 power gamers with AM/IG and an imperial soup player.

I am waiting for chapter approved before i sharpen my pitch fork and lite a torch.

i will not be entering an other tournament or going to the open nights at an lgs until i see the chapter approved. My index/lists are in a stagnant state, half my options are overcosted/not viable or a strictly worse option. Reaching for them as a test, resulted in an even worse ass whooping. Each short coming has only been made more obvious with every codex as they come out. But the AM/IG codex is a spotlight on every little fault and how stagnant my lists have become.

It is going to take an act of the emporer to change my current negative opinion. Good luck GW.

Remember, "if you have a better lower tier army and someone with a higher tier army beats you, you have the right to belittle their victory DSP style," is what I'm getting right now from this crowd.

Funny how much some Guard players are starting to sound like Eldar players from 7th. The stalwarts I recognize from the lean years of late have a far more realistic take I find.

Problem is that even if a IG player tried to put together a fluffy list like a tank company, it would be deemed OP abuse.

They can't win either way lol

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Problem is that even if a IG player tried to put together a fluffy list like a tank company, it would be deemed OP abuse.

They can't win either way lol

It's not their fault, honestly. It seems everything is just super viable, no matter how you build your IG army. I bought the codex. I tend to buy all the codexes (codeci? codexiei? whatever). Wait codices! Anyway, I tend to buy them all. I really love the book. I was blown away by how powerful their units are, and their army over all.

I have always loved the IG, I just have a small amount of models and it's a labor intensive army painting wise. I look forward to seeing how this plays out in the long run. Luckily the guys I play against are all good sports, and we have 2 dedicated IG players so we'll be seeing the armies a lot.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I still say people are overreacting. Even if the codex is statistically better, a good player can still come through. in 5th edition I won 3-0 against Meltavet spam (one of the most popular Guard builds at the time) using tyranids, and I didn't have access to the fancy (then new) stuff like Doom, Tervigons or even Trygons. Just Genestealers. Lots and lots of genestealers.

I also went 1-0 against Tau in 6th edition with Khorne Berserkers. The guy lost so badly that he accused me of foul play....because he was cheating and therefore the only way I could beat him was if I was cheating too (I wasn't. He sat in a corner thinking he could shoot me off the board. I just ignored his big stuff and went straight for the squishy fire warriors. What he cheated was lying about the amount of hull points our units had, and I was new to 6th at the time).

I'm actually looking for a Guard player near me with a cheese set up, just to see how powerful this could be. And I will face him with either Alaitoc Snipers, Biel Tan Aspect Warriors or Kabalite gunboats. I want a challenge baby.

Well if this were honestly the case those lovely Berserker Marines from 6th edition would've been used more often in tournaments, or are tournament users just netlisters that don't know what they're doing?

Okay, how about these for a proposed nerf for Codex IG

1) Grinding advance: (change to) If a Leman Russ moves less than 1/2 of its Current Movement characteristic, it may shoot all of it’s weapons without a movement penalty

2) Conscripts
A) Conscript Commander: part of the unit (like a sergeant) with the datasheet like a Platoon Commander. Same cost. Can only give orders to it’s unit, and is the only officer model that can give orders to the unit. Still a character, and can be individually targeted as such. Unit can be targeted normally.
B) Conscript Commissar: Similar to Conscript Commander, but use Commissar.
C) No more orders on 4+
D) Neither Conscript Commander, nor Conscript Commissar is mandatory, but neccessary for Orders and Summary Execution. Neither model counts towards Battleforge detachments.
E) Return max unit size to 50 Conscripts + Commander and Commissar
F) Unit cannot advance, except by voice order
G) The unit saves on the conscript stat-line, unless the Commander/Commisar is individually targeted, and then those models save on their respective stat-lines.

3) IG Battleforged Brigades receive 6 bonus command points instead of 9

And for “friendly” play

Non-IG armies playing against Codex IG armies get a bonus 25% (points/power level) reinforcement reserve which cannot be deployed until turn 2.

This doesn’t address everything, but I think it is a workable good start.

For now, I’d probably caution against raising the points cost of Guard infantry, rather, potentially look at reducing the cost of other armies basic infantry instead. Currently there is no difference between a Conscript and a Termagant, but one is considered OP because it can FRFSRF, while the other can potentially just keep getting models back. Both can be immune to morale.

Inferno cannon, I agree could prob use a slight increase in points, but I’ve not seen enough of it to fully gauge its power in comparison to other, similar options elsewhere.

Basilisks I think are pretty reasonable right now – you don’t see them one shotting things very often and can only really reliably do so when taken in groups of 3 or 4. If someone is investing 432 points into 1 shotting a Rhino via Basilisks I think you have a good trade off. Manticores, however, could do with a slight increase as they have the flexibility to hit both infantry and vehicles. For example, Manticores only need 399 points to kill a rhino. The trade off is only 4 shots, but, by turn 4 most games of 8th have finished anyway – Guard or no Guard. A 10 point increase will bring them in line with Basilisks.

Currently not enough info on whether the 10 point decrease in Russes is having a massive impact on the game. More results are required to see whether or not the Russ is “too good” for its points.

Admech have their dogma’s affecting everything in their army (and can even affect Knights via a CP). The only ones that don’t effect everything is Marines and Chaos. I’m expecting Eldar and Tyranids to have everything affect everything (or at least Tyranids anyway). Take it from Guard you also need to take it from Admech. Currently i’m not too fussed about not seeing a Landraider fall back and still shoot, or a -2 to hit flyer, or a re-rolling 1 hit and 1 wound Predator etc.

Commisars I think need a slight change for Conscripts only. I think it should be along the lines of shooting 1+1d3 per 10 models alive in the unit. This would mean a 25-man unit would lose at least 3 models, but up to 7 could be lost. A similar mechanic already exists in the way the Leviathan’s Grav Flux works. It is also quick and easy to resolve.

While I agree the stratagem working on certain units is a bit… illogical, changing it to the start of the phase is also pretty illogical. Why would a unit that isn’t getting shot at take cover? Yes, it prob needs changing so it doesn’t effect Baneblades and flyers, but that’s about it.

Likewise, with leaving standard infantry as they are, Heavy weapons teams have just had an increase anyway. Give it a bit of time to see whether this has any kind of impact first, before just increasing them again “just cos”.

Unfortunately, Baneblades needed to changes in order to make them a reasonable option. Rising them up to above where they were before the changes is just a massive knee-jerk in my view. Some of them didn’t even come down in points, but you still want to increase them across the board? A fully tooled up, flamer Shadowsword currently costs 614 points. You want to make it 664 points because it now fires 3d3 shots instead of d6? It doesn’t even have an invuln and can still easily die in 1 turn of shooting. A basic Shadowsword would cost 414 points with your changes. 414 points to “likely” kill 1 tank a turn until it starts to degrade.

As someone else said, Scion’s already don’t get any benefit from being in another detachment as they are treated like Auxilia.

I would leave the relic as it is at a 5+ and change the trait to a 6+. Most armies you go up against are going to have between 4 and 7 CP. Even if they use all the CP on 1 CP stratagems you’re only going to get the benefit of 1-2 CP per game on average. Hardly game breaking. If they use the points on 2CP stratagems you’ll be getting even less.



Automatically Appended Next Post:


But, then you’d have to change the Tallarn doctrine as it’ll be pretty pointless.

Conscripts don’t need those kinds of changes. I think a simple change to how the commissar works with them would be perfectly fine.

If you nerf the brigade down to 6cp, you need to do it for every army. Which, if I’m honest isn’t a bad idea to start with.

If you are playing “friendly play” you might as well play narrative or open play. Then you can essentially make whatever rules you want. Completely pointless trying to make an official rule for matched play that messes with the army structure.

Well, I'm just hoping I won't be accused of being a power gamer/WAAC player for running a fluffy Steel Legion army...

Granted, it will eventually have 3 Armageddon pattern Medusa artillery, but they look cool tho!