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You could put up ANH and ESB now and they would still be awesome.

But that doesn't prevent TFA being the same.

To the Sad Old Git Society (Soggy Soggy Soggy, Oi Oi Oi!), ANH, ESB and ROTJ will always be better than anything that follows, because we grew up with them. They shaped us and even our own morality.

TFA can't do that for us. Because we're the SOGS. Doesn't mean it can't mean to kids what the originals meant to us.

No. ANH and ESB we're both groundbreaking, better films.

I think TFA > ROTJ. I don't think it's even close.

ROTJ has the bad script, performances, and gratuitous nods to merchandising that would come to define the prequel trilogy. Which isn't a surprise given that the buzz was that Lucas was the 'shadow director' for ROTJ after it became clear that Marquand was out of his depth.

TFA, while derivative and not up to the level of ANH or TESB, feels to me more like those first two films in its tone and performances. *shrug*

To be honest, I don't see why you have to compare them. Both films exist, and on their own merits, both are great as far as I'm concerned. I genuinely consider ANH one of the finest films ever made, a true masterpiece of cinema (much to the chagrin of many film critics, I imagine), but I also consider TFA to be one of my favourites. When there's a new Star Wars, who cares if it's as good as ANH or ESB? For most, that's always going to be an unfair comparison; unless you're of the generation where TFA is your first Star Wars, the others are going to have years of nostalgia behind them skewing things in their favour on a subconscious level. It might be 35 years for the people who saw them when they were released, it might be 15 years for people like me in Generation Prequel who grew up living and breathing Star Wars... in any case, it's not a fair fight. And I'd bet that, in 20 years time, there'll be a Star Wars coming out and the next generation will be grumbling on the internet about how it's not as good as 7/8/9, their 'original' trilogy.

What matters is whether on its own merits, it's a good film, and both TFA and R1 have more than succeeded there as far as I'm concerned. Walking out of TFA for the first time (after the audience gave the movie a standing ovation, something I've never seen before or since in a cinema) I was euphoric, walking out of R1 I was in awe. Both films kept me gripped and entertained for their whole run time, and thus, they've done their job perfectly. I could put either one on now and they'd still thoroughly satisfy me.

You can grumble about inconsistencies in scale, or whether they're homages to earlier stuff or just copying it, or whether there's any great depth to them (there probably isn't, but there never has been; Star Wars has always been joyously 'simple' in that regard, it's what makes it so timeless). Ultimately, the only thing that matters is, did the film entertain its audience? It's become the 'cool' thing to do to bash TFA/Abrams especially online, but look back to when it was released; the praise was near universal across kids and adults, critics and the audiences, online and in person... any assertion that TFA didn't do its job in entertaining the vast, vast majority of those millions of people who saw it is demonstrably untrue.

Fair points.

ESB is not just a good SW movie. It's one of the great films among films, period. I have no delusions about Disney calculating how to bottle that lightning; no one should expect that quality again. So we get TFA, which is obviously the product of calculation - but hey the number crunchers managed not to get in the way of some breathless fun. Then you have R1, where bean counting ruined the picture. Between TFA and R1, that's where I expect Disney's SW to play out ... everything is glossy and, at its best, there are some characters I can care about.

At least when I walked out of R!, I felt like I had seen somethign different int eh Star Wars universe that I had not seen before.

TFA I did not feel that way at all. The only part that really felt like a glimpse at something "new" was when the gangsters tried to steal the Falcon (IIRC) in the middle section.

Like many, my carbonite hard love to Star Wars died as soon as liitle orphan Anakin uttered the word "Mitochloridian"

On a semi-related point, the Solo movie drama has been interesting to watch.

I get why people are worried about studio meddling by the Mouse. But am I the only one to think there's a good chance the studio was right to can Lord and Miller? Obviously it was Disney's mistake in the first place if they hired them. But a free-wheeling, improvisational, jokey style doesn't obviously fit a Han Solo story. In fact, it has disaster potential. Ron Howard will probably give a very professional, by-the-numbers effort that won't inspire, but won't be a dumpster fire either.

As I remarked in an earlier post, it's probably impossible to make a SW film that hits all the marks and makes almost everyone happy.

 gorgon wrote:
On a semi-related point, the Solo movie drama has been interesting to watch.

I get why people are worried about studio meddling by the Mouse. But am I the only one to think there's a good chance the studio was right to can Lord and Miller? Obviously it was Disney's mistake in the first place if they hired them. But a free-wheeling, improvisational, jokey style doesn't obviously fit a Han Solo story. In fact, it has disaster potential. Ron Howard will probably give a very professional, by-the-numbers effort that won't inspire, but won't be a dumpster fire either.

As I remarked in an earlier post, it's probably impossible to make a SW film that hits all the marks and makes almost everyone happy.

I'm actually betting the han solo story vs TLJ will be like rogue one vs TFA. The han solo story will be a legit great story and TLJ will be more nostalgia, more characters we hate and in general a re-hash of ESB. I believe it will show a great character and shows us how he developed and he isn't an OP jedi. The only iffy part is it will deal with a much beloved character so the fans will complain regardless. Also the Han Solo story will have Lando in it i'm betting so we'll have more of an idea what their friendship was like.

But what was new in R1, really? I think Edwards tried pulling it in that direction but his effort was clearly neutered by executives worried about how it would impact the overarching IP. R1 ended up being a total nostalgia fest, with the main goal of syncing right up to ANH.

Definitely agree that a Ghostbusters 2016 style take on SW via the Han Solo stand-alone film would have been terrible. Disney execs are not wrong to be cautious. TFA and R1 are not the products of baseless studio concerns.

I assumed Rey was a youngling that got hidden away on Jakku because Reasons, and had her memories hidden by Luke using the force. after the attack on the Academy and Luke peaced out. Dont know if the timeline works for that, so I could be mistaken. It would explain why she simply knew how to do some things. Kinda dumb and convoluted, but if she knew she was a Jedi in training it would draw attention.

I also assumed Luke killed all of the Knights Of Ren (other than Ben) during the attack on the academy, since familial connections.

 Manchu wrote:
But what was new in R1, really?

None of the main characters were Jedi. We haven't seen that since..... ESB?

Force sensitive.... sure. Jedi? No.

Plus, we saw the Rebellion actual doing stuff without Han, Luke, and Leia doing it for them. That's pretty new in SW.

The death Star blowing up cities.

Y Wings taking out destroyers.

Spanish actors. Ay carumba!

The rebels being very morally grey.

Plus..everybody dies!

TFA was great because it got all the nostalgia out of the way, reintroduced what Star Wars is supposed to be and refreshed it for everyone who already knew.
People give TFA a lot of gak for being a "remake" of ANH, but what they do not seem to realize is that it is actually a remake of the entire OT.
Think about it: The first half of the movie is ANH complete with desert loner encountering a droid with special info that needs to be taken to the good guys. But the later half is more ESB and RotJ. Rey gets taken by the bad guys just like Han was in ESB, they have to take down a shield generator to blow up the big bad space fort, We find out that the masked bad guy has a father/son relationship with one of the good guys. The final battle is way more RotJ too because we have a space battle, ground force trying to take down the shield and a lightsaber battle going on simultaneously.

So in the end TFA was not only a fun watch, but it served a purpose. I appreciate that. Now we can move on with new ideas.

R1 also changed the tone in a new and interesting way, adding a layer of moral ambiguity to the Rebellion, as well as adding a level of 'competence" to the Empire. Making the flaw in the Death Star be a purposely engineered trap makes the Empire not look so dumb for having that flaw for the last 40yrs.

I look forward to what new things the Last Jedi has in store for us. I just hope that Luke is the Lasting Jedi, because I want to see him in Ep9 and not as a force ghost.

-

If the Death Star blowing up a city counts as "new" then so does Starkiller Bass simultaneously blowing up several systems. These are a matter of degree rather than kind. The same is true of several other examples. As to the Rebellion being morally complex - yes, this was the big promise of R1 ... that was ultimatley unfulfilled. Hence why I said Edwards was pulling one way and Disney the other (with Disney winning).

Galef, I get why you're arguing R1 rehabilitates Imperial competence vis-a-vis the Death Star. But that was never actually an issue. ANH presents the plan to torpedo the exhaust port as a Hail Mary. The experienced pilots don't think it's possible and, in practice, they are correct. Fortunately, they brought a rookie with space magic to make the impossible shot.

R1 actually makes the Empire dumber than ever. Krennic never realizes the dude whose wife he shot might want revenge. Storm Troopers with guns stand around while Rebels effortlessly engage them piecemeal in H2H combat. Other times, they fail to engage at all. The Rebel fleet jumps into a system guarded by two ISDs, which don't seem to attack and are deployed so poorly that in space the Rebels can push one into another. TIE fighters launch well after the battle begins, mirroring the gawping, cataonic ground officers Krennic is screaming at below.

Good point that TFA recalls beats from all the OT films, not just ANH. TLJ will probably do the same, I guess.

 Frazzled wrote:


The rebels being very morally grey.

Plus..everybody dies!

For the first act, yes, but it quickly went back to the status quo.
Everyone dying actually works against the film, as they introduced all of these characters and killed them off before really doing anything without, thus killing (heh) any dramatic impact their deaths was supposed to have. No different from bad horror movie deaths, really.

Well, I was just trying to be an umbrella, but some people just want the rain on their parade.

I can't get enough Star Wars and I'd rather try to have an overly extensive suspension of disbelieve rather than let some things "ruin" a Star Wars movie for me.
For example, I'd rather believe that the Empire was over confident and thus slow to react on Scarif. It's believable enough for me, even if you'd expect the largest military force in the galaxy to act like it.

That's not to say there aren't any clear weak spots in the movies, I just don't let them ruin the whole experience for me. And if it's canon, it's canon.

-

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


The rebels being very morally grey.

Plus..everybody dies!

For the first act, yes, but it quickly went back to the status quo.
Everyone dying actually works against the film, as they introduced all of these characters and killed them off before really doing anything without, thus killing (heh) any dramatic impact their deaths was supposed to have. No different from bad horror movie deaths, really.

But exactly in line with most war movies of the Dirty Dozen/Magnificent Seven variety.

 Manchu wrote:


R1 actually makes the Empire dumber than ever. Krennic never realizes the dude whose wife he shot might want revenge. Storm Troopers with guns stand around while Rebels effortlessly engage them piecemeal in H2H combat. Other times, they fail to engage at all. The Rebel fleet jumps into a system guarded by two ISDs, which don't seem to attack and are deployed so poorly that in space the Rebels can push one into another. TIE fighters launch well after the battle begins, mirroring the gawping, cataonic ground officers Krennic is screaming at below.

Yeah, that's another gripe I have about R1; the plot requires idiocy to work. I find it hard to get invested in the protagonist's struggle if their enemies are making blatant mistakes that would normally result in a swift court marshall in the real world. Vader was too lenient with Krennic; the Vader from the old trilogy probably wouldn't stop choking him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:


The rebels being very morally grey.

Plus..everybody dies!

For the first act, yes, but it quickly went back to the status quo.
Everyone dying actually works against the film, as they introduced all of these characters and killed them off before really doing anything without, thus killing (heh) any dramatic impact their deaths was supposed to have. No different from bad horror movie deaths, really.

But exactly in line with most war movies of the Dirty Dozen/Magnificent Seven variety.

Still more character development in those movies though. In R1 they showed the monk for like 3 scenes, just to do a cool action thing or exposition, and then killed him off. I don't even remember the monk or the heavy weapons guy's name. The rest of the fodder had like 1 scene, and I don't think they were even given names.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:


R1 actually makes the Empire dumber than ever. Krennic never realizes the dude whose wife he shot might want revenge. Storm Troopers with guns stand around while Rebels effortlessly engage them piecemeal in H2H combat. Other times, they fail to engage at all. The Rebel fleet jumps into a system guarded by two ISDs, which don't seem to attack and are deployed so poorly that in space the Rebels can push one into another. TIE fighters launch well after the battle begins, mirroring the gawping, cataonic ground officers Krennic is screaming at below.

Yeah, that's another gripe I have about R1; the plot requires idiocy to work. I find it hard to get invested in the protagonist's struggle if their enemies are making blatant mistakes that would normally result in a swift court marshall in the real world. Vader was to lenient with Krennic; the Vader from the old trilogy probably wouldn't stop choking him.

All of Star Wars basically runs on idiocy.

I mean let's talk about Palpatine's little scheme; the guy has complete control of the Republic, basically able to manipulate politics and courts to get his desired outcome at whim, plays the Jedi Order like a fiddle, and is somehow able to completely hide that he's doing any of it simply by throwing on a hood and using a name derived from the word insidious, and he throws away all of that absolute power so that he can what... Reveal himself as an evil overlord to the galaxy? A smart man would never have revealed himself and simply continued running things from the shadows, as absurd as Palpatines ability to manipulate the galaxy became in the prequels.

The Empire as a generic evil empire has always been dumb. Really dumb. I mean the Rebels managed to escape with a single gun that could disable the one and only Star Destroyer positioned to actually stop them from leaving Hoth. Apparently the Empire doesn't know how a blockade works (and forgot that they have Interdictors). Then there was that time the Death Star charged the rebel base, alone and with no fleet support which is really kind of stupid no matter how powerful the Empire thinks their new weapon is. Then there's the whole bit on Endor where Storm Troopers get sent through the ringer by teddie bares with pointy sticks and rocks.

And of course I've pointed out in this thread and elsewhere that the Jedi were really dumb (like super dumb...), and really this universe is less a contest of wills but more a contest of whose plot armor is more secure, and the mechanism for throwing characters out windows by and large is the shadow idiot ball. This strikes me as another case of rose tinted glasses convincing people that something was a lot deeper than it ever really was.

 LordofHats wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Manchu wrote:


R1 actually makes the Empire dumber than ever. Krennic never realizes the dude whose wife he shot might want revenge. Storm Troopers with guns stand around while Rebels effortlessly engage them piecemeal in H2H combat. Other times, they fail to engage at all. The Rebel fleet jumps into a system guarded by two ISDs, which don't seem to attack and are deployed so poorly that in space the Rebels can push one into another. TIE fighters launch well after the battle begins, mirroring the gawping, cataonic ground officers Krennic is screaming at below.

Yeah, that's another gripe I have about R1; the plot requires idiocy to work. I find it hard to get invested in the protagonist's struggle if their enemies are making blatant mistakes that would normally result in a swift court marshall in the real world. Vader was to lenient with Krennic; the Vader from the old trilogy probably wouldn't stop choking him.

All of Star Wars basically runs on idiocy.

I mean let's talk about Palpatine's little scheme; the guy has complete control of the Republic, basically able to manipulate politics and courts to get his desired outcome at whim, plays the Jedi Order like a fiddle, and is somehow able to completely hide that he's doing any of it simply by throwing on a hood and using a name derived from the word insidious, and he throws away all of that absolute power so that he can what... Reveal himself as an evil overlord to the galaxy? A smart man would never have revealed himself and simply continued running things from the shadows, as absurd as Palpatines ability to manipulate the galaxy became in the prequels.

The Empire as a generic evil empire has always been dumb. Really dumb. I mean the Rebels managed to escape with a single gun that could disable the one and only Star Destroyer positioned to actually stop them from leaving Hoth. Apparently the Empire doesn't know how a blockade works (and forgot that they have Interdictors). Then there was that time the Death Star charged the rebel base, alone and with no fleet support which is really kind of stupid no matter how powerful the Empire thinks their new weapon is. Then there's the whole bit on Endor where Storm Troopers get sent through the ringer by teddie bares with pointy sticks and rocks.

And of course I've pointed out in this thread and elsewhere that the Jedi were really dumb (like super dumb...), and really this universe is less a contest of wills but more a contest of whose plot armor is more secure, and the mechanism for throwing characters out windows by and large is the shadow idiot ball. This strikes me as another case of rose tinted glasses convincing people that something was a lot deeper than it ever really was.

Fair enough, but back then it was manageable levels of stupid. R1 had blatant levels of stupidity. They were just too damn high. Like, holy gak, Imperial Security sucks. I bet they use Guest for all of their passwords.

Is there another trailer out?

I’m watching the World Series and walked away during a commercial. Came back just in time to see Rey seemingly standing over Luke with Saber drawn, and Snoke in his throne room talking to some henchmen. Said something about “ Darkness rises, and light comes to meet it” or something to that effect.

Yep, apparently last one :

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/new-star-wars-the-last-jedi-trailer-arrives-watch-/1100-6454576/

@CthuluIsSpy: I'd have to watch Rogue One again honestly but i enjoyed it. I still felt it was far superior to TFA. Everybody felt useful and decent as a character.

I'll admit i found it a bit weird the main baddie in R1 should've killed the main female protagonist's dad maybe but it seemed like he needed that guy at least to benefit off that man's successes and take credit for them and couldn't anybody see that perhaps he may have been incredibly arrogant on the grand scheme of things. Perhaps he didn't care too much about the rebellion except how it could advance his position with the imperials. The imperials under-estimating the rebels isn't a new thing in the series after all and it's not without reason. Of course maybe i'm adding more depth than there was.

R1 had blatant levels of stupidity.

Very true - and all the worse because R1 undertakes a more serious tone, which its plot not only cannot live up to, but actively undermines.

RE: newest trailer - "darkness rises, and light to meet it" ... Snoke turned and trained Kylo in order to trigger the awakening (Rey)???

 Easy E wrote:
At least when I walked out of R!, I felt like I had seen somethign different int eh Star Wars universe that I had not seen before.

TFA I did not feel that way at all. The only part that really felt like a glimpse at something "new" was when the gangsters tried to steal the Falcon (IIRC) in the middle section.

Like many, my carbonite hard love to Star Wars died as soon as liitle orphan Anakin uttered the word "Mitochloridian"

Interesting, because for me I couldn't really care less about seeing something new. Star Wars isn't about new stuff, to me anyway. I mean its fun to have all kinds of crazy peripheral stuff, but in the movies themselves I never got any joy because I was seeing something new. The fun comes from engaging, lovable characters who are caught up in adventures way over their heads. TFA worked because even though the story was an inferior version of ANH, it gave us really fun new characters and some time with the old ones. R1 failed because while the idea of making a WWII resistance type story in the Star Wars world was good, the characters were really, really bad and completely uninteresting, except the reprogrammed Imperial droid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Easy E wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
But what was new in R1, really?

None of the main characters were Jedi. We haven't seen that since..... ESB?

Force sensitive.... sure. Jedi? No.

Plus, we saw the Rebellion actual doing stuff without Han, Luke, and Leia doing it for them. That's pretty new in SW.

Except they also showed the rebellion as complete idiots. I get that after the plans were uncovered they were trying to give the female lead some time as an inspirational character, but to do that they presented the resistance as idiots who first didn't believe that the superweapon they were asked to uncover actually existed, and then as really weird cowards who wanted to give up instead of face the superweapon they didn't believe existed.

I would have liked to have seen a movie that showed the resistance doing actual stuff with Luke & friends. But instead Luke & friends were replaced by new bunch of heroes who did all the work. And at least in the OT there was something of a feeling that the resistance was doing useful stuff off screen, here they were shown to be hopeless idiots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:
If the Death Star blowing up a city counts as "new" then so does Starkiller Bass simultaneously blowing up several systems. These are a matter of degree rather than kind. The same is true of several other examples. As to the Rebellion being morally complex - yes, this was the big promise of R1 ... that was ultimatley unfulfilled. Hence why I said Edwards was pulling one way and Disney the other (with Disney winning).

I'm not sure it was a result of Edwards and Disney battling over the content. Afterall they left in plenty of violence in, including a main character murdering a minor, innocent character. I think the issue was more that they had big ideas for that part of the film and for Forest Whitaker's character, but they just couldn't spend that much time in the city. It felt like a lot got cut in editing, or maybe out of the original draft of the script as they hammered out a story that flowed. I think a steadier hand, either from the director or in overall production, would have seen the problem sooner and found a way to include those elements, probably by cutting out a lot of the more setup.

I agree with your points on the Empire being made more incompetent than ever. As well as the points you make I was surprised at the sheer number of storm troopers that got wasted. There was a couple of scenes where dozens of the hopeless idiots were wiped in mere seconds. As well turning storm trooper incompetence levels up to being almost parody, it just didn't feel very Star Wars at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
But exactly in line with most war movies of the Dirty Dozen/Magnificent Seven variety.

Sure. The challenge is to get the audience to love the characters so their deaths mean something. R1 really dropped the ball there.

 Manchu wrote:
But what was new in R1, really? I think Edwards tried pulling it in that direction but his effort was clearly neutered by executives worried about how it would impact the overarching IP. R1 ended up being a total nostalgia fest, with the main goal of syncing right up to ANH.

The story was new, with a look at elements of the universe and general world-building that hadn't been there before. Several of the places (especially the space station and the plateau city) were interesting in their own right, as was the Rebellion as something other than a picture perfect paragon of nobility and right. That it synced up to the beginning of Star Wars was largely irrelevant (and a bit forced- the end being the weakest part of the film).

----

TFA was just boring, uninteresting characters with no backstory doing laps in a kiddie pool. (Huzzah, a...janitor in a stormtrooper suit finds he's not a very good mass murderer! The pathos! The orphan suddenly finds she's a Mary Sue rather than crippled by a childhood of malnutrition and dangerous scavenging! The ace pilot survives for no apparent reason, and half the audience doesn't even realize it's the same guy! Mopey kid whines and rages! Is it an Oedipus complex? No one knows why!) There was nothing new, revelatory or even vaguely interesting. Rebels kept on resisting against no one, and a bunch of kids were cosplaying in empire gear they found lying around somewhere. That they happened to meet up and fight a bit was something of a coincidence, and that millions of people died in a background shot by a Macguffin was completely irrelevant with a complete lack of emotional impact.

Plus the 'quest' was laughable. The map fragment they had showed dozens of systems- that's more than enough information to pinpoint a system. It might take a computer a couple weeks to do the processing, but getting the 'other half' was completely pointless.

The standard of novelty by which you guys are praising R1 is pretty generous. I mean, if you apply the same standard to The Phantom Menace, uh well, that film also showed us new things and also called into question a previously unproblematic institution (the Jedi). Now, I'm not saying TPM is better than R1 (feth no!) - just that the standard you're using to praise R1 results in giving as much praise to TPM. So you can tell by that, there's something wrong with your standard.

Sebster above makes the most important point of all. TFA had engaging characters, R1 did not. And even if we could hem and haw on everything else, this gap trumps. Maybe the twist is, characterization in TFA really leans on the charismatic performances of the actors. But however a film gets there, it has to do it - and R1 didn't, for a variety of reasons.

I do think Edwards and Kennedy had a little tug of war; or rather, towards release, Kennedy came to the conclusion that her people should have been exerting more control throughout. I am not in the camp, however, that imagines some pre-reshoot masterpiece ruined by Disney.

 Manchu wrote:
The standard of novelty by which you guys are praising R1 is pretty generous. I mean, if you apply the same standard to The Phantom Menace, uh well, that film also showed us new things and also called into question a previously unproblematic institution (the Jedi). Now, I'm not saying TPM is better than R1 (feth no!) - just that the standard you're using to praise R1 results in giving as much praise to TPM. So you can tell by that, there's something wrong with your standard.

Sebster above makes the most important point of all. TFA had engaging characters, R1 did not. And even if we could hem and haw on everything else, this gap trumps. Maybe the twist is, characterization in TFA really leans on the charismatic performances of the actors. But however a film gets there, it has to do it - and R1 didn't, for a variety of reasons.

I do think Edwards and Kennedy had a little tug of war; or rather, towards release, Kennedy came to the conclusion that her people should have been exerting more control throughout. I am not in the camp, however, that imagines some pre-reshoot masterpiece ruined by Disney.

Sebster's is one opinion. I found the R1 characters more appealing and human. The new TFA characters, particularly the bad guy's, were a snore. Who thought making your bad guy just be an emotional jerk is a good idea? I had enough of that with Anakin "need some cheese with your whine?" Skywalker.

Funny you draw that comparison - I thought about it more as a contrast: I think Kylo Ren is Anakin done right.