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 Manchu wrote:
How about the fact that the space battle happens to be over the planet where Luke Skywalker lives?

Anyhow, the power of coincidence isn't really one of TLJ's weaknesses.

That was no coincidence.

Vader was hot on the heels of Tantive IV, and so Leia was trying to get the Death Star Plans to Obi Wan Kenobi. She probably ordered Tantive IV to plot a course for Tatooine. And of course, Kenobi was on Tatooine watching over Skywalker.

Good point - I never figured she would go straight to Kenobi. TBH I never considered that she even knew where he was hiding out. But I guess her dad knew.

She was desperate, and knew that the Tantive IV was going to be boarded.

Huh, I never considered that either. Makes a ton of sense! I learned something from this thread

Ha!

I'm learning a LOT of things from this thread!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


Holdo..... so that the film could...Subvert. Your. Expectations!

My expectations were not subverted. In fact, the beats of the movie drew straight from what I know about disney director decisions.

* I knew Holdo would be right about everything and make Poe look an idiot when she made her "we don't need men speech" purple hair and everything. After Poe laid himself at her feet and was visually impressed with her prior (offscreen) accomplishments.

* I knew Rose would teach Finn... whatever it was he was supposed to learn this movie. [This bit was actually well mapped out: Rose already knows the evils of the upper elite, but when she saved the animal she realized freeing the oppressed was worth doing, and burning to rich to the ground didn't accomplish that. Somehow that got turned into "don't get yourself killed attacking a FO gun" in the same movie as two acceptable literal self sacrifices... anyway]

* I knew Rey would finish with her guards first and help Kylo (yes, yes, he dealt with more.)


So, my expectations were in fact dulled. I mean, come on, it's standard stuff. Women don't lose hand fights with men. The only one who could take down Black Widow in Civil War was Scarlet Witch.

So, my expectations were in fact dulled. I mean, come on, it's standard stuff. Women don't lose hand fights with men. The only one who could take down Black Widow in Civil War was Scarlet Witch.

Phasma did.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So, my expectations were in fact dulled. I mean, come on, it's standard stuff. Women don't lose hand fights with men. The only one who could take down Black Widow in Civil War was Scarlet Witch.

Phasma did.

Finn is also an ethnic minority.

I have seen a lot of people jump to defend this film based on the fact that men are scared of powerful women. Yet, as has been pointed out, a bad film is a bad film, regardless of sex.

Interesting world we live in.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

So, my expectations were in fact dulled. I mean, come on, it's standard stuff. Women don't lose hand fights with men. The only one who could take down Black Widow in Civil War was Scarlet Witch.

Phasma did.

Point.


I saw her clobber him and then get sucker punched after the fact but yeah, that counts.

I don't mind poweful women.
I mind poorly written women.

My problem with LJ is that I saw it in 3d which was pretty awesome except for the scenes with Holdo's right hand bridge lackey Commander D'Acy. Her nose was absolutely giant and every time she was on screen I was afraid I was going to lose an eye by having it pecked out. Forget epic shots of star destroyers reaching right out of the screen, instead you're dodging a giant schnoz coming at your face.


Sloth from The Goonies apparently grew up to be a SIthlord calling himself Snoke.

 Manchu wrote:
Good point - I never figured she would go straight to Kenobi. TBH I never considered that she even knew where he was hiding out. But I guess her dad knew.

This was specifically the mission given to her in Rogue One, if that's any help. - Bail Organa talks about it.

Finally seen the movie. Overall I didn't like it, there were positives. Oh, was there anything even remotely metaphorical with Rey's visit to the cave? I try to wrap my head around it but nothing clicks.

 Knight wrote:
Finally seen the movie. Overall I didn't like it, there were positives. Oh, was there anything even remotely metaphorical with Rey's visit to the cave? I try to wrap my head around it but nothing clicks.

Luke went to a cave, and was faced with his own reflection. Therefor...

Is there anything original about this movie?

 Knight wrote:
Finally seen the movie. Overall I didn't like it, there were positives. Oh, was there anything even remotely metaphorical with Rey's visit to the cave? I try to wrap my head around it but nothing clicks.

Well, when Luke visited the dark side grove on Dagobah he was faced with his greatest fears, Vader as the representation of evil in Luke's own mind and the possibility of him becoming that evil (his face in Vaders mask).

When Rey visits the dark hole she faces her greatest fear, that her parents are nobody and that she is nobody. The mirror not giving her answers about her family is because she fears there are none to give, they are nobody.

However, remember that this is the Dark Side manipulating your fears and bearing them before you, as giving in to fear is the first step down the dark path, so the visions may not be true. The dark side lures you in with promises of answers and uses the pursuit of those answers to snare you.

It snared Anakin in his pursuit of an answer to how to save Padme, it snared the Palpatine in his pursuit of an answer to become immortal etc. Note that none of them ever actually achieved those goals, none of them got the answers they sought.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is there anything original about this movie?

Quite a lot, yes. But, again, the re-occurence of the same tropes is a staple of Star Wars story-telling.

Well...I'd prefer it if this sequel trilogy established some new tropes.

I watched "The Force Awakens" again early and the distinct possibility that Rey's parents WERE nobody was essentially signposted by Maz.

Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But... there's someone who still could.

The belonging you seek is not behind you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it.

So, yeah, to me personally, "Rey comes from nowhere" IS a suitable answer to that question and is ultimately the realisation that she needed to accept. I'm completely fine with that.

 Compel wrote:
I watched "The Force Awakens" again early and the distinct possibility that Rey's parents WERE nobody was essentially signposted by Maz.

Dear child. I see your eyes. You already know the truth. Whomever you're waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But... there's someone who still could.

The belonging you seek is not behind you. It is ahead. I am no Jedi, but I know the Force. It moves through and surrounds every living thing. Close your eyes. Feel it.

So, yeah, to me personally, "Rey comes from nowhere" IS a suitable answer to that question and is ultimately the realisation that she needed to accept. I'm completely fine with that.

It's also worth pointing out that Anakin came from nowhere. There was no super strong Skywalker line of Jedi before him. He was born to a slave on Tatooine.

People keep claiming that after moaning about TFA being a rehashed New Hope, now we are bitching that TLJ brought too much new stuff and wasn't ENOUGH like the original trilogy.

Sorry, you can break new ground and still feel like Star Wars. It's why the great parts of the EU, like the original Thrawn trilogy, and all the X-Wing Rogue Squadron novels, are so awesome. Would have been a helluva thing to have a Star Wars movie with Wedge and Thrawn.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People keep claiming that after moaning about TFA being a rehashed New Hope, now we are bitching that TLJ brought too much new stuff and wasn't ENOUGH like the original trilogy.

Sorry, you can break new ground and still feel like Star Wars. It's why the great parts of the EU, like the original Thrawn trilogy, and all the X-Wing Rogue Squadron novels, are so awesome. Would have been a helluva thing to have a Star Wars movie with Wedge and Thrawn.

What? TLJ felt like a mashup of ESB and ROTJ to me.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:


We didn't need rose at all though, she's the nobody character that made things much worse for the resistance with a meaningless side plot.

You're being unfair here. Every character made things worse for the resistance.* Rose at least gave us the perspective of the actual nobodies the FO was grinding under foot. And really, a nobody like Rose trying to sneak onto Snoke's ship and disable the macguffin to save her friends is far more heroic in terms of personal bravery than anything Poe did. I get that you don't like her character or the actress, but that doesn't mean she didn't play an important part in the film...well, as much as anyone who isn't Luke, Rey or Ren.

*Except for BB-8, the real hero of the resistance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Star Wars is not about Box Office. It was never about Box Office. The only reason BO is important is because it predicts the fortunes of the massive merchandising empire. Right now, the prediction is looking more dire than expected.

Your imagination is running away with you. Just because I find the role meaningless does not equate to me hating the actress. I'm sure the actress did the best she could with the crap she was given, anyone in that roll would have come across as meaningless and a waste of run time on the movie. The whole casino scene just came across as they needed something for finn to do in the movie, I don't hate finn or the actor either, but horrible writing and a horrid script did nothing for either character to the point they might as well not have been in the movie at all.

Did I mention you hating the actress? Or justify the casino?

I was stating that the character served a purpose. Maybe not a purpose you find great, but a purpose. The casino scene was just....like, I think I get many of the reasons it seemed like a good idea, but man, cut it out of the film when you see it doesn't work. Or reshoot it as something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Compel wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Good point - I never figured she would go straight to Kenobi. TBH I never considered that she even knew where he was hiding out. But I guess her dad knew.

This was specifically the mission given to her in Rogue One, if that's any help. - Bail Organa talks about it.

Her recording pretty much laid it out in Star Wars. (Not calling it ANH.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
People keep claiming that after moaning about TFA being a rehashed New Hope, now we are bitching that TLJ brought too much new stuff and wasn't ENOUGH like the original trilogy.

Sorry, you can break new ground and still feel like Star Wars. It's why the great parts of the EU, like the original Thrawn trilogy, and all the X-Wing Rogue Squadron novels, are so awesome. Would have been a helluva thing to have a Star Wars movie with Wedge and Thrawn.

1). Are you sure these are the same people?

2). Are you aware that being a rehash of Star Wars is the least of TFA's many, many sins?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did I mention you hating the actress?

Yes.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I get that you don't like her character or the actress

 insaniak wrote:

Quite a lot, yes. But, again, the re-occurence of the same tropes is a staple of Star Wars story-telling.

Didn't Abrams outright state that about TFA?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Did I mention you hating the actress?

Yes.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I get that you don't like her character or the actress

Huh. I forgot I wrote that. My apologies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
For starters - when you make a new character because you want to include a more diverse cast rather than because you had a good idea for a character in the first place - the character is going to suffer. Rose is a great example of this. She is created simply to include an Asian.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. Aside from the fact that people have told you why Rose exists, even if you don't love the idea yourself, what evidence is there for the theory that any of the cast exists just for the sake of diversity? Would the character be somehow different if they were a white man instead? Is there some reason why the creator would make that particular character an Asian instead of some other character? Your entire reason for this belief seems to be "she's an Asian character I don't like", which is absurd.

When the entire command structure of the resistance is composed of only females it hurts believability.

So I take it you couldn't believe the very male-dominated command structure of the rebellion in the OT?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Knight wrote:
Finally seen the movie. Overall I didn't like it, there were positives. Oh, was there anything even remotely metaphorical with Rey's visit to the cave? I try to wrap my head around it but nothing clicks.

When Rey visits the dark hole she faces her greatest fear, that her parents are nobody and that she is nobody. The mirror not giving her answers about her family is because she fears there are none to give, they are nobody.

Odd that she exclaimed that she was not afraid only few moments before that. Perhaps I was only foolish to believe it to be true? I do think the thoughts and emotions of her birth are the cause of her suffering and feeling detached from the world (to certain extend this should correlate with openness to the Force, but what do I know). It's something I hope they will expand in the future. "The poor little me that is foreign and alone to this world" needs a resolution.

Yodas bump on Lukes head was 30 years to late.

 Knight wrote:
Odd that she exclaimed that she was not afraid only few moments before that. Perhaps I was only foolish to believe it to be true?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/whistle_in_the_dark

 Xenomancers wrote:
When the entire command structure of the resistance is composed of only females it hurts believability. .

Ignoring for a moment that you seem to have already forgotten poor Ackbar... Why?

Exactly how many women in a position of authority would be a believable number for you?