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Martel732 wrote:
Your proposal is far too weak. It's not asking too much that Orks foil SOME factions' special (free) ability.

People can't change their faction mid-tournament, unless you know something I don't.

They're going to BE getting free abilities in the their codex.

Martel732 wrote:
Capping at only 6+ kills Ork shooting atm.

Ork shooting is already dead. It doesn't matter if they hit on 5+ or 6+. The problems with ork shooting aren't "to hit" modifieres. Even agaisn't a army without any kind of "-1 to hit" bonus, ork shooting is totally useless.

Martel732 wrote:
Capping at only 6+ kills Ork shooting atm.

It gives Orks/other armies a chance to hit while still giving an opposing army an opportunity to use a special rule/ability.... It is fair.... It may hinder (not completely destroy) one aspect of your army (shooting) but you also have a major other if not more important strength.... Close combat. Cap shooting at 6+ its fair and balanced. Everyone wins.

NOTE: Im not a SM or Eldar player (anymore) I play guard. I feel like I have to put that in this thread.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.

I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.

Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.

Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.

Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.

As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.

Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.

I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.

Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.

Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.

Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.

As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.

Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?

Dude there’s other armies that put modifiers on shooting then just SM. There’s no reason and no medium ground in this thread I’m out, this thread is getting out of hand. It turned into a poor me thread.

Yes I've noticed, he mentioned a few through the traits though I know there's several as a result of stratagems and the like.

Make it a Bad Moon trait then instead of an armywide thing then if it'll satisfy people or a stratagem that can work factionwide for Ork models only.

Ork Warband Trait:

- Orks within 12" are -1 to shoot at. Because a horde of Orks are scary when they're foot away from you.

I'm ok with modifiers, I don't think orks should hit on 5s and 6s regardless of modifiers.

I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted. Let us bring more stuff, IMHO it's the only way to make them viable, other than bringing the green tide.

Orks are supposed to be an horde army. Currently you can only spam boyz or grots which means they're not an horde army.

 Blackie wrote:
I'm ok with modifiers, I don't think orks should hit on 5s and 6s regardless of modifiers.

I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted. Let us bring more stuff, IMHO it's the only way to make them viable, other than bringing the green tide.

Orks are supposed to be an horde army. Currently you can only spam boyz or grots which means they're not an horde army.

How much more stuff? Let's take a loota trying to shoot down something with -1 to hit. Let's say it's something multi-wounded with 3+ armor and t4-6. Loota will inflict 0.22 wounds on average. For example, a havok will inflict 0.66 wounds - that's 3 times more. Havok costs twice as much as a loota but is 4 times as durable (when in cover). So, to make them 'even' when shooting at something with -1 to-hit, a loota must cost ~57% of it's original cost. That's 9-10 pts. And that's to just make a loota as effective as a csm autocannon havok which is quite a mediocre unit to begin with. Should an autocannon cost 3-4 pts for orks to make it even? But than if they're shooting at something without a -1 to-hit modifier, the ork shoots only twice as bad as a havok point-for-point. And should now cost ~67% of it's original cost. That's 11-12 pts.

So...9-10 or 11-12? Or 0 pts if we're shooting at -2 to-hit stuff?

What if we start counting in morale issues that lootas have? Or their better improving durability vs low ap attacks. It's all impossible to price correctly with this d6 system. Besides, i wouldn't like to get a ton of orks on board as that's pretty tiresome to paint. I'd pretty much like the loota to simply be better. Get a 4+ or 5+ armor save, get d3+1 shots and bs4. Now that'd probably be worth 17 ppm. And that's much better than 10 ppm lootas.

 Galas wrote:
And to be honest I don't understand the reasong behind "Ork shooting sucks because our weapons are bad and overpriced compared with armies with better BS and weapons. So the way to fix it is making we always hit on a 5+ instead of making our weapons cheaper and better"

What's the point of S16 AP-5 weapons with 6 damage if they can't hit our enemies?
Ork weapons have always been inferior to the Imperiums weapons, that's part of their identity. There have been plenty of times where the weapon profiles have not been a problem when they were costed properly. You can't do a thing about not being able to hit at all though.

But I get it guys, your codex sucks, and you just want anything to be competitive. As a Tau that doesn't spam Commanders and Drones, I can understand you. But one needs to be reasonable and fix the real problems of the army, not random ones.
I could say that Tau should always hit on 4+ because, they already hit on 4+ most of the time and Tau aren't shooting out people off the table with their Broadsides, Firewarriors and Hammerheads? No? That could fix and balance them... or not. It will not, because their problems are about rules and costs, not about hitting on 4+, or 5+ agaisn't some armies.

The problem is, either ork shooting is balanced against normal armies, then all shooting are useless against armies with -1 hit modifiers because basically lose 50% of it. Or we are balanced against armies with -1 hit modifiers, then we are twice as good against any army that doesn't have such modifiers, which will probably result in orks blowing everything but raven guard, alaitoc and similar armies off the table.
You cannot balance -50% to shooting (actually even more) as free army wide debuff, so you need to take it out of the equation.

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm sorry but this absurd victimization needs to stop if we want to have a honest discussion. Is worse than calling everybody that complained about Conscripts a Space Marines fanboy when many people wheren't. Theres reasons to arguee about a fixed +5 to hit roll being a bad solution. I don't have seen nobody saying "Oh yeah no, Orks shouldn't hit on a 5+, and they shouldn't receive other buffs and fixes, they just need to suck"

So, tell me. How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that the cannot shoot? How do you plan on balancing a rule that turns 2000 points of ork shooting into 1000 points of ork shooting?
Army-wide -1 to hit will not go away, so orks need a way to combat that, because they suffer by far the most from it.

usmcmidn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Capping at only 6+ kills Ork shooting atm.

It gives Orks/other armies a chance to hit while still giving an opposing army an opportunity to use a special rule/ability.... It is fair.... It may hinder (not completely destroy) one aspect of your army (shooting) but you also have a major other if not more important strength.... Close combat. Cap shooting at 6+ its fair and balanced. Everyone wins.

NOTE: Im not a SM or Eldar player (anymore) I play guard. I feel like I have to put that in this thread.

It does destroy ork shooting though. -1 to hit also means all ork shooting is half as effective. If orks are properly balanced against armies without permanent -1 to hit, they will be utterly useless against those with it and vice versa.
In terms of guard, imagine if deff skullz got the clan rule to just remove half your tanks and artillery models from the table (they are good at stealing stuff). But hey, you still got guardsmen and heavy weapon teams, am I right?

For orks, the raven guard (and other similar traits) are exactly the same as:
"Whenever one of your units is hit, roll a dice. On a 4+ that hit deals no damage. In addition, your units cannot be targeted by assault weapons that have advanced or heavy weapons that have moved. Your Flyers may never be chosen as targets for shooting."
Add-on for eldar:
"Wave serpents or vypers that have advanced last turn cannot be chosen as targets for shooting. Rangers may never be chosen as targets for shooting."

Does that still sound fair? Does that just hinder guard, SM or eldar shooting, or does it destroy it? At least that rule would screw everyone the same.

I read a few pages back that Orks were shooty in second edition.
I read that every so often in these kinds of threads. I think it would be worth the time to explain what it was about them that made them shooty and compare it to now.

as far as I can recall Orks were BS3. There were many negative modifiers to shooting in 2nd. And other things.
If I recall several weapons had +1 to hit or even +2 to hit at half range which isn't something we have not days. Bolters for example had a bonus to hit as did some pistols.
These were more or less blanket rules.
At range though where was the Ork shooting?
Artillery, SAG and Warbikers come to mind as do Lootas( Can't recall their proppa name) Who had Kustom Kombi weapons that didn't roll to hit but had random strength and damage effects, I may be off on that a little.
What else? I know I am not mentioning a good bit, because I can't remember. Is that really so different then now?
We have artillery and some weapons that's don't roll to hit. We have volume of fire. (Most of that has really short range.)
We took a hit by 8th edition dropping blast markers. but we gained flamer weapons hitting flyers. Grots still operative the artillery which no longer has a chance to explode when being used.
I guess my question is just how directly effected are we, as Orks, by -1 or -2 to hit armies? Just how prevalent are they.
I've said before that artillery and burnas are my go too's. I'm sticking with that so my boys can focus on what they do best right now, chopp things up! That said Shoota boys do have a place in my army. Mostly they haven't done too terribly much just yet but hold objectives or pick on small/wounded enemy units before I send in my killers. Honestly if I could have just one thing back it would be autto guns on my grots. I need BS4+ at 24" range threat bubbles. (That and I have 60 or more of those old grots!)

Orks have been shooty as well as choppy in just about every edition.

 Jidmah wrote:
How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that they cannot shoot?

They don't.

 Blackie wrote:
I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted.

How much should something cost if it's not going to be used because the rules are such that it cannot be used?

If a big shoota can never hit (and therefor effectively is a weapon with zero shots, no strength, and no damage), what's a fair price for it? 20 points? 15? 10? 5? Free? Or perhaps negative points, letting Orks take more choppas in exchange for their shooting being useless?

It is patently ridiculous, patently STUPID, that a lasgun has a chance to hurt a titan, yet the much deadlier Shoota has no chance of hurting a pansy eldar. It's just flat out dumb and bad game design, and yet bad game design is what we have to work with. Thus, the suggestion of "Orks always hit on a natural 6", which is how it should have been all along, except GW keeps carelessly tossing out tons and tons of to-hit modifiers, some of which get to patently ridiculous levels (necrons and chaos and eldar, notably).

It's just fething ridiculous that GW's half-assed game design decisions have lead us to this situation.

Ok Jidmah, Ignore how I have said that there should be a rule that every 6 is a automatic hit.

And yes Melissia, nobody want to fix orks. You should change your sing, you know? You are one of the persons with less good faith and honesty in a discussion that I have seen in this forum.

I'm out.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.

I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.

Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.

Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.

Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.

As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.

Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?

1. Don't move with heavy weapons then. Super simple. I still don't move with them most of the time.
2. Everything has high cost because all the index armies are bizarrely priced. You guys keep complaining about this when the codex hasn't even been released yet...
3. Forewarned is a Psyker power or Strategem, and not an innate ability. Stupid comparison is stupid.
4. I'd absolutely be fine with that being a Strategem or Klan trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Orks have been shooty as well as choppy in just about every edition.

 Jidmah wrote:
How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that they cannot shoot?

They don't.

 Blackie wrote:
I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted.

How much should something cost if it's not going to be used because the rules are such that it cannot be used?

If a big shoota can never hit (and therefor effectively is a weapon with zero shots, no strength, and no damage), what's a fair price for it? 20 points? 15? 10? 5? Free? Or perhaps negative points, letting Orks take more choppas in exchange for their shooting being useless?

It is patently ridiculous, patently STUPID, that a lasgun has a chance to hurt a titan, yet the much deadlier Shoota has no chance of hurting a pansy eldar. It's just flat out dumb and bad game design, and yet bad game design is what we have to work with. Thus, the suggestion of "Orks always hit on a natural 6", which is how it should have been all along, except GW keeps carelessly tossing out tons and tons of to-hit modifiers, some of which get to patently ridiculous levels (necrons and chaos and eldar, notably).

It's just fething ridiculous that GW's half-assed game design decisions have lead us to this situation.

Yes because you're going to be facing so many -2 To Hit armies. Oh wait...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:
Ork Warband Trait:

- Orks within 12" are -1 to shoot at. Because a horde of Orks are scary when they're foot away from you.

Now THAT is something I can get behind.

 warhead01 wrote:
I read a few pages back that Orks were shooty in second edition.
I read that every so often in these kinds of threads. I think it would be worth the time to explain what it was about them that made them shooty and compare it to now.

as far as I can recall Orks were BS3. There were many negative modifiers to shooting in 2nd. And other things.
If I recall several weapons had +1 to hit or even +2 to hit at half range which isn't something we have not days. Bolters for example had a bonus to hit as did some pistols.
These were more or less blanket rules.
At range though where was the Ork shooting?
Artillery, SAG and Warbikers come to mind as do Lootas( Can't recall their proppa name) Who had Kustom Kombi weapons that didn't roll to hit but had random strength and damage effects, I may be off on that a little.
What else? I know I am not mentioning a good bit, because I can't remember. Is that really so different then now?
We have artillery and some weapons that's don't roll to hit. We have volume of fire. (Most of that has really short range.)
We took a hit by 8th edition dropping blast markers. but we gained flamer weapons hitting flyers. Grots still operative the artillery which no longer has a chance to explode when being used.
I guess my question is just how directly effected are we, as Orks, by -1 or -2 to hit armies? Just how prevalent are they.
I've said before that artillery and burnas are my go too's. I'm sticking with that so my boys can focus on what they do best right now, chopp things up! That said Shoota boys do have a place in my army. Mostly they haven't done too terribly much just yet but hold objectives or pick on small/wounded enemy units before I send in my killers. Honestly if I could have just one thing back it would be autto guns on my grots. I need BS4+ at 24" range threat bubbles. (That and I have 60 or more of those old grots!)

Orks were probably the most powerful army in 2nd edition to be honest, easily the most powerful army I played in that edition (Chaos, Ravenwing, Orks in that edition).

They had:
1) Pulsa Rokkits were absurdly overpowered ridiculous rules-breaking monsters.
2) Looted vehicles with squig fuel injectors were amazing.
3) Flamer rules were stupid, basically, if you weren't wearing Terminator armor and got set on fire you ran around like an idiot until you rolled a 1 for the fire to go out.
4) Nobz were BS 3 at least, if not 4 and could get targeters on their Mega-Armor IIRC.
5) Orks counted as strategy rating 6 for the purposes of going first, they went first a lot.

My army in that edition was basically:
6 Pulsa Rokkits
1 squad of Gretchin to screen everything.
1 looted Hellhound with a squig fuel injector (this basically got it across the table and setting things on fire in the first turn)
3 Wartracks with Burnas (heavy flamers), I don't think they needed squig fuel injectors to get across and set folks on fire.
1 Big squad of nobz in mega-armor with heavy weapons (which back then were imperial style lascannons, missile launchers, and heavy bolters) hitting on a 2+ IIRC.

This army has been dead and impossible for a long time. However, it was beautifully broken for awhile, knock the opponent down with Pulsa Rokkits, light them on fire with flamers, watch them run around trying to put flames out while you shot them with nobz.

In short, yes, Orks in 2nd were *radically* different than they are now, on so many levels it's difficult to list them all.

I regularly face stygies dragoons. Cannot even shoot at them yhen they reach your lines with 3 attacks each, with a 1 point steategm transforming 15 attacks into about 30 wounding on 2's. Doea it seem fair not to be able to shoot something like that?

Edit: i should clarify, 15 attacks become 30 hits, wounding on 2's.

pismakron wrote:


Both the morkanaut and the gorkanaut are close-combat oriented with very little shooting to speak of. And of the two the morkanaut is by far the worse option. And lootas are just not competitive right now. They are too fragile on foot and too expensive in a transport/bunker. But none of this has anything to do with negative hit-modifiers.

Our best shooting units are Kans, min-squad warbikers and shoota-boyz. Tankbustas are great also, but only in a mechanized or squig list.

You forgot KMKs. In my opinion, by far the best high strength ranged option in the ork codex, bar none. More shots with better AP than kans, more wounds, better range, and cheaper.

On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.

It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.

Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.

fe40k wrote:
On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.

It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.

Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.

Very true. How does the poor tankbusta to know that the riptide and the dreadknight are NOT vehicles, so they shouldn't try shooting twice? Who told him?

fe40k wrote:
On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.

It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.

Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.

I completely agree with this.

I think some of the disagreement when it comes to Orks ignoring to-hit modifiers might be due to assumptions about what else is going to be done to fix Ork shooting. Right now Ork shooting doesn't just have one problem, but a number of problems IMO. I don't think that a fixed 5+ would break the game as it is right now, but I'd rather GW try to fix Ork shooting in a number of other ways and make a change to the core rules that natural 6s always hit.

A big problem is that many shooty Ork units and/or ranged weapons are overcosted.

There's also a problem where these expensive Ork units tend to be squishy and protecting them is more difficult and/or more expensive than it used to be in the past. Cover isn't as good and is harder to get. Trukks and Battlewagons are better protection than they used to be due to vehicles changes and the newest Mob Rule not causing our units to kill themselves when the vehicle is destroyed. On the other hand they are so expensive that it is a pretty scary points investment to throw an expensive unit inside of them. A Battle Wagon full of Flash Gitz, Lootas or Tank Bustas is often ~500 points. (Also, Big Gunz are more squishy than they used to be.)

To-hit penalties are a problem, both ones that are built-in to enemies (Alpha Legion, Storm Ravens, etc.) and also ones that Orks suffer from moving/advancing and shooting. Many Ork shooting options are short-ranged, and those that are Heavy (Snazzguns, Grotzookas) suffer quite a bit from having to move so much to get into range. Shootas and Big Shootas don't seem too bad on Shoota Boyz, but more often that not it seems like they are still way better at Close Combat and if they are Advancing towards the enemy as fast as possible they get shot to ribbons. Once they start getting a -1 from Advancing Shootas and Big Shootas lose most of their appeal.

There are also a lot of things that I think have changed with the new edition (understatement) that GW hasn't fully addressed with the Ork Index (probably all the Indices, not just Orks). A lot of things that used to make Ork shooting good in previous editions were changed and while they don't exactly penalize Orks they went from rules that penalized Orks the least to rules that helped Orks the least. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I'm talking about things other people have mentioned like the change to Twin-Linked barely helping the Orks while massively helping others, and snap-firing changing from a fixed 6+ to hit to a -1 was mostly no change for Orks but a big change for high BS armies. I don't think these changes are necessarily bad, I just think Ork's rules and points values haven't yet changed to truly match the current edition. Some units also just put out a sad amount of dakka under the new rules (SAG, Stompa, etc.) but I also chalk that up to the Indices being get-us-by rush jobs that weren't supposed to be perfect. Hopefully all of this will get fixed between the Codex and Chapter Approved.

 techsoldaten wrote:
How hard is it to fill out an Ork Brigade detachment with the proper elites / fast attack / heavy weapons?

Asking because GW will likely see Stratagems as a way of solving the problem of Ork shooting. Will not be very useful unless you can get enough command points to make it work.

Making an Ork Brigade is pretty easy if you're going for a mostly footslogging Green Tide type of list.

I'm pretty optimistic for the Codex*. I think that Stratagems will probably play a part in fixing Ork shooting, but as we've seen with the Eldar Codex I think a lot of Ork units and weapons will see a significant cost reduction. I also think that it is entirely possible that we will see Clan-specific rules and Warlord Traits that buff shooting. Finally, I wouldn't be surprised to see tweaks to some weapons and units to make them more viable (although I think it will take more than Grinding Advance to fix the Killkannon).

For example, maybe Bad Moons detachments will get a rule that they can move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty and Advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalty. That would make Flash Gitz** and Shoota Boyz a lot better. Maybe the Bad Moons warlord trait will be that all Bad Moons units within 6" can add +1 to their to-hit rolls. That would really help out a Warboss advancing with Shoota Boyz or a KFF Big Mek hanging back with Kustom Mega Kannons.

*I'm also scared that they're going to cut a lot of fun Ork stuff.
**I know Flash Gitz don't have a Clan keyword. I hope this is something they change with the Codex. I know Flash Gitz often forsake their clans and become Freebootas, but they're also supposed to be one of the common Bad Moon units and if they get cut off from all Clan-specific benefits that seems like it could be bad.

There are a ton of minor fixes in terms of points changes, stratagems and unit profile tweaks that could do a lot to help Ork shooting. Too many to list easily.

There are no good answers.

Doing nothing screws over the orks, dropping them to absolute bottom tier.

Orks Ignoring the rule eliminates the opponent's army / chapter trait. Bad luck for that opponent who drew 2 ork armies in the tournament.

creating a 6+ limit means the orks are still screwed over (losing 50% of the most important phase in the game is VERY bad.)

If the orks are compensated for losing half of their shooting, by either doubling their shots or cutting their points to silly amounts, then NON "-1 to hit" armies will be tabled by orks (suddenly 2000 points of ork shooting becomes 4000.)

There are no good answers.

The only fix is for GW to delete all of those -1 to hit rules, replacing them with something else. This makes them look like utter incompetent arrseholes.

There are no good answers.

Some of our most shooty units should just be bs4. Gits are bs4 with heavy weapons. Granted they're still quite underwhelming cause they're like 40-50% overpriced, bs4 orks are still a thing. Dakkajets are bs4 if they shoot one target. Grot gunners are all bs4. I don't mind regular orks to be bs5. Suits them well for points. But dedicated shooty stuff should shoot better. And it's better done with slightly better bs than slightly larger bucket of dice when you also consider to-hit modifiers and time consumption.

JimOnMars while I don't think any one answer taken to the extreme is a good answer, I do think that more moderate implementations of several answers at once would work.

I think that most Ork shooting units could some buffs or point reductions, just not stupid powerful buffs or point reductions to silly levels. I think that could be done without creating an invincible Ork gunline that tables everything that doesn't have a -1 to hit.

I also think it would be a good idea to have a rule that natural 6s always hit. That would make it so units could always interact, and it would do so without completing nullifying an army's Chapter Tactics or equivalent.

I would guess that both of those things together would combine to make it so that Ork shooting that is relatively balanced but also never irrelevant against certain armies.

Of course GW has to do something, and I don't think they'll just leave the issue entirely unaddressed, but we will probably have to wait for our codex to see any significant change.

 koooaei wrote:
Some of our most shooty units should just be bs4. Gits are bs4 with heavy weapons. Granted they're still quite underwhelming cause they're like 40-50% overpriced, bs4 orks are still a thing. Dakkajets are bs4 if they shoot one target. Grot gunners are all bs4. I don't mind regular orks to be bs5. Suits them well for points. But dedicated shooty stuff should shoot better. And it's better done with slightly better bs than slightly larger bucket of dice when you also consider to-hit modifiers and time consumption.

I do think that unit tweaks, including possibly making some units BS 4+, could be a good idea.

I've been thinking recently that it would be fluffy to say that fighting while strapped into a giant gun carriage is difficult, and GW could give Lootas -1 Attack and make them WS 4+ to signify that. That would give them further reason to drop the cost of Lootas and not put them in a weird position where they're supposed to be a shooting unit but theoretically they can beat up Guardsmen in melee and therefore there is an expectation that they pay for that ability.

 koooaei wrote:


I'd pretty much like the loota to simply be better. Get a 4+ or 5+ armor save, get d3+1 shots and bs4. Now that'd probably be worth 17 ppm. And that's much better than 10 ppm lootas.

But that would be a SM profile. Orks models with 1W should always have 6+ save and bs5+ IMHO. Bad aim and bad saves are part of the orks' DNA.

I'd like lootas with D6 shots each and 10-12 ppm.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Yes because you're going to be facing so many -2 To Hit armies.

I agree. How many armies can invalidate orks' shooting completely? A fixed bs6+ can be very useful against those but in the other games? Even without any modifiers orks shooting is extremely lackluster, I would accept if a few armies have the tricks to invalidate orks' shooting, but that's not how you usually face. I'd like orks shooting to be decent instead, not particularly impressive but still something that can be considered when making the lists. Then if 2-3 armies can invalidate our shooting amen, we'll play choppy against them.

 JimOnMars wrote:
There are no good answers.

Doing nothing screws over the orks, dropping them to absolute bottom tier.

Orks Ignoring the rule eliminates the opponent's army / chapter trait. Bad luck for that opponent who drew 2 ork armies in the tournament.

creating a 6+ limit means the orks are still screwed over (losing 50% of the most important phase in the game is VERY bad.)

If the orks are compensated for losing half of their shooting, by either doubling their shots or cutting their points to silly amounts, then NON "-1 to hit" armies will be tabled by orks (suddenly 2000 points of ork shooting becomes 4000.)

There are no good answers.

The only fix is for GW to delete all of those -1 to hit rules, replacing them with something else. This makes them look like utter incompetent arrseholes.

There are no good answers.

I just disagree with that. I think there are many good answers:

1) The damage output of many Ork shooting units are fine. They are just way too fragile for the cost (17-27 points per model with a 6+ save). This problem is not caused by negative hit-modifiers, and meddling about with hit-modifiers will do nothing to fix that.

2) Another related problem is that some of our shooting units needs to be moving about in a transport because of 1), but they cannot hit anything when doing so because of their Heavy weapon profile. Giving Flashgitz and Lootas an assault profile instead would solve a lot of problems, and would not be overpowered in any way.

3) Solving the fragility isuue is realtively straightforward: Let deffguns, burnas, rokkits and big shootas be weapon upgrades to a unit with an ordinary shoota-boy profile. Then you could either take some ablative wounds or put them all in a trukk. The same could be done with Flashgitz. Make them base 17 points with a 4+ save, and make the snazzgun a 8-10 point upgrade. We know that Nobz with ammo runts has at least acceptable durability, and that Flash Gits has somewhat acceptable shooting damage output.

4) A simple (and warranted) point reduction for Big Shootas and Rokkits to 4 and 8 points (down from 6 and 12) would help further, and so would letting the twin option cost 2x the single option (rather than costing a premium).

5) If you could take a special weapon for every 5 boyz rather than for every 10, then shootaboyz would suddenly become half-decent shooting units with some flexibility.

6) I fail to see why some here think that Orks are hurt this much by negative hit-modifiers? We are perhaps the faction that can tolerate negative hit-modfiers best of all. Think about what -2 to hit would do to Imperial Guard or Tau. Or Tesla Immmortals. Even shooty Ork armies have decent melee so we will be fine. The same is true for Tyranids.

7) An exception to 6) is fliers with Airborne and Hard-to-hit. Orks can do _NOTHING_ to these fliers (and no, Stormboyz does not work). But this problem is not a general problem with negative hit-modifers, and should be solved in other ways. Like giving Orks an ability to ignore the Hard-to Hit rule, or let Rokkits do double damage to fliers, or making the tractor-gun really good.

8) And lets us not forget, that Orks has some very nice units that are largely invulnerable to shooting themselves. Getting hit by 8-15 wounds of smite a turn from our untargetable weirdboyz is no fun for non-horde players.

 Galas wrote:
Ok Jidmah, Ignore how I have said that there should be a rule that every 6 is a automatic hit.

To be fair, you ignored it when I said it as well

Plus you ignored the whole thing about balancing -50% to shooting.

Oh, and I totally disagree with giving tankbustas a reroll against MCs as they have against vehicles. The Tankbusta reroll is one of the bigger problems in the Orks index. It is the tremendous damage output against vehicles that makes tankbustas into such an expensive glasscannon. If you reduce their cost so that they become viable in infantry lists, then they become broken against vehicles. Adding to their damage output compounds the problem.

It would be much better to remove the reroll, drop the cost of the rokkits to 8 points, and give tankbustas access to ammorunts. Or just not have lootas, burnaboyz and lootas be separate units. Let them be wargear options on an elite boy-slot.

 Blackie wrote:

I'd like lootas with D6 shots each and 10-12 ppm.

Such lootas would be almost 3 times more killy than autocannon havoks point-per-point. While remaining only ~1.2-1.3 times less durable. That's a glass cannon approach. Not a great thing for i-go-you-go system we currently have. For the game to be more tactical, things should actually be less killy to mitigate the most important dice roll in the game. The dice for who goes first.

One little thing that just came to mind, why not +1 BS based on unit size just decide how many models each unit must have to gain that bonus. maybe for shoota boys it's 12 or more models and lootas it 9 or more. something like this could be used for quite a few units. Maybe burnas could use it for 1+D3 or 5 2+D3 for 10 and 3+D3 for 15, just as how I would /could see it continue as a theme for mobs. It could be different
Orks are still squishy so it's only and advantage for a few turns and can be countered by killing Orks.
Ork unit size could influence both the BS to hit roll and extra effects, maybe adding an extra shot or something.
With the disadvantage of a 6+ save it might be reasonable. ?