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 Yodhrin wrote:
I've not been paying close attention - what's the usual lead time between the plastic gang and the FW upgrade kits?

Cawdor was, what, August and their upgrades were released this last weekend? Probably 3/4 months - so probably March/April next year?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Why is the reduced effectiveness for plasma OK, but not for a needler? off the top of my head, the combi-version having reduced power (as with the combi-plasma weapon) explains both the reduced range and AP, as the "carrier" laser can't punch through armour as well and "fades out" quicker. The less-ideal ergonomics of a combi-weapon would also explain the reduced accuracy, IMO.

Not necessarily OK, but it's not a problem in my mind. And they have been consistent about it. If I can use some gross simplification: Plasma already have 2 weapon profiles. Most weapons have a single weapon profile. A combi weapon usually combines two weapons to give a combined weapon with the two weapon profiles from the same weapon. I thought it was just a little exception to avoid a weapon being overly complex, having a total of 3 weapon profiles (plasma min, max and the weapon combined with plasma). This could lead to potential problems somewhere in the rules, but I agree it probably would be no problem having combi plasma with both min and max power.

Needler / needle rifle on the other hand only has a single weapon profile. Just like bolt gun. Or any other non-plasma weapon part of a combi weapon.

If they for some weird reason made a heavy plasma combi weapon, I'd be certain it couldn't fire max power. But if they made a combi weapon using needle pistol, I don't feel certain they'd keep the -1 short range accuracy and AP. It just feels (to me at least) inconsistent.

The way I look at it, a combi weapon might share profile lines with the individual weapons its made from, but doesn't need to.

In the case of most other combi-weapons, they're made up of a pair of assault weapons, so it's weight of fire that's important over accuracy, so the unwieldiness of a combi-weapon doesn't matter. but a needler is a precision weapon. Once it's included in a combi-weapon, that's compromised; the iron sights are way off the line of the barrel and the ergonomics make it harder to get a good grip and firing stance, hence the amended profile.

(Also, it was described as having been done for game balance)

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the weapon's called; I use whatever numbers I've written on her fighter card; easy. Maybe I'll start naming their guns...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Of course GW could stubbornly say "Nah bruv, it was totes intentional!" like way back in the day when T5 Oblits were an "error". Yes I'm still bitter at Pete Haines about that.

Jesus Christ sometimes I hate being right all the time..

Necromunda Facebook Group wrote:Over to Necromunda team boss Andy Hoare:

"We use a formula to generate costs for all the weapons in Necromunda, this has been very firmly established for a long time now and all weapon costs adhere strictly to it, even though there’s some small leeway to round up or round down. Upon reviewing everything for Necromunda: Gangs of the Underhive book we felt that it wasn’t working for a few things that had been discounted too much early on (combi weapons primarily), and for clubs which, in spite of a discount were just too expensive– the profile as it was meant the weapon cost just shy of 30 creds and could be discounted to 25, but it seemed weird that a length of pipe should cost more than many a properly crafted weapon!

We wanted to keep the profile intact however as it makes the club its own weapon, so we thought we’d try it with a positive AP, something we can do but, so far, hadn’t done. Putting that through the formula brought the club in at a much more reasonable 10 creds; the price point we felt was right for a length of pipe.
We know that in reality blunt weapons are better against armour, but the game isn’t a simulation of reality, it’s about creating an enjoyable game. This solution fits in game terms."

Hope that helps!

Also, depends on the armour.

Padded chainmail, blunt isn't terribly effective. Plate? Buckle it but good, yet unlikely to inflict a particularly serious wound and that.

Mesh armour, in particular (that Van Saar and Orlock gangers get, among others) is supposed to be material that is ordinarily flexible but stiffens up under impact; just the sort of thing that would be good against a club.

It still doesn't make sense when compared to other weapons or bare hands, though. Mind you, I play Escher, so I don;'t need to worry about it.

That's some fairly solid rationale though. I'm impartial as to the stat line and its effects, but when design choices come down to two irrational conclusions, go with the one that makes the most sense.
As to compensate...
Maybe have a rule that makes bare hands worse?
Of course you could say, if the formula only presents them 2 irrational choices, then it's broken; but that's really not true, especially in game design; gak happens all the time in MTG when they're designing cards.
I wouldn't have been surprised if they had chosen to leave the pipe as is and just dropped the points, and then suddenly everyone and their dog has pipes.
I am surprised to hear they have a formula, and I would very much like to see how that works. I suppose I could attempt to backwards engineer it from weapon profiles....

For those who want more Necromunda fiction, it's in today's advent calendar, an audio drama to boot about the Desert: https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/advent-2018-11-bounty-hunter-the-deserter-mp3.html

In the underhive of Necromunda, the only law that really matters is that might is right and unless you can defend what's yours, someone else will claim it. That's what happened to Corenne. When the Thunder Knuckle Posse came, they took control of the Sweet Drop Still, sending her family packing. Now, she wants it back, and a chance encounter with a ragged old man known only as "The Deserter" who claims to have fought in the armies of the vaunted Lord Solar might just be her salvation – or at least revenge.

An audio drama written by Justin D Hill.

Running time 27 minutes. Performed by Steve Conlin, Toby Longworth, Carla Medonca & Jo Woodcock.

Link has a sample.

And the deserter is still not released...

 zedmeister wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
I've not been paying close attention - what's the usual lead time between the plastic gang and the FW upgrade kits?

Cawdor was, what, August and their upgrades were released this last weekend? Probably 3/4 months - so probably March/April next year?

Eeeesh They really need to get that down to more like three or four weeks rather than months. The gap makes no sense either, the contents of the upgrade packs are surely being sculpted at the same time as the plastics, and with the resin production process it would even be possible to time things so they came out on the same day.

Maybe?

But while you can resize computer designed stuff once the resin is made you're stuck, so they won't want to start building up a stock of arms until they have final plastics to make sure stuff fits

(they're probably 95% certain it will based on the 3d Prints but no points doing a whole bunch of production which is labour intensive and produces a non recyclable end product until they're certain)

and since it looks like FW just like GW is running at capacity finding the time to produce a bunch of stock for the launch where 80% (? i'm guessing but bet it's pretty high) of the lifetime sales of the product will be made is going to take plenty of time

It also means a gang doesn't drop and get forgotten about (although I admit spare arms aren't very exciting), there's at least something tangible to look forward to for those investing in them

There seems to be some confusion about how you buy new equipment for fighters. Looking at the Pre-Battle & Post-battle Sequence section (p90 of the Rulebook ebook on my iPad), under the Visit the Trading Post section, there's:

Visit the Trading Post:
Hire a fighter. Hire a new fighter from your gang's House List. (you buy them "naked" at this stage)

Recruit Hangers-on

Sell equipment from the Stash

Purchase Equipment. Here you can buy whatever you like from your House Equipment list and Common items from the Trading Post


Seek Rare Equipment. Here you make your Availability roll if any Champions undertook a Trade post-battle action. Buy anything with Rarity less than or equal to your roll (make a single roll, buy as much as you can afford) and add it to the stash.

Gain Boons from Territories

Distribute Equipment
Here, you can remove an item from the Stash and add it to a Fighter's Fighter Card. This section also says "Players are reminded that no fighter can discard a weapon once added to their Fighter cards as described in the Gangs of the Underhive book."

However, all the Gangs of the uNderhive book says is the Stashed Weapons and Wargear box on page 116, which says "Should any fighter purchase new weapons or Wargear, old weapons or Wargear may be added to the Stash."


My take on all of that is that (by the letter of the rules), fighters can return Wargear (grenades, armour, personal equipment) to the stash but must retain any weapons they're given. I'd also say you could remove weapon accessories and Status items other than master-crafted weapons. YMMV, and personally I intend to allow players to remove weapons from fighters if they want anyway.

My reading of the Ganger equipment restrictions is that it doesn't prevent you buying an existing Ganger a special weapon later, it's just explaining that the limit of a single ganger with special weapon only applies to gang creation before the first game.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Maybe?

But while you can resize computer designed stuff once the resin is made you're stuck, so they won't want to start building up a stock of arms until they have final plastics to make sure stuff fits

(they're probably 95% certain it will based on the 3d Prints but no points doing a whole bunch of production which is labour intensive and produces a non recyclable end product until they're certain)

and since it looks like FW just like GW is running at capacity finding the time to produce a bunch of stock for the launch where 80% (? i'm guessing but bet it's pretty high) of the lifetime sales of the product will be made is going to take plenty of time

It also means a gang doesn't drop and get forgotten about (although I admit spare arms aren't very exciting), there's at least something tangible to look forward to for those investing in them

But the point is that while the resin process is labour intensive, it's not slow. Even after they have the final version of the plastics sorted, they still have to mill all the production molds and run up sufficient stock to handle the launch and post-launch periods, and there's no reason final tweaks, 3D printing, and molding the resin extras should take longer than that process.

No I think your latter point is far more likely the reason - it's about the dripfeed of releases intended to keep people on the hook, but doing it this way doesn't make me "look forward" to the future release, it makes me frustrated that I'm sitting here ready to get to work on my Delaque gang, but don't have access to everything I want to do that and won't for months.


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 AndrewGPaul wrote:

My take on all of that is that (by the letter of the rules), fighters can return Wargear (grenades, armour, personal equipment) to the stash but must retain any weapons they're given. I'd also say you could remove weapon accessories and Status items other than master-crafted weapons. YMMV, and personally I intend to allow players to remove weapons from fighters if they want anyway.

Disagree, the letter of the rules are in direct conflict, but since the Rulebook specifically refers to what's stated in Gangs of the Underhive, I'd say that is the version that should win the conflict, and on that basis returning both Wargear and weapons to the stash is permitted.

However even if GW FAQ it otherwise, I'll be ignoring them, because it's a daft idea.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, depends on the armour.

Padded chainmail, blunt isn't terribly effective. Plate? Buckle it but good, yet unlikely to inflict a particularly serious wound and that.

I'm not sure where this has come from- blunt is still terribly effective at transmitting force through mail. The padding underneath helps far more, but even that is vulnerable, and you wear plenty of padding under plate. Plate is actually better at resisting impacts than mail- the rigidity transmits the impact over more body, and it takes a huge impact to dent good plate. The solid curves are more likely to deflect blows too, whereas a spiked or flanged mace is more likely to gain purchase on mail.

The biggest problem with blunt weapons is that most of a human is fundamentally pretty resistant to blunt impacts, and armour makes them really resistant. The reason blunt-impact weapons are used against armour is simply that they are still able to damage through armour, whilst sharp weapons become almost useless unless they hit unarmoured areas. But a mace blow to armour needs to hit a joint or the head to have a good chance of causing injury- anywhere else and your opponent is probably still fighting effectively.

Of course, this is no reason why a club should be worse than fists- it is still a force multiplier!

Yeah, this is what you actually used to penetrate plate (the spiked end). Even better If you hit a weak joint. The hammer head sometimes had a coat of arms on it, so you could swivel it round and mark your kill for the tallyman.

There was also a pike with a giant can opener attachment on it, called a halberd, and another called a poleaxe . Also the basic Spear was a good way to poke the soft bits in joints, the face, the side of the armor and nut shots, behind the knees, and ankles.

The best gang for this is the Cawdors. Their gang has some shooty weapons on the end of their pole arms, pikes, and halberds, so this is an added bonus.

faqs

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/14/necromunda-new-rulebooks-and-faqfw-homepage-post-1/

 Haighus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, depends on the armour.

Padded chainmail, blunt isn't terribly effective. Plate? Buckle it but good, yet unlikely to inflict a particularly serious wound and that.

I'm not sure where this has come from- blunt is still terribly effective at transmitting force through mail. The padding underneath helps far more, but even that is vulnerable, and you wear plenty of padding under plate. Plate is actually better at resisting impacts than mail- the rigidity transmits the impact over more body, and it takes a huge impact to dent good plate. The solid curves are more likely to deflect blows too, whereas a spiked or flanged mace is more likely to gain purchase on mail.

The biggest problem with blunt weapons is that most of a human is fundamentally pretty resistant to blunt impacts, and armour makes them really resistant. The reason blunt-impact weapons are used against armour is simply that they are still able to damage through armour, whilst sharp weapons become almost useless unless they hit unarmoured areas. But a mace blow to armour needs to hit a joint or the head to have a good chance of causing injury- anywhere else and your opponent is probably still fighting effectively.

Of course, this is no reason why a club should be worse than fists- it is still a force multiplier!

Warhammers were more for disabling the opponent, so you could capture them alive and then ransom them back. It's why they often had pointy heads, to proper mangle the armour. That it didn't leave lasting injury was all the better, as less chance of your bounty dying on you.

But what if you already have the rulebook from the Necromunda: Underhive boxed game, and the various Gang War expansions?

No worries – all your rules are still valid! You can bring your gang lists up-to-date with the free House Delaque rules packaged with December’s White Dwarf, while the brand-new FAQ provides errata for the Necromunda: Underhive Rulebook along with some updates to bring it in line with the new rules.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/14/necromunda-new-rulebooks-and-faqfw-homepage-post-1/

Is a pdf patch aimed at the old books useful to anyone? First of all, it seems to apply a random selection of changes to keep the old messy rules semi-valid. But still very inaccurate, there should be tons of rules changes not covered by this pdf. Even if someone insists on using the old books with this pdf patch, it's still gonna be the same old mess, just add another pdf on top. And the Delaque rules are as earlier mentioned a) not free and b) not exhaustive, you'll still be missing out on new rules even if you add it on top of the previous 5 books, GLAP and multiple pdfs

It depends, I suppose; if someone in your group has the new rules and others the old, then it'll be awkward. However, if you all have the current rules, then you can just use this document without having to buy the new rules.

If I'm reading it right...

Old Rules: Bulging Biceps + Fast Shot = Double Dakka w/Heavy Stubber.

New Rules: Bulging Biceps + Fast Shot = Regular Dakka w/Heavy Stubber.

Friend of mine ain't gonna like that...

[EDIT]: Actually... what's the point of Bulging Biceps now? You can carry an Unwieldy weapon in one hand... and... that's it. It still counts as two weapons for the purposes of weapon carrying limitations. It still takes a double action to fire (as you're no longer ignoring the Unwieldy weapon trait). What benefit is there to this Skill?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If I'm reading it right...

Old Rules: Bulging Biceps + Fast Shot = Double Dakka w/Heavy Stubber.

New Rules: Bulging Biceps + Fast Shot = Regular Dakka w/Heavy Stubber.

Friend of mine ain't gonna like that...

[EDIT]: Actually... what's the point of Bulging Biceps now? You can carry an Unwieldy weapon in one hand... and... that's it. It still counts as two weapons for the purposes of weapon carrying limitations. It still takes a double action to fire (as you're no longer ignoring the Unwieldy weapon trait). What benefit is there to this Skill?

Nothing change for Bulging Bicep since the last faq months ago. It's main use is to be able to claim the bonus attack with unwieldy CC weapon. (it's useless)

Bulging Biceps went from being 1 great shooting skill in a crappy melee skill set to being a mediocre melee skill in a crappy melee skill set.

Bottom line, you don't have to risk rolls on a dumb useless melee table to get that one amazing thing for your main shooty guy anymore.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It depends, I suppose; if someone in your group has the new rules and others the old, then it'll be awkward. However, if you all have the current rules, then you can just use this document without having to buy the new rules.

Yeah I guess so, but the rules will be N17 with random updates from N18, not a clean N18 rules set as per the new compendium books. If you are a casual player, maybe that's ok. But any player willing to spend money to buy all the Gang War books sounds more dedicated than casual, so I would expect them to play N18 with all the rules updated.

And whenever you'll discuss the rules online, there will only be confusion, as the N17-N18 mix will not match what most (hopefully) are discussing.

It'll only be more confusing if you keep referring to them as N17 and N18.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It'll only be more confusing if you keep referring to them as N17 and N18.

maybe Necromunda 2nd ed?

It's certainly different rules, changes are made all over the place. Not sure what you would prefer to call it, edition, version or something else. At yaktribe they be decided to distinguish this difference by N18 (most updated compendium rules) and N17 (old messy rules).


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It'll only be more confusing if you keep referring to them as N17 and N18.

That's how they decided to label the different rules at yaktribe. You have a better way of distinguishing different rules?

GW UK has confirmed (via E-mail via a Facebook group) that the Bad-Zone Delta tiles will be getting a rules PDF on the website by Friday-ish.

Baxx wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It depends, I suppose; if someone in your group has the new rules and others the old, then it'll be awkward. However, if you all have the current rules, then you can just use this document without having to buy the new rules.

Yeah I guess so, but the rules will be N17 with random updates from N18, not a clean N18 rules set as per the new compendium books. If you are a casual player, maybe that's ok. But any player willing to spend money to buy all the Gang War books sounds more dedicated than casual, so I would expect them to play N18 with all the rules updated.

And whenever you'll discuss the rules online, there will only be confusion, as the N17-N18 mix will not match what most (hopefully) are discussing.

I’m dedicated enough to buy all the books, but casual enough that none of the “issues” bothered me; same with the rest of my group. for our next club campaign we’ll be using the new books, but I expect some players will just use the old books and learn the changes as we go.

The cawdor dice sold out on the US site and the van saar dice are gone without a trace. If anyone has any interest in collecting the other dice better do it cause they might never come back, same happened to the chaos BB dice and dominion cards. I still wanted another set of cawdor dice but it looks like ill be going on ebay or elsewhere.