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 streetsamurai wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
So. I am deliriously happy about Nucromunda. I am pre-ordering the whole she-bang. No question.

But I am so confused as to the rules release. It seems like the rulebook packaged in Underhive is required to play - i.e., the core rules are actually not printed in Gang War.

This is a purely hypothetical problem for me, as I am defintely buying Underhive. But a 125 USD threshold just to get the core rules? And then you also need to buy Gang War if you want to play actual (i.e., 3D) Necromunda?

Why?

Nickle and diming

That explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. We aren't talking about nickels and dimes. The box is a relatively big ticket item.

Now that I think about it, Blood Bowl works the same way. You have to get the 99USD box if you want the core rules for the game.

the gang war book is the nicke and diming part. A very small rulebook sold at a pretty high price.

but too be honest, the box is a lot less expensive than I expected, so I don't really care


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pre orders up



Automatically Appended Next Post:
never noticed the escher leader was wearing a coat hussar style. She's hot

ah, streetsamurai beat me to it, but yeah, it's all up on the NZ GW page if you want to get a proper look at stuff

wow, gangwar only has rules for escher and goliath?
this is going to get expensive.

Ah, them dice, nice!



Also, gang crest is on the 6.

 insaniak wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
I genuinely don’t get the complaints.

Necromunda isn’t a competitive game. It’s not a game meant for random pick ups. It’s a campaign game that’s designed to be played by a bunch of mates or people at a club ...

... so why are people so concerned that there may not be official rules for a mini they already own?

Because it means there are no official rules for that mini?

It's not a particularly complicated complaint.

No it’s not complicated, but I think it is trivial. Virtually my entire collected consists of conversions for which there are no official rules.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:


No it’s not complicated, but I think it is trivial. Virtually my entire collected consists of conversions for which there are no official rules.

And if you're happy to do that, that's great. For many players, the point of buying rules is that you dont have to write them yourself.

You'll find many players who simply have no interest in using or allowing anything that is not an official release.

 insaniak wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:


No it’s not complicated, but I think it is trivial. Virtually my entire collected consists of conversions for which there are no official rules.

And if you're happy to do that, that's great. For many players, the point of buying rules is that you dont have to write them yourself.

You'll find many players who simply have no interest in using or allowing anything that is not an official release.

Sounds very dull to me, but each to their own.

I don’t mind that GW don’t make official rules for things they don’t make miniatures of, because I understand why they do it. Rules with no minis creates a market for the third party, which means if GW does want to make that mini in the future, they’ve allowed the competition a head start.

So, I don’t mind making up my own rules for things that don’t officially exist, because that’s what many gamers have always done. It’s what I’ve always done, ever since I started gaming well over thirty years ago.

Gang Sprues as they are up on the New Zealand site





and the bases definitely picking up more of these great that they are generic industrial and not "Grimdark"

25mm

32mm

Preview of the upcoming Necromunda table:

Lab-grown Goliaths? :0 That will look beautifull.

 Galas wrote:
Lab-grown Goliaths? :0 That will look beautifull.

Love it. They're all vat grown in the background. Love that fact as well as the fact that the Eschers have to get the Van Saars to supply them with illicit tech to allow parthenogenesis. The interlinking and reliance between the houses is quite clever.

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Necromunda isn’t a competitive game. It’s not a game meant for random pick ups. It’s a campaign game that’s designed to be played by a bunch of mates or people at a club ...

... so why are people so concerned that there may not be official rules for a mini they already own?

How are these two things at all related? No one's said anything about "competitive Necromunda". In fact a few people have said that Necromunda isn't meant as a competitive game. None of that has anything to do with wanting to customise your gang and have the most basic bits of equipment (stubguns/autopistols/laspistols/shotguns/autoguns/lasguns/heavy stubbers/flamers/clubs/swords/knives) available as really common items without having to piece together a trading post from several sources.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
Necromunda isn’t a competitive game. It’s not a game meant for random pick ups. It’s a campaign game that’s designed to be played by a bunch of mates or people at a club ...

... so why are people so concerned that there may not be official rules for a mini they already own?

How are these two things at all related? No one's said anything about "competitive Necromunda". In fact a few people have said that Necromunda isn't meant as a competitive game. None of that has anything to do with wanting to customise your gang and have the most basic bits of equipment (stubguns/autopistols/laspistols/shotguns/autoguns/lasguns/heavy stubbers/flamers/clubs/swords/knives) available as really common items without having to piece together a trading post from several sources.

Mate, I’m not trying to say anyone is wrong, or claim anyone has said anything they haven’t. I’m just trying to get a better understanding of the issues.

I can understand MonkeyBallistic point. If someone has been playing Necromunda for the past 15 years with 0 support from GW, that now they don't give you all the rules for the weapons will be a non issue.
90% of the Necromunda content that I used in some campaings I did 2-3 years ago was fan made.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand MonkeyBallistic point. If someone has been playing Necromunda for the past 15 years with 0 support from GW, that now they don't give you all the rules for the weapons will be a non issue.
90% of the Necromunda content that I used in some campaings I did 2-3 years ago was fan made.

It's not a non-issue at all. "Just keep using the old rules" only works if you have a regular group already and/or you don't play in a store - most folk will be using the new rules and most stores aren't going to let you use old free rules when they're trying to flog folk the new paid ones. "Just make it up yourself" is first of all again contingent on you having access to other players who're happy with such extensive house ruling, but even putting that aside a lot of folk don't have either the time or the skill to write balanced rules themselves, and even putting that aside GW are asking us to pay a premium price, so it's not even slightly unreasonable to expect a complete product for that price.

I think most people have accepted the "game in a box" logic as to why they split all the advanced and campaign rules off into a separate book, even if they don't like it, but if they're going to hold their hands out and insist we pay for those advanced rules it should have all of them, not a paltry handful based strictly on what's available on the sprues(and not even on GW sprues generally - recall every classic Necro weapon I can think of exists in some form in at least one GW kit - just the specific Escher & Goliath sprues). And that's not even mentioning the sheer bloody inconvenience of it all - now we're not just talking about carting around the Rulebook plus Gang War, but also a sheaf of pages from White Dwarf here, a few printouts from the Community site there, or manually writing up combined tables containing all the little bits & bobs, and then dealing with that one guy who insists that if you don't personally own page 27 of White Dwarf from January 2018 that adds Meltaguns to the Trading Post tables you're not allowed to use a Meltagun etc etc.

Keeping back the new gang-specific stuff for the release of those gangs is tolerable, but launching a 40K game and not even allowing people to equip a goddamn chainsword?! That's mental and nobody's going to convince me otherwise.

And again, the whole third party bitz makers thing is sheer paranoia on GW's part - almost all of their customers either don't know they exist, don't game somewhere that would allow them, or don't like using anything other than the "official" stuff. A few folk ordering a third party alternative Heavy Stubber or buying a GW one from ebay bitz retailers will make so little difference to the success or otherwise of Newcromunda that it would actually be impossible to work out a statistic that small.

Doesn't even need to be a 3rd party "not-heavy stubber". I've got tons of left-over stubbers from my Guard accessory sprues. I've made Heavy Stubbers and Autocannons for Heavies using spare Ork weapons.

There's just no reason beyond paranoid No Model = No Rules not to include these.

"But they'll sell those weapons in FW conversion packs!" someone cries into the night. Yes, we know. And that's great. But this is about the rules, and the fact that the trading post is essentially incomplete even with two book releases. No one is expecting them to release the rules for weapons unique to Delaques/Cawdor/etc. before the miniatures come out, so they don't have to have a page for House Orlock Trading Post, House Van Sarr Trading Post, and so on in a book that doesn't feature their rules, but having a trading post with universally accessed general weapons would not be too hard to include.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Doesn't even need to be a 3rd party "not-heavy stubber". I've got tons of left-over stubbers from my Guard accessory sprues. I've made Heavy Stubbers and Autocannons for Heavies using spare Ork weapons.

There's just no reason beyond paranoid No Model = No Rules not to include these.

"But they'll sell those weapons in FW conversion packs!" someone cries into the night. Yes, we know. And that's great. But this is about the rules, and the fact that the trading post is essentially incomplete even with two book releases. No one is expecting them to release the rules for weapons unique to Delaques/Cawdor/etc. before the miniatures come out, so they don't have to have a page for House Orlock Trading Post, House Van Sarr Trading Post, and so on in a book that doesn't feature their rules, but having a trading post with universally accessed general weapons would not be too hard to include.

As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money.
I mean, what miniature gaming company makes rules for models they don't sell, and are a booming success? I don't know any.

I think (Or more accurately, I hope), that they will release a complete rulebook with everything once they have released the first 6 original gangs.

Neronoxx wrote:
As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money. I mean, what miniature gaming company makes rules for models they don't sell, and are a booming success? I don't know any.

You mean GW-made chainswords, autopistols and stubbers are rare items?

Neronoxx wrote:

As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money.

Not actualy true.

If the money those other companies are making is comparatively insignificant, but having those options broadens the appeal of your product, it's potentially a very good idea to allow it.

 insaniak wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money.

Not actualy true.

If the money those other companies are making is comparatively insignificant, but having those options broadens the appeal of your product, it's potentially a very good idea to allow it.

Definitely. And GW really should do more to influence the broader ecosystem that exists around their games instead of trying to minimize contact with it.

Most people don't use 3rd party bits. This is mainly about kitbashing various GW kits. I used to buy certain GW kits just for spare parts; not much reason to do that anymore.

 insaniak wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money.

Not actualy true.

If the money those other companies are making is comparatively insignificant, but having those options broadens the appeal of your product, it's potentially a very good idea to allow it.

Right up until another chapter house happens.

its only symbiotic until its not.

 insaniak wrote:

Neronoxx wrote:

As a general rule of thumb, its never a good idea to let other companies make money off your business model in areas where you wont be making money.

Not actualy true.

If the money those other companies are making is comparatively insignificant, but having those options broadens the appeal of your product, it's potentially a very good idea to allow it.

Ask WotC how well getting rid of the OGL did for making 4e D&D more profitable. (Answer - getting rid of the OGL made 4e less profitable - there is a reason why D&D 5e went with the OGL again.)

Third party manufacturers can increase sales for the main game. So, Tamiya, for example, goes so far as to send prerelease kits to the companies that make detail kits for the Tamiya models. Because having somebody that makes etched brass control panels for their models means that folks are more likely to buy the Tamiya models.

Another way to view it is that if somebody is making bionic arms for GW models, they are going to need GW models to put those bionic arms on.

But it can be very easy to look at the entirety of the market - including third parties - and think that you would make more money if folks weren't buying those third party bits. (Which is what happened to WotC - they looked at the entirety of the D20/OGL market and did the forty meter conclusion jump. Into a spiked pit.)

The Auld Grump

Are the new weapon stats actually different enough from WH40k 8th edition, SW:Armageddon, and original Necromunda that it wouldn't be trivial to convert them from somewhere?

I don't know if anyone has actually seen the new weapon stats, but I think the biggest concern is going to be pricing to keep things balanced.

I don't think it's 3rd party stuff stopping it. That seems more like a myth invented by forum goers

We know they are thinking of allowing the other gangs to use all of the GS cult stuff. That's available already. There is no issue with 3rd party stuff.

They just aren't ready to do it yet. These things will come in good time. Necromunda is here for years and years and years. We're going to get loafs of cool stuff.

Vorian wrote:
I don't think it's 3rd party stuff stopping it. That seems more like a myth invented by forum goers

We know they are thinking of allowing the other gangs to use all of the GS cult stuff. That's available already. There is no issue with 3rd party stuff.

They just aren't ready to do it yet. These things will come in good time. Necromunda is here for years and years and years. We're going to get loafs of cool stuff.

Then they can ask me to pay for it "in good time".

Don't worry. They will. And they'll ask you to do it again, and again, and again, and again because that's their business plan now. Keep charging you for the material you would have once received in a single purchase.