Necromunda Underhive - House of Chains Pg272

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**Ruin_In_The_Dark**

I have already consigned myself to getting at least one of everything . . . Necro coming back has cranked my nostalgia levels to critical. If the rules suck I have the old books and online editions and if anything ends up missing I can shoehorn it in. I will be getting all the models they produce for this as I have spent years looking at insanely priced Ratskins and Escher on ebay thinking "you should of bought these first time round . . . "

**streetsamurai**

Yodhrin wrote:
Honestly I'd only be happy seeing stuff like Squats come back if they actually make them interesting. All the other "fantasy" factions have come a long way since the early days, just cramming the awful original "WHFB Dwarfs, but also Hell's Angels for some reason" in isn't going to cut it, they need updated - nostalgia only goes so far, especially since not everyone is equally enamoured of this or that part of the old fluff.

exactly. Squats were lame af, and would need a serious redesign to make them interesting. Honestly, I think they are much cooler concepts to (re)visit than these guys

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Yodhrin wrote:
Honestly I'd only be happy seeing stuff like Squats come back if they actually make them interesting. All the other "fantasy" factions have come a long way since the early days, just cramming the awful original "WHFB Dwarfs, but also Hell's Angels for some reason" in isn't going to cut it, they need updated - nostalgia only goes so far, especially since not everyone is equally enamoured of this or that part of the old fluff.

Indeed. You've pretty much nailed why they dropped them, according to Internet Legend.

If it's rubbish, don't buy it. But do feedback to them all the same. Doesn't cost owt.

**Baxx**

zedmeister wrote:
Nice spot, not been to that forum for a while.

Also, nice comment:

Specialist Games products are entirely aimed at veterans mate

I see a lot of talk on youtube, unboxings and discussions about Necromunda (and also Blood Bowl after that was released) and it seems entirely like noobs or people without any background from the games that do the talking!

Everyone should be welcome to try this game and talk about it, but are there any quality videoes from people who actually have played Necromunda?

I'm more interested in hearing the differences rather than the introduction to and by people coming from 40k.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote:
I have already consigned myself to getting at least one of everything . . . Necro coming back has cranked my nostalgia levels to critical. If the rules suck I have the old books and online editions and if anything ends up missing I can shoehorn it in. I will be getting all the models they produce for this as I have spent years looking at insanely priced Ratskins and Escher on ebay thinking "you should of bought these first time round . . . "

This x1000!!!! Been starved for ages and with high prices for old/ugly models (some exceptions).

**zedmeister**

At the risk of going off tangent, I feel I have to post this in defense of Squats. This is Jervis Johnson, posting on the old Fanatic Epic: 40,000 boards back in the heady days of 2004 on what actually happened with the Squats for those unaware:

Spoiler:

I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

So, yes, in a sense you are right in that they [GW] felt their 40k iteration was poor. However, their Epic iteration was well loved. I am hoping, if they return, that they capture that bespoke, artisan feeling they used to have in Epic.

**BrookM**

Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.

**zedmeister**

BrookM wrote:
Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.

Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Bunch of tie-in non-model/gaming waff coming.

https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/2017/11/13/exclusive-products-at-the-warhammer-40000-open-days/

Quite like the Tees, spesh the Corpse Starch one.

**zedmeister**

Ooo, want that Escher mug. Kicking myself that I didn't get tickets

**BrookM**

zedmeister wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.

Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.

Would be a great way of explaining how Spyrers got their advanced equipment.

**Albertorius**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think old Grognard's everywhere need to embrace if not Necromunda the game, Necromunda the miniature's range.

Remember, Specialist Games may have better funding these days (that much is obvious. Just compare the production values!), but stuff has to sell if we're to get more.

Now I'm not arguing those fans of Oldhammer should slavishly buy everything produced for Necromunda. But, if something even vaguely tickles your fancy, do see if you can fit it into your budget.

If GW 'proper' sees us going mental for stuff like Beastmen, Squats and other oddities of yesteryear, it's more likely we'll see more of the same coming in.

And it doesn't need to be purchases either. Engage with the design team. Tell them what you've loved, liked, meh and hated about recent releases. As long as it's constructive (gushing and aimless whining are equally redundant as feedback), I'm sure it'll be welcomed.

They're starting to give us what they think we want. So far, we're grateful for that - but don't forget to give them that steer.

Honestly, I expect to be making orders to Forgeworld for the first time in my life.

Which means I'll also get some HH stuff to round out my plastics -_-.

**zedmeister**

BrookM wrote:
Would be a great way of explaining how Spyrers got their advanced equipment.

Nice. I like that kind of thinking. Squat tech smugglers trading advanced, non Imperium sanctioned tech for Van Saar STC tech or Escher narcotics.

Necromunda will really open out the slice of life side. I'm hoping they'll really flesh out the more mundane activities (as opposed to world shattering events) like tech smuggling, drug running, business dealing, bounty hunting, all that good stuff.

**Vorian**

Was it a Tau codex that talked about how Spyrer suits were Tau tech?

**BrookM**

feth the T'au.

And also, Goliath tactics: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/15/tactica-house-goliath-nov-15gw-homepage-post-2/

**mdauben**

Chopstick wrote:

The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone

This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.

**wuestenfux**

mdauben wrote:
Chopstick wrote:

The only team that fit in Necromunda setting is GSC team. Other team should stick to where they belong. Altho you could make a SW : Underhive with only killteam fighting eachother, in the end Harlequin and Nid will still wipe the floor with everyone

This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.

MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?

**zedmeister**

wuestenfux wrote:
mdauben wrote:

This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.

MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?

Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.

**mdauben**

zedmeister wrote:

Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.

This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.

**Vorian**

I'm also not really a fan of random things turning up in the underhive, the setting works without 40k stuff turning up. It's uniquely small scale is one of its main selling points

The two cults make sense, not much else does - and even then it should be both cults in stealth mode, don't need daemons and genestealers everywhere - those are for when the cults are more 40k scale (imo).

**TheAuldGrump**

zedmeister wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Having the Squat / Demiurg set up shop on Necromunda is cool, as they could be seen as suppliers of raw materials for the ever busy industries of the hives. Necromunda cannot survive on its own meagre resources alone.

Or illicit tech smugglers. I'd quite like the idea of the Squats still being quite advanced but doing their level best to keep it concealed.

The real reason you never see Van Saar without those suits - they're all on stilts!

The Auld Grump

**Galas**

Once we ran a Campaing where a Deathwathc Kill Team of 5 marines appeared in the Underhive because they where after a Genestealer Cult. At that point they where killing everything that did come in their sight because the Genestealer where so widespream that nearly everything that wasn't our gangs was part of the cult, and we didn't even realized (Yeah, we were killing a bunch of GM's bald men but nobody tought they where cultists, he totally tricked us in believen they where Delaque

)
The final Battle was 3 survivor marines of the original 5 supported by a Goliath Gang, a Redemptionist (This was mine) Gang, a Cawdor Gang, and a Escher Gang. Agaisn't a Horde of Genestealer cultists.
I tried to kill the Patriarch to steal the glory. He ended killing my whole gang

But yeah, those are specific scenarios with a Game Master and friends. Having a "Space marine gang" for casual play doesn't work with the Necromunda Setting.

**ZebioLizard2**

Vorian wrote:
Was it a Tau codex that talked about how Spyrer suits were Tau tech?

No, but the 3rd edition Tau codex that came out later had Tau words that perfectly matched up with the Spyrer suits in terms of description.

Orrus = Or'es (powerful)
Jakara = J'karra (mirror)
Malcadon = Mal'caor (spider)
Yeld = Y'eldi (winged one)

I feel that it may have been a plotline that eventually failed to go anywhere however.

**beast_gts**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Vorian wrote:
Was it a Tau codex that talked about how Spyrer suits were Tau tech?
No, but the 3rd edition Tau codex that came out later had Tau words that perfectly matched up with the Spyrer suits in terms of description.

Orrus = Or'es (powerful)
Jakara = J'karra (mirror)
Malcadon = Mal'caor (spider)
Yeld = Y'eldi (winged one)

I feel that it may have been a plotline that eventually failed to go anywhere however.

It's been mentioned in other novels as well - I'll try to remember which ones...

**Neronoxx**

zedmeister wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
mdauben wrote:

This. I don't want to see SM shoe horned into Necromunda just because people want to use their 40K figures. They are two different games with two different "power levels" and they don't mix properly.

MEQ units are not suitable to field in an underhive.
But maybe a unit of Scouts?

Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.

Possibly because marines do as they please, and may not trust the authorities to do the job right?
That took me 5 seconds, so I'm sure there are a number of good explanations possible.

**Barzam**

I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?

**kilcin**

Barzam wrote:
I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?

I recall facing against Chaos Marines.

**Strg Alt**

kilcin wrote:
Barzam wrote:
I know the original Necromunda was pretty limited in its crossover with mainline 40k, but aside from the small Eldar warband, did any other mainline 40k armies have gangs? Like, were there rules for running an Inquisition team or Sisters?

I recall facing against Chaos Marines.

That was just a special scenario in which a couple of gangs fight against a common threat. CSM wasn´t a gang and their members could not gain XP. In a nutshell, they were just villains of the week.

It baffles my mind why people want to include SM in Necromunda. The Underhive´s motto is lowlifes with high-tech. There is simply no place for goons with power armour. And no, this not an invitation to smuggle SM Scouts into the game. Smurfs and relatives should stick with 40K. They already ruined the 40K setting with this silly primaris nonsense and I don´t want this awful stuff anywhere near a Necromunda board.

Squat topic:
It is imho highly unlikely that there will be a full squat gang. Maybe a bounter hunter like Goatboy. The emphasis of Necromunda is on human gangs of the various important Houses and a few mutants.

**Inquisitor Kallus**

mdauben wrote:
zedmeister wrote:

Why would they even be down there? It'd be a waste of a very scarce resource to send a Marine Scout down instead of an Arbite Snatch Squad.

This. Unless there is some sort of major Chaos or Xenos incursion in the underhive, why would SM send scouts down there? And if they did, it becomes a 40K game played in an industrial setting, not a Necromunda game.

Indeed. Necromunda is a chance to break away from the 'standards' of 40k, to go to street level, literally, and be immersed in a setting of gangs and criminals that gives a hugely different feel in both game and setting. Marines are in everything else, however, they are not everywhere in background terms, being composed of only a thousand or so marines per chapter, which is infinitesimally small compared to all the other life out there. I dont understand why people feel the need to have to have marines in something like Necromunda, it's the equivalent of bringing the Avengers or the Justice League to a walllet theft....

**Chairman Aeon**

Vorian wrote:
I'm also not really a fan of random things turning up in the underhive, the setting works without 40k stuff turning up. It's uniquely small scale is one of its main selling points

Random things turning up in the underhive is what Necromunda is all about. In many ways its the continuation of Rogue Trader as a competitive game...where random things turn up in the underhive.

**Galas**

Yeah, but theres random proper necromunda things like Beastmen Mercenaries, Squats, Mutants, Low-key Heretics or Cultists, Mercenary bands, random xeno/mutant beast, canibals, etc... and then theres random 40k things like Taus, Eldars, etc...