Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Albertorius wrote:

Ruin_In_The_Dark wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Honestly speaking, the pace they're going with the releases, particularly the plastics releases, don't make much sense when you check GW's demonstrated capabilities.

For example, the gang sprues: those are the same "small" sprues that have most units... but most units have two or three of those each. The plastics sprue is larger, but seems to be of a similar size of the sprues of a lot of vehicles.

IOW, they probably could have released sprues for all six houses and the same scenery sprues and it would have amounted to the same sprues that would have had a release with 2-3 new infantry boxes and a vehicle. That doesn't seem too much for GW, does it? But they have decided not to do so.

Check the post in Rumours regarding GWs production issues.

Is that substantiated in any way, or is it just an "I've heard that..." rumor?

I have no idea if its true, but there is another thread with all the details. And would explain why they have staggered the release like this.

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

The difference is that they are actually new rules. You can play 30k with just one or two red books, both of which were released simultaneously. When they released betrayal you could already play, regardless of whether your legion was in the book (I started my Imperial Fists at that point).

The issue now is that they have already written the rules but just aren't giving them to us. It feels like they are releasing an incomplete product.

Mandragola wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

The difference is that they are actually new rules. You can play 30k with just one or two red books, both of which were released simultaneously. When they released betrayal you could already play, regardless of whether your legion was in the book (I started my Imperial Fists at that point).

The issue now is that they have already written the rules but just aren't giving them to us. It feels like they are releasing an incomplete product.

How do you know what is and isn't final and what is and is not in flux according to how the game evolves over time? I could, hypothetically, see 'them' amending and changing things as the game plays out and reports back to ensure that early strong factors or weak factors get countered by later gangs and that the continuing releases act as a living rulebook to provide a better gaming experience.

I'm a fan of this idea and that it's profit contribution gives Specialist Games a continued seat at the table for new releases and production scheduling against it's far bigger brothers in AoS and 40k.

Don't get me wrong, I'm liking what there is so far of the game (full disclosure: I've bought two core boxes, the cards and a crapton of scenery for it, plus Gang War), but on the one hand there's the fact that Gang War feels very much like day-1 DLC, and on the other, well... right now, it kinda seems like a good idea to just use the new core rules and maybe the new campaign rules with the Oldcromunda stuff (gangs, trading post, hired guns.... well, everything else). I'm not worried at all about balance, after all, so...

In other news, I'm starting to assemble the scenery I have:




I still have at home enough stuff to build another 1 or two GW buildings, I've only assembled about half my Mantic stuff, out of the table is all the Newcromunda stuff from the txo boxes and a box of the new pipes (I'm thinking about getting a second box) and there's two Promethium refineries flying to me from Wayland

 Albertorius wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm liking what there is so far of the game (full disclosure: I've bought two core boxes, the cards and a crapton of scenery for it, plus Gang War), but on the one hand there's the fact that Gang War feels very much like day-1 DLC, and on the other, well... right now, it kinda seems like a good idea to just use the new core rules and maybe the new campaign rules with the Oldcromunda stuff (gangs, trading post, hired guns.... well, everything else). I'm not worried at all about balance, after all, so...

No doubt in my mind this explains what gw is thinking - they have time to split up the releases for necromunda to keep new players interested and attract fresh blood, while older players are fully capable of just printing up the old rules and playing with that.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

The difference is that they are actually new rules. You can play 30k with just one or two red books, both of which were released simultaneously. When they released betrayal you could already play, regardless of whether your legion was in the book (I started my Imperial Fists at that point).

The issue now is that they have already written the rules but just aren't giving them to us. It feels like they are releasing an incomplete product.

How do you know what is and isn't final and what is and is not in flux according to how the game evolves over time? I could, hypothetically, see 'them' amending and changing things as the game plays out and reports back to ensure that early strong factors or weak factors get countered by later gangs and that the continuing releases act as a living rulebook to provide a better gaming experience.

I'm a fan of this idea and that it's profit contribution gives Specialist Games a continued seat at the table for new releases and production scheduling against it's far bigger brothers in AoS and 40k.

Mandragola is entirely correct. This is an intentionally incomplete product, entirely analogous to the worst excesses of DLC in the videogame industry. It is bad enough that the core rules do not contain comprehensive rules for all 6 house gangs, but I shelled out for Gang War as well. I am apoplectic with anger, and no I do not spend my time looking for any excuse to flame on GW. I was really excited for this release and wanted to get behind it 100%, even planning a campaign to introduce new players to the game.

Despite my anger I will calmly answer your question and state my case here for why it is an unethically incomplete release (yes, business ethics are a thing, irrespective of a business' primary goal of increasing profits).

Firstly, the armoury/trading post available to the two starting gangs is illogically incomplete. Even if they insisted on witholding rules for what are currently "legacy gangs" (gang tactics, new and unique wargear), the way they have done this means you have ommissions like no boltguns, even when a supposedly rarer combi-needler is in the game from the get go. Some omissions feel like they may be a mistake (after the Trading Post section, armor types are detailed and it is said that "only one armor type may be worn at a time", implying that gangers may swap armor, but no costs or rarity for this armor is mentioned in the trading post section. If they patch this up by including it in Gang War 2, then I am being gouged the price of a second book to have the printed rules for something the first book seems to say I should already be able to do.

Secondly, Gang War 2 is already teased, so I assume already at least near completion. I would buy the balance argument you present for something scheduled to come later, but this was clearly planned. Why am I forced to buy an extra book to use hired guns, when these rules are so evidently already in existence?

It may have been acceptable to give each gang it's own book, just like Codexes in 40k, as well as releasing content that notably diverged from core rules (such as outlaw gangs, bounties, ash waste/vehicles, etc), but the way they have written and released in means you simply do not get a complete working game, with a working trading post, hired guns and the like, even if you shelled out for both the starter box is simply indefensible.

To make matters even worse, as others have noted, Gang War 2 seems to only include rules for Orlock's. This means that if they continue releasing Gang War books with 1 House Gang, but rules such as Hired Guns that will force anyone wanting to manage a proper campaign to buy them even if they don't wish to use that particular gang, we will have to buy 5 books minimum to have just the true core game and House Gangs. This still leaves them extra hired guns and dramatis personae, scavvies, redemptionists, spyrers, guilders, enforcers, ash wastes (just off the top of my head) before they even have to *shock horror* actually come up with something original. Never mind the obvious pocket-gouge, this will delay people running campaigns where all gangs are properly included (don't even bring up that mess of a PDF they put on the site), and be an absolute nightmare to consult rules from that many books. I shelled out for Gang War wanting to have something complete and printed, but it looks as though I will end up having to write up my own compendium of it all anyway!

So go on, corporate apologists, just try and explain to me how any of this is even remotely OK? As for the rest of us - who can recognize that while this may be a game of plastic toy soldiers, it is nonetheless important to protect consumer rights and power - what are we going to do about it?

Lol you should go to open day and have a chat with the guys making this, it’s really not a corporate mentality.

Consumer rights?

Consumer power?

Buy, or buy not. There is no whine.

There we go. That's both of them covered right there. Unless you're talking about regulated financial type services - in which case I'm still your man. But as GW's plastic crack ain't regulated....Buy or Buy Not. There is no whine.

Once again, old specialist games didn't make enough money, so it died. Selling one box and a gang isn't profitable. If it isn't profitable it isn't supportable.

Does it suck having stuff split up? Yeah. Does it justify being "apoplectic with anger" not really, unless you did absolutely no research before you bought the game as it was pretty common knowledge what the release schedule was.

Seriously, if you get this angry over a game why even bother? Make the most of what you have and use your head to get around what you don't like. Its a game. If you enjoy it play it, if not use the new resources (terrain and models) and the old rules. Or don't and research your purchases in future.

The release schedule will let me actually paint the stuff - build terrain - afford to buy it all.
At the open day I was told that they had put it all up on a white board that week and had a round 5 years worth of work ahead to do everything they want for necromunda.
1 they don’t have the financial security or manpower to magically release the all that, the whole game if you will. 2 If they plop out the rules first before the minis then over the next couple of years every third party and there dog will produce models in gw’s stead, that’s a lot of lost revenue.
Didn’t everyone want them to support there games? Not just one and done? Well that’s now spread there resources between AoS 40k necromunda bloodbowl horushersy shadespire. And there more ip’s to come.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just....pack your rulebook. Sorted.

Don't want to pay for the rules? Don't play the game.

See, that's exactly the problem we were discussing - not people refusing to pay for rules, but people compiling rules from a ridiculously spread out number of sources for the sake of convenience and then being subjected to self-righteous "prove you own them, poor!" nonsense.

A lot of folk wouldn't be gamers today if they hadn't spent their youth borrowing and photocopying stuff off their mates or club acquaintances, so hop off that high horse eh.

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

Except that's garbage, and you know fine well it's garbage. You can buy Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal and play Horus Heresy games. No muss, no fuss, no extras, one single book. Is it the *best* version of Heresy gaming? No. But it is feature complete and functional out of the box and includes everything you expect would be there in a product in that setting. The follow up books add to that experience, they expand it, they deepen it, but not a single one of them is necessary to make the game function at the expected level, not one of them feels like they are holding content hostage to make you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn't have.

If the Newcromunda release had consisted of the complete, core Necromunda experience instead of a cut-down mess - even split into the boxed game and separate Gang War book just as they did - with basic rules for the six houses, a complete Trading Post and postgame sequence and so on, most of this discussion wouldn't even be happening. If they were following the Heresy model, that's the release we would have gotten, and then the follow up Gang War books would have been optional but appealing content that enriched the game and that people wanted to buy - expanded rules for the House gangs with their more unique equipment, new scenarios and terrain rules, new campaign settings, all the fancy new addons to the postgame that they're telling us will be in Gang War, and eventually the non-House gang rules. They'd probably have had to drop to three books a year if you stripped out the stuff that should have been in the initial release, but anyone who thinks the margins on this are so low that losing out on the sales of one printed supplement a year would kill it is having a laugh - as per usual they make their money on the models and the "collector" nonsense.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

The difference is that they are actually new rules. You can play 30k with just one or two red books, both of which were released simultaneously. When they released betrayal you could already play, regardless of whether your legion was in the book (I started my Imperial Fists at that point).

The issue now is that they have already written the rules but just aren't giving them to us. It feels like they are releasing an incomplete product.

How do you know what is and isn't final and what is and is not in flux according to how the game evolves over time? I could, hypothetically, see 'them' amending and changing things as the game plays out and reports back to ensure that early strong factors or weak factors get countered by later gangs and that the continuing releases act as a living rulebook to provide a better gaming experience.

I'm a fan of this idea and that it's profit contribution gives Specialist Games a continued seat at the table for new releases and production scheduling against it's far bigger brothers in AoS and 40k.

I know that the rules for gangs are not final and that's the problem to me. I think it's more stupid than unethical to release a campaign system in this way, where only 1/3 of players can actually join the campaign while the rest wait for their models to come out.

It's a choice to drip feed the models out. They could have done the full release of the game in a month, just as they did for Primaris marines or Death Guard. It wouldn't have been more sprues than one of those releases. And I know it's only a specialist game and not that huge a market, but those armies are both just 1 army out of the ~20 that exist for 40k. I think it's pretty comparable.

Then everyone who wanted to play a campaign could do so straight away. You could actually start it then and there with everyone on a level playing field.

As for updates and errata, I'm all for that. I'd have been fine with them bringing out a meaningful expansion in 6 months or a year, like the general's handbook and chapter approved. By all means rebalance points values or weapon profiles, skills or whatever else. But gang war 2 isn't that. It's not going to be changing existing stuff, just filling in some of the blanks in that stuff.

Why don't people have more than one army and play more than one campaign? By the time the Orlocks come out, you'll have plenty of opportunity to have played a campaign with a Goliath or Escher team (maybe both) - and since you have to buy the core box for the ruleset and dice already, you basically can't not have them.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just....pack your rulebook. Sorted.

Don't want to pay for the rules? Don't play the game.

See, that's exactly the problem we were discussing - not people refusing to pay for rules, but people compiling rules from a ridiculously spread out number of sources for the sake of convenience and then being subjected to self-righteous "prove you own them, poor!" nonsense.

A lot of folk wouldn't be gamers today if they hadn't spent their youth borrowing and photocopying stuff off their mates or club acquaintances, so hop off that high horse eh.

 gorgon wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I don't think the physical act of carrying is the core issue. It's the gouging and splitting what was one product before into a year's worth of part-products.

I know, right? Imagine if they'd taken 30K and spaced out its content and rules into a series of 300 page, hyper-expensive tomes released yearly over a period of 15 years.

Except that's garbage, and you know fine well it's garbage. You can buy Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal and play Horus Heresy games. No muss, no fuss, no extras, one single book. Is it the *best* version of Heresy gaming? No. But it is feature complete and functional out of the box and includes everything you expect would be there in a product in that setting. The follow up books add to that experience, they expand it, they deepen it, but not a single one of them is necessary to make the game function at the expected level, not one of them feels like they are holding content hostage to make you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn't have.

If the Newcromunda release had consisted of the complete, core Necromunda experience instead of a cut-down mess - even split into the boxed game and separate Gang War book just as they did - with basic rules for the six houses, a complete Trading Post and postgame sequence and so on, most of this discussion wouldn't even be happening. If they were following the Heresy model, that's the release we would have gotten, and then the follow up Gang War books would have been optional but appealing content that enriched the game and that people wanted to buy - expanded rules for the House gangs with their more unique equipment, new scenarios and terrain rules, new campaign settings, all the fancy new addons to the postgame that they're telling us will be in Gang War, and eventually the non-House gang rules. They'd probably have had to drop to three books a year if you stripped out the stuff that should have been in the initial release, but anyone who thinks the margins on this are so low that losing out on the sales of one printed supplement a year would kill it is having a laugh - as per usual they make their money on the models and the "collector" nonsense.

Sorry Yodhrin, I really like you as a poster on Dakka, but are you saying you cant play the new necromunda straight out of the box?

I could do that, or I could just buy nothing now until the gang I want and all the rules come out and join in then.

My point is that this is bad policy, not that it's immoral - though I don't think it's especially moral either. I think it's stupid to sell a campaign game without all the rules that all the players need to actually join in the campaign. It's dead on arrival.

At least with bloodbowl we actually got the full rules from the start - albeit with the purchase of a cheap second book. We could build teams from old models, convert them from warhammer stuff (my dark elves are made from Corsairs) or whatever. And because we were doing that, GW even sold some miniatures. But none of that is true of necromunda.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Except that's garbage, and you know fine well it's garbage. You can buy Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal and play Horus Heresy games. No muss, no fuss, no extras, one single book. Is it the *best* version of Heresy gaming? No. But it is feature complete and functional out of the box and includes everything you expect would be there in a product in that setting. The follow up books add to that experience, they expand it, they deepen it, but not a single one of them is necessary to make the game function at the expected level, not one of them feels like they are holding content hostage to make you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn't have.

Yeah, you got me, you scamp.

It's totally different, and no one has ever seen 30K players demanding more support. It's been nothing but pure contentment after Betrayal. WS players are happier than a clam knowing it's only until 2019 before they can properly play their Legion like everyone else. Seven years is nothing in geologic time. Late 2018 is practically here already for BA and DA players. And shoot, I don't think IF and AL players even want models for their primarchs. Why would they?

Meanwhile, NM can't actually be played out the box. One is just left to sigh and stare forlornly at the contents scattered across the tabletop. And when FW refused to make get-you-by rules for the old gangs publicly available, that was the ultimate feth you. Cripes, they're one step away from breaking into our homes and poisoning our pets.

WHY WON'T SOMEONE DO SOMETHING!

Got my copy today. With the Escher sprues in hand, and seeing how fine and delicate the pieces are, the scale debate seems in retrospect, even sillier than it actually was. Wonderful kit. Can’t wait to get these built. I’ve always been of the mindset “withold judgement ‘til the product’s in hand” but in recent experience, this may be the best example of why.

More details about cults (from BOLS, sorry)

via Garro (Facebook 11-25-2017)

Genestealer Cults and Chaos Cults gang rules, and wargear will be coming to Necromunda early next year, after Orlock and gang war 2.

these will be coming through a pair of White Dwarf articles sometime in the spring (march-may). these will also include various additional wargear which other gangs will be able to take.

regarding the GCults; this version will focus on the mining cults of the ashwastes coming into contact with a genestealer, so will use the Neophyte Hybrids kit as its base. expect to see a larger more detailed cults gang at a later date when they explore hive secondus. but this will help provide an additional two gangs by the beginning of the summer.

don’t have much details on the chaos cults rules, but there are chaos tokens, and a tile with an eight point star in blood in the new expansion set of tiles coming with GW2. so would expect some cult ritual mission of some sort.

Garro on 11-26-2017

got some more in depth about the Genestealer and chaos cult gang lists coming next year.

-they’ll both be appearing in White Dwarf.

-both gangs will be based around the existing kits (No new models)

-Genestealer cults (GC) will focus around the neophite-hybrids with a sub-primus leader, and able to take Aberrants in the gangs. they’ll have full access to the entire GC armoury including weapons in the acolytes kits. these weapons should be added to the trading posts lists in the article, but will be in Gang War 3 (GW3) for certain.

-Chaos cults will be god neutral. but will be able to preform a ritual between games, to one of the gods. if successful, your gang gets a buff based on the god, and if it fails, a random member of your gang (other than the leader) turns into a spawn, and remains like it (spawn is added to the gang roster). you get bonuses to the ritual roll, if you stick to the same god, and get negative modifers if you chop and change.

-both gangs will have full gang rules, and access to trading posts .etc so will be able to include other non-faction gear as campaigns go on.

-both factions will have a low-power psyker option.



Summer will be a good time to make a campaign With 4 full gangs, 3 "renegades" gangs and big market.

Dread Master wrote:
Got my copy today. With the Escher sprues in hand, and seeing how fine and delicate the pieces are, the scale debate seems in retrospect, even sillier than it actually was. Wonderful kit. Can’t wait to get these built. I’ve always been of the mindset “withold judgement ‘til the product’s in hand” but in recent experience, this may be the best example of why.

You can do both. There's nothing wrong with having an initial reaction as long as you are willing to keep an open mind and revise it if the facts change.

I actually bought a box of Escher on good faith and it turns out they are nice miniatures at least for conversion (I don't like their style straight out of the box), but I've lost what little faith I had in GW's presentation along the way. I'm not normally a fan of GW's promotional pictures, but I think the ones for the Escher are especially bad.

Doesn't seem like the new Necromunda is going to take off in my groups due to the rules situation. Shame, really. Maybe we'll have another look once the rules are complete.

To take a short break from the eternal discussion on the release schedule and actually talk about the game for once...

Who else is checking out the rules? Has anyone played a campaign yet? I’m reading through the books now and I’m seriously impressed. It looks to me as though they took the best bits of old Necro, removed or improved the worst, and added a whole bunch of great stuff that immediately stands out to us Necro veterans as “of course! Why didn’t I think of that...”. The new campaign system seems super fun and I love how they’ve incorporated “seasons” into the main rules, with a proper end to a campaign (with huge potential for additions in future supplements), in-between campaign stuff and rules for bringing your gang (or an off-shoot) into the next campaign. After reading this I’m VERY excited for future Gang War books as these systems seem busy it to be endlessly customisable with fun, narrative-creating additions! Huge kudos to Andy Hoare and his team!

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:


Sorry Yodhrin, I really like you as a poster on Dakka, but are you saying you cant play the new necromunda straight out of the box?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You can play Underhive straight out of the box, a fun but limited game that depicts a series of fights between two specific gangs, but not Necromunda. Necromunda means the six houses engaging in campaign gameplay with a feature-complete postgame sequence and access to all the commonplace equipment we had last time around.

 gorgon wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Except that's garbage, and you know fine well it's garbage. You can buy Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal and play Horus Heresy games. No muss, no fuss, no extras, one single book. Is it the *best* version of Heresy gaming? No. But it is feature complete and functional out of the box and includes everything you expect would be there in a product in that setting. The follow up books add to that experience, they expand it, they deepen it, but not a single one of them is necessary to make the game function at the expected level, not one of them feels like they are holding content hostage to make you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn't have.

Yeah, you got me, you scamp.

It's totally different, and no one has ever seen 30K players demanding more support. It's been nothing but pure contentment after Betrayal. WS players are happier than a clam knowing it's only until 2019 before they can properly play their Legion like everyone else. Seven years is nothing in geologic time. Late 2018 is practically here already for BA and DA players. And shoot, I don't think IF and AL players even want models for their primarchs. Why would they?

Meanwhile, NM can't actually be played out the box. One is just left to sigh and stare forlornly at the contents scattered across the tabletop. And when FW refused to make get-you-by rules for the old gangs publicly available, that was the ultimate feth you. Cripes, they're one step away from breaking into our homes and poisoning our pets.

WHY WON'T SOMEONE DO SOMETHING!

Good try bub, but hyperbolic sarcasm doesn't disguise the fact you're not actually addressing anything. You use those to add flavour to an argument where you're in the right, not in a desperate attempt to shift goalposts around to disguise the vacuousness of your position.

100% contentment of the playerbase was not a feature of my argument. Players having no desire for additional content was not part of my argument. The argument was that Betrayal provided a functional way to play games in the Horus Heresy. You can pick up nothing except Betrayal and play an entire Heresy campaign(indeed, many of us did) with the rules provided.

Buying Underhive and Gang War does not provide a complete, basic Necromunda experience. There are only two gangs. Big chunks of the equipment lists are missing. If FW had released Betrayal with half an army list that was missing line infantry units and inexplicably didn't contain Flamers and Plasma Guns, your objection to my comparison might begin to approach having some vague semblance of validity, but they didn't - you can play Horus Heresy games without making a single purchase beyond Betrayal, you can't even buy your guys fething chainswords in Newcromunda without purchasing at least one additional book at some unspecified future point.

Now, care to address the actual argument(ideally, with the basic level of civility of an adult human)?

 Mymearan wrote:
To take a short break from the eternal discussion on the release schedule and actually talk about the game for once...

Who else is checking out the rules? Has anyone played a campaign yet? I’m reading through the books now and I’m seriously impressed. It looks to me as though they took the best bits of old Necro, removed or improved the worst, and added a whole bunch of great stuff that immediately stands out to us Necro veterans as “of course! Why didn’t I think of that...”. The new campaign system seems super fun and I love how they’ve incorporated “seasons” into the main rules, with a proper end to a campaign (with huge potential for additions in future supplements), in-between campaign stuff and rules for bringing your gang (or an off-shoot) into the next campaign. After reading this I’m VERY excited for future Gang War books as these systems seem busy it to be endlessly customisable with fun, narrative-creating additions! Huge kudos to Andy Hoare and his team!

Well my copy is still stuck in some Wayland/DHL nightmare, but all the changes seem pretty much perfect to the core rules.

The weapons seem like the oddest part, on that some are just terrible and some are obviously the best weapons. Hopefully that's something that gets ironed out

When it comes down to it, how different is this to Codex or Army books really?

For me, it again all comes down to the content of each volume. It’s one thing to add cost to a game, quite another to add value.

Gang War 1 works for me. It’s added a poop load of rules to a boxed game intended to be a complete experience in itself.

Gang War 2 promises a new Gang, plus further rules. If you’ll excuse the pun, on paper that sounds reasonable enough.

White Dwarf will carry rules for Chaos and Genestealer Cults. I’m ok with that.

Gang War 3? Well, it seems after Orlocks it’s Van Saar, so there’s some interest from me there. But, I want more. I can’t define what ‘acceptable’ content would be for me. GW are creative types, I’m not. But if the Van Saar rules are the only reason for me to buy it, that’s gonna be an issue. I don’t want to be paying near Codex prices for limited content.

From there? Much the same.

But now is the time to be feeding back to GW. We can’t tell them what we don’t want, because we’ve limited info on what’s planned. We can of course tell them what we do want to see. As YMMV, I’m not gonna say what you should want etc. I will again encourage peeps to engage with GW though.

Chances are at the very least each Gang War book will contain the rules for a gang, more missions (to promote the next set of tiles) and whatever type of hired gun they're putting out next, be it bounty hunters, Ratskin scouts or the mentioned non-combat hangers on like cooks and what have you.

I'd also love to see them toss in fluff while we're at it.

The current release schedule looks something like this:
Q1 Orlock, Gang War 2, 3 hired gun models, Orlock weapon sprue, Badzone Delta-7 tile set (including duplicate arc template set)
2 White Dwarf articles containing rules for Genestealer Cult and Chaos Cultist gangs using existing Neophyte Hybrid and Cultist kits
Q2 Van Saar, Gang War 3, Goliath/Escher weapons sprue
White Dwarf article containing rules for a bounty hunter gang
Q3 Cawdor, Gang War 4
Q4 Delaque, Gang War 5

They also apparently told retailers they have an 18 month release schedule planned and this could indicate two quarters of releases after Delaque already planned (unless it suddenly flops).

I'm fine with this release schedule, though it does mean I will be waiting for a while.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Good try bub, but hyperbolic sarcasm doesn't disguise the fact you're not actually addressing anything. You use those to add flavour to an argument where you're in the right, not in a desperate attempt to shift goalposts around to disguise the vacuousness of your position.

Oh no. My intent was to mock the hyperbolic bluster of individuals whose posting styles equate to pounding one piano key repeatedly for months on end. Hope that makes things clearer.

Here's the Cliffs Notes version of the rest -- any vast difference in the two situations only exists due your skewed personal definition of 'complete game experience'. You're obviously already highly committed to your particular point of view, so why would I even bother to fully engage with you on the topic? This is why I have you on ignore....not because you're an offensive poster but because usually there's just no point in trying to exchange ideas with you.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Inquisitor Kallus wrote:


Sorry Yodhrin, I really like you as a poster on Dakka, but are you saying you cant play the new necromunda straight out of the box?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You can play Underhive straight out of the box, a fun but limited game that depicts a series of fights between two specific gangs, but not Necromunda. Necromunda means the six houses engaging in campaign gameplay with a feature-complete postgame sequence and access to all the commonplace equipment we had last time around.

 gorgon wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Except that's garbage, and you know fine well it's garbage. You can buy Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal and play Horus Heresy games. No muss, no fuss, no extras, one single book. Is it the *best* version of Heresy gaming? No. But it is feature complete and functional out of the box and includes everything you expect would be there in a product in that setting. The follow up books add to that experience, they expand it, they deepen it, but not a single one of them is necessary to make the game function at the expected level, not one of them feels like they are holding content hostage to make you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn't have.

Yeah, you got me, you scamp.

It's totally different, and no one has ever seen 30K players demanding more support. It's been nothing but pure contentment after Betrayal. WS players are happier than a clam knowing it's only until 2019 before they can properly play their Legion like everyone else. Seven years is nothing in geologic time. Late 2018 is practically here already for BA and DA players. And shoot, I don't think IF and AL players even want models for their primarchs. Why would they?

Meanwhile, NM can't actually be played out the box. One is just left to sigh and stare forlornly at the contents scattered across the tabletop. And when FW refused to make get-you-by rules for the old gangs publicly available, that was the ultimate feth you. Cripes, they're one step away from breaking into our homes and poisoning our pets.

WHY WON'T SOMEONE DO SOMETHING!

Good try bub, but hyperbolic sarcasm doesn't disguise the fact you're not actually addressing anything. You use those to add flavour to an argument where you're in the right, not in a desperate attempt to shift goalposts around to disguise the vacuousness of your position.

100% contentment of the playerbase was not a feature of my argument. Players having no desire for additional content was not part of my argument. The argument was that Betrayal provided a functional way to play games in the Horus Heresy. You can pick up nothing except Betrayal and play an entire Heresy campaign(indeed, many of us did) with the rules provided.

Buying Underhive and Gang War does not provide a complete, basic Necromunda experience. There are only two gangs. Big chunks of the equipment lists are missing. If FW had released Betrayal with half an army list that was missing line infantry units and inexplicably didn't contain Flamers and Plasma Guns, your objection to my comparison might begin to approach having some vague semblance of validity, but they didn't - you can play Horus Heresy games without making a single purchase beyond Betrayal, you can't even buy your guys fething chainswords in Newcromunda without purchasing at least one additional book at some unspecified future point.

Now, care to address the actual argument(ideally, with the basic level of civility of an adult human)?

Technically, assuming a couple of brand new players had wanted to start playing Horus Heresy, they would have had to buy a copy of the 40k 6th edition rules, a copy of Betrayal, some suitable terrain and a couple of 1500pt armies (since that book encourages that as a minimum army size). They would only have had to spend several hundred pounds to play “properly”.

They still wouldn’t have had any campaign rules, but would have had 4 complete factions and some scenarios to play through.

Underhive gives you 2 factions, enough minis to get started and some cardboard tiles to play on, plus a series of scenarios to play through for a fraction of the cost.

Deleted

At the Open Day last weekend(?) IIRC.