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The biggest advantage of spirit seers is not having two wounds, warlocks on foot that perils are a pain! 66% chance of having your head explode is not great! Having two warlocks on foot next to each other is really asking for a chain reaction of mortal wounds!

No denying that the spiritseer is basicaly a batter warlock. But you cannot seer council with a seer.

If you base your strategy around powers going off you will need seer council for at least 1 maybe two turns to ensure whatever power your startegy relies on go off.

The only time I would take a seer is if he goes in a wave seprent with some wraiths unless I have 10 points to spare and am not relying on psychic powers and have another warlock for seer council. Of course if I do a bielt tan detatchemnt I would take a spirit seer for the spirit stone. However I also rate a bonesinger as simte support. Gives heal d3 wounds for wraiths/tanks or a a full smite.I like to run both. A healing wave serpent can really demoralises opponents.

Thats my take on it. Obviously peoples will disagree and its not their playstyle. I find that relying on powers going off one their own is too unreliable. Even with seer council you still can fail but the odds are much much greater towards sucess.

Seer council is great, but I tend to use a biker warlock in conjunction with a faolchu's wing farseer for the offensive powers whilst keeping a spirit seer in the back field for conceal/quicken buffs if required. The extra wound and movement on the biker is well worth the 12 PTS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also love the bonesinger, techmarine/apothecary with smite is a great combo, perfect for aggressive lists with applicable units.

Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?

Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?

Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?

Probability of rolling a 7+ on 2 dice, rerolling the first failed test is about 82%.

Rolling a 6+ on 2 dice is about 72%.

However that doesn't take into account the effect of the modifier on rolling a super smite (especially for the Farseer), or the +1 making powers harder to deny etc. The numbers probably change as the required warp charge changes too.

Probably a pretty close call, its the difference between costing you 1CP or a relic I'd say.

Spartacus wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?

Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?

Probability of rolling a 7+ on 2 dice, rerolling the first failed test is about 82%.

Rolling a 6+ on 2 dice is about 72%.

However that doesn't take into account the effect of the modifier on rolling a super smite (especially for the Farseer), or the +1 making powers harder to deny etc. The numbers probably change as the required warp charge changes too.

Probably a pretty close call, its the difference between costing you 1CP or a relic I'd say.

Cheers! It's an interesting little dilemma, I'll write up a list this evening again to see what wiggle room I have.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?

Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?

The Biel Tan spirit stone is pretty awesome. The problem is getting that Biel Tan detachment (or running a mixed detachment) in a competitive setting.

Its not that they have a bad craftworld trait. Its that Alaitoc is better as is Ulthwe (access to Eldrad and Black Guardians and FnP)



One other thing...the Spiritseer isn't as mobile as a Warlock on a bike. If you give him that stone then you can't give him Folchu's wing to make him reasonably mobile. Getting in perfect position to get a power off can often times make it so the opponent can't even attempt to deny. Big advantages goto the "seer council" strat that need to be taken into account.

 Ovechkin8 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Yeah the seer council stratagem is really good and increases the reliability of powers on the farseer but I like having the reroll on the spiritseer with the Biel-Tan spirit stone. I don't know the maths behind it so having a +1 or a reroll better?

Bonesingers are pretty sweet but I'm trying to build around a battalion but I could cut the spiritseer down to a warlock and drop something else to squeeze one in for some smite power?

The Biel Tan spirit stone is pretty awesome. The problem is getting that Biel Tan detachment (or running a mixed detachment) in a competitive setting.

Its not that they have a bad craftworld trait. Its that Alaitoc is better as is Ulthwe (access to Eldrad and Black Guardians and FnP)

One other thing...the Spiritseer isn't as mobile as a Warlock on a bike. If you give him that stone then you can't give him Folchu's wing to make him reasonably mobile. Getting in perfect position to get a power off can often times make it so the opponent can't even attempt to deny. Big advantages goto the "seer council" strat that need to be taken into account.

To me it has to do with selecting your psyker for a purpose.

I typically run a 2 man warlock conclave (they hide in a building and hopefully get forgotten by my opponent... works like 90% of the time due to threat overload) so I can use the strat for double range. This is most often my Protect/Jinx and Quicken/Restrain powers (for my jetbike/spear list). I will also typically run 2 spiritseers (one gets reroll relic), one with protect/jinx, and one with Quicken/Restrain. They wander behind my screens providing psychic support or smite when needed.

By duplicating my powers I can ensure that if one gets killed I still have access to my much needed powers, but also I can use the other half of the power as well. I sacrifice variety for efficiency and redundancy.

I have also seen people running warlock skyrunners with the biel tan artifact for the increased mobility and wounds. They don't get big boy smite, but if their purpose is dedicated to casting a different power then that's fine with me. No +1 to cast this way, but mobility and reroll is still great!

In the end I think all the options are viable in the right list, you just have to build your tactics around it.

If a psyker is going to sit deep in my deployment zone... and zone out deep strikers... then he'll probably be a warlock (i dont care about smite in this case) and he'll get a cool power (conceal for example). 18" and not requiring LOS is super powerful for those powers.

You make a great overall point in that these decisions can’t be made in a vacuum. It very much depends on playstyle and how it fits into the grand scheme of your army!

So I have been thinking again on my lists and with some input from the army list thread I've come up with the following:

I changed the war walkers to have starcannons by dropping the underslung cannons on two of the serpents and gave the guardians a shuriken cannon instead of a scatter laser. The starcannons on the walkers beef them up a bit and they'd be a valid guide target if I can get near them with my farseer.

Biel-Tan Swordwind Battalion
HQ
Farseer (powers TBC)
Spiritseer (warlord, spirit stone of anath'lan, Biel-Tan natural leader, protect/jinx)

Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs are stock)
10 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon platform

Dedicated Transport
3x Wave Serpents, 1 w/ underslung cannon

Heavy Support
3x War Walkers, all with starcannons

Total = 999pts

I've taken on board your points about the warlock and I don't feel the spiritseer contributes as much to the game plan. I could make the warlock a jetlock for added speed which might be preferable to some other upgrades I have now. A jetlock would put me 8 pts over so something would need to be dropped to squeeze it in. I also changed the lances to star cannons on the Hunter Exarch for more shots and free up points for a targeting matrix on one prism and dual catapults on the DA Exarchs.

Alaitoc Battalion
HQ
Farseer (warlord, faolchu's wing, powers TBC)
Warlock (protect/jinx)

Troops
2x 5 Dire Avengers (Exarchs have 2 catapults)
20 Guardians w/ shuriken cannon platform
5 Rangers

Heavy Support
2x Fire Prisms, 1 w/ crystal targeting matrix

Flyer
Crimson Hunter Exarch w/ 2 starcannons

Total = 996pts

Let me know what you think as I'd also like some input on Warlord traits for the second list and psychic powers in general for both lists.

The first one should be Doom, Executioner; the second Doom, Guide & Seer of Vector for free re-roll or replace CH Exarch with regular CH, drop Matrix and upgrade Warlock to Spiritseer, make him Warlord and give him free re-roll.

From the first list I'd drop one WS, that would allow to push ~15 more elfs with rifles into the list. One stack of 20 can DS.

From the second I'd drop Rangers, there is really no point to have only 5 snipers, with 2 Prisms sitting in your deploy anyway.

You don't say what you're arming your serpents with. You may be able to make adjustments there if you need points. Also, IMHO, if you're going to put the walkers in Biel-Tan then you should consider using Shuriken Cannons on them for the free re-rolls.

Shadenuat wrote:The first one should be Doom, Executioner; the second Doom, Guide & Seer of Vector for free re-roll or replace CH Exarch with regular CH, drop Matrix and upgrade Warlock to Spiritseer, make him Warlord and give him free re-roll.

From the first list I'd drop one WS, that would allow to push ~15 more elfs with rifles into the list. One stack of 20 can DS.

From the second I'd drop Rangers, there is really no point to have only 5 snipers, with 2 Prisms sitting in your deploy anyway.

Cheers, that seems to be a good compromise with the CH, but wouldn't that mean BLs would be hitting on 4s? The Exarch would get around that but I've never played with a flyer before so I don't know. The powers are what I usually run but I didn't think of that warlord trait.

By elves with rifles I assume you mean rangers? I don't have any of those and I don't know if I like dropping a wave serpent for bodies, I like their durability but I could be convinced otherwise!

What would you replace the rangers with in the second list?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:You don't say what you're arming your serpents with. You may be able to make adjustments there if you need points. Also, IMHO, if you're going to put the walkers in Biel-Tan then you should consider using Shuriken Cannons on them for the free re-rolls.

Wave Serpents come stock with shuriken cannons so it doesn't need to be mentioned. Someone said to consider changing the shuriken cannons to starcannons for a bit more punch but yeah, I had those on my previous list.

Any Crimson Hunter is BS2+, so you hit on 3s.

More rifles like more Guardians, Avengers, etc.

WS is indeed a tough transport, but it's expensive and it doesn't do much damage. You take it do deny enemy their damage and for some extra functionality (like charging enemy shooting units) and to protect expensive units/characters. Guardians and Avengers are not very expensive.

A list with that many Serpents on 1000 pts will be tough, but can just end up in a boring routine where you can't kill enemy and enemy can't kill you.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Any Crimson Hunter is BS2+, so you hit on 3s.

More rifles like more Guardians, Avengers, etc.

WS is indeed a tough transport, but it's expensive and it doesn't do much damage. You take it do deny enemy their damage and for some extra functionality (like charging enemy shooting units) and to protect expensive units/characters. Guardians and Avengers are not very expensive.

A list with that many Serpents on 1000 pts will be tough, but can just end up in a boring routine where you can't kill enemy and enemy can't kill you.

I've managed to do the lords work using the d3 mortal wounds from serpent shields. If carefully used in combination with the stratagem that lets you use one you previously fired it can be debilitating. I wouldn't blow them all in the top of turn 1, but it certainly can be enough to keep some baddies from getting to close with a character.

Serpent Shield + Smites can be brutal.

It's useful when Serpents are already in a degradation and if you can hit expensive models, but if most stuff you need to kill are just the very balanced 4 to 7 ppm infantry in cover/with invul/other stuff you still need some dakka.

I ran 3 Serpents for 1000 points. It's frustrating to some opponents but it takes a while to use your leftover ~500 points to focus fire enemy off the table. I found running 3 a lot better starting at 1500 points.

I dont hear a lot of people talk about banshees and jain zah very much on here, i used them this weekend to amazing results.

1st game a squad of banshees ran across the table t1, around the enemy flank, and charged / killed 2 techmarine gunners using thunderfire cannons thanks to 1. Auto advance 6" to 2. Quicken to 3. Court of the young king.

That small squad of 6 then proceeded to just run amuck in my opponents back field, we were playing beach head mission from chapter approved and them getting there t1 and threatening their objective really helped win the game easily. T2 i deep struck another 6 woman banshee squad in and used court of the young king again to get them in and support.

2nd game was against a space wolf / grey knights player. Those grey knight strats are devistating on some of the stuff they can take.

But jain zah was the star of that show. She ended up killing a chapter aincent in term armor, 9 of the troops with storm bolters and double falcion power swords, a wolf guard battle leader, and a wolf lord. Her speed, resilience, and just plain strength, can not be denied as long as she isnt going against something way above her paygrade (1st game she got caught out in the open and was nuked by a lucky multimelta shot while trying to chase down a venerable dreadnaught)

Jain Zar is like a squad of Banshees packed in one model but with even more good rules.

I am really starting to enjoy the banshees, they are the perfect bully unit. Small, cheap, fast as hell, and really able to keep my opponent on the defensive when they thought they were in the clear. Give the exarch the executioner and they can reliably do damage to any meq units out there. And jain... her rule of going first came into play a few times, its very nice when it comes up.

I really love my banshees as well. The only problem with them is S3. To counter that I need to dedicate a Warlock to support them with the +1 to damage ability. I would love it if their swords gave them +1S so that they could really stand toe to toe with T4 units.

Idk, my 5 women squads were holding their own vs t4 units that weren't too good in cc. I think they truly are bullies, only picking a fight against those that cant fight back well. If they do find themselves in a prolonged fight (ie one thats not been decided by their 1st charge and swing) or against something that is also a combat monster (vanguard vets with storm shields and chainswords or beserkers for example) then either the warlock power or doom is really going to come in handy. Still with their speed they shouldnt get into that position.

What are people's thoughts on multiple units of swooping hawks jumping on and off the table dealing mortal wounds and pumping out a ton of anti infantry firepower?

Are we now allowed to talk about Banshees being good without getting put down by a theory crafter that has never used them? Is hell freezing over?

Banshees are excellent. Just not in the way many people think they are. Because they are sold as a melee specialist unit. They are not. But they excell at tagging shooty units, disrupting the enemy backfield and assasinating opportune targets. Lightning fast, ignore overwatch and surprisingly resilient in melee (-1tohit). They are very much a tactical finesse unit. I love them.
I found you need 7-10 in a unit to really have enough of them to wrap around enemy units for great effect.

They do however hit like kids swinging a wet noodle at a ravenous tiger.

I like 2x5 with Executioners in different Serpents. Make more targets for the enemy.

They hit okay against models which cost 8 ppm or more and rely on armor/cover and can be bullied in melee. Never forget you can shoot your pistols after advancing and just, well, don't forget the pistols. The problem is cheap infantry with T4 or Invulnerable saves.

If Banshees were 12 ppm and cheap infantry got more expensive they would be okay, like most other medium-elites.

Weidekuh wrote:
Are we now allowed to talk about Banshees being good without getting put down by a theory crafter that has never used them? Is hell freezing over?

Banshees are excellent. Just not in the way many people think they are. Because they are sold as a melee specialist unit. They are not. But they excell at tagging shooty units, disrupting the enemy backfield and assasinating opportune targets. Lightning fast, ignore overwatch and surprisingly resilient in melee (-1tohit). They are very much a tactical finesse unit. I love them.
I found you need 7-10 in a unit to really have enough of them to wrap around enemy units for great effect.

They do however hit like kids swinging a wet noodle at a ravenous tiger.

Yep we are talking about them being good without theory crafting lol. I am speaking from my results from them this weekend. For their cost they did so much beyond just killing stuff. The fact that they charge in, deny overwatch (very huge), and can surgically strike where they need to is so good. Normally i look at units and want a big squad to maximize special effects or strats, but even a small 5 man squad spending 1cp to deep strike then 2 for court of the young king felt like a valid option as they are so small they can easily fit into a tiny hole that an opponent accidentally leaves or just cant cover. And if they die it was 68 pts to force your opponent to turn around and deal with them for a turn, thats worth a lot that can not be math hammered.

I also got my hands on swooping hawks (they seem like a good option for reinforcing a line vs lower toughness units like guard, and cheap enough that can be purchased in an all comers list and not feel like a waste), some warp spiders, some shining spears, some scorpions, and some dark reapers. I really just filled out my aspect side of eldar so now am experimenting with them. Going from 5 banshees to 20 owned has opened my eyes to them. 5 never seemed worth it. 3 squads of 5 and jain zar suddenly thats a strike force that can punish an opponent when they make a mistake.

I love all of our aspects. Like the idea of banshees. I think they can offer some great tactical options. I would like to get some banshees with jain zair. I feel like i would run them out of a serpent near an avatar to crash into an enemy flank. Perhaps not killy but enough to shut down enemy lines and make them deal with it.

The acrobaric rule requires advance so seems better to run them out of a serpent than in web way. A 10 man unit of scorpions dropping in to assist sounds awesome. Suddenly fielding a biel-tan vanguard detatchement of banshees & scrorpions with a psyker who can take spirit stone doesnt sound too bad. I dont feel like the -1 from alitoic would be missed if your units will be gettting stuck in. Avatars fearless bubble and heavy hitting backup can be thrown into the mix also. Spears have been a bit too hiked in price coz of ynnari so makes these more valid.

I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...

You can pick up the less used aspects ten a penny on eBay as they're not meta units. If you don't mind older sculpts and/or stripping, eBay is really cost efficient. You're missing out if you don't consider eBay an option. The secondary market is booming, especially for sealed boxes of current metal sculpts. Very few companies care about the secondary market outside of card games like MtG.

On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.

I quite like running two squads of banshees in falcons with star cannons and CTM.
First turn run the falcons up and shoot something, second turn banshees jump out to do their thing and then the falcons shoot and then change into something to shut them down, knowing the next turn I can fall back and still shoot.
As a combo they do great work at disrupting gunlines. At a smidge over 400 PTS I think they're well worth their points.

I'm not a big fan of the CTM. Sure it gets rid of the -1 to hit but it limits you to shooting only the closest unit if you want to use it. Also putting a heavy weapon on a serpent pretty much limits it to just 16" moves since you can't assault and fire heavy weapons at the same time. If you're going to use serpents as troop delivery systems you'd do better with shuriken cannons, with vectored and star engines. Then you can give your banshees whatever attribute you want and your serpents are still -1 to be hit regardless of the enemy's range.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
You can pick up the less used aspects ten a penny on eBay as they're not meta units. If you don't mind older sculpts and/or stripping, eBay is really cost efficient. You're missing out if you don't consider eBay an option. The secondary market is booming, especially for sealed boxes of current metal sculpts. Very few companies care about the secondary market outside of card games like MtG.

On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.

Older sculpts tend to be cheaper indeed. And for good reason i think, they look very very dated. I wouldint personaly spend money on some old sculpts caked with paint.

The new style metal sculpts tend to sell for more than finecast equivalent. Obviously sometimes you can get a good bargain on a bundle etc. Im not disputting how good ebay can be, it can be pretty damn good. But on the whole metal goes for more than finecast and there is a good reason for that. Can agree or disagree of course. I tend to do a lot of flipping and ebaying so im quite confident in asserting this claim.

Economics aside i really like the idea of running aspects. I think warp spiders are probably the least 'competative'. But im hoping to run some in the future however shadow specters just seem so much better.