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 Tyranid Horde wrote:

On topic, I picked up a 10 man squad of Banshees on the aforementioned site and I'm keen on trying them out. S3 is really off-putting for me though, even with a good delivery system (wave serpent). I'm very tempted to try out a Swordwind army all the same.

They're fantastic disruptor units, especially against gunline armies that cant fall back and continue firing, but their killing power is sorely lacking. They can cover a terrifying amount of ground though, and with precise play can really ruin a turtle's day.

I would love to hear some reviews about warp spiders myself. I have only 5 of them, but there are my 3rd favorite aspect in eldar (Banshees and Dire Avengers being 1 and 2). I dont run forgeworld so shadow specters are a non issue to me. Also they do seem to have a different roll. Shadows are an elite that moves 12" and have a stronger weapon depending on what your using it for (88 pts gets you 3 guys doing like 6 hits at 18" or 10 at 8", they seem like elite hunters to me.

Spiders however move between 11" and 31" so are at least as fast but probably faster, get 5 guys for 86 pts, and 8 hits on average with their guns (assuming exarch with double guns) but ap 0 typically so more of a chaff clearer or target of opportunity type unit.

Yeah on paper shadows look better. But i think a swarm of spiders could have a good use jumping behind enemy lines and grabbing objectives that were assumed to be out of reach.

Again i would love to see some actual game perspective about both.

Unfortunately Spiders suffer from serious JOATMON syndrome. They're undergunned, overcosted, and not particularly resilient.

Want a chaff clearer? Guardian bombs and/or bikes do it better.

Want an objective clearer? Bikes and Spectres do it better.

Want a headhunter? Hemlocks do it faaaaaar better.

There's nothing I can think of that another unit cant do better, and more efficiently.

Spiders are a lot more resilient than say Hawks. The 2+ save in Cover with their inherent -1 to hit is quite good. Where Hawks would die easily I tanked like the rest of the leftover enemy army with Spiders on later turns when playing objectives.

I can only recommend using both and pick what you like. Go with 2x5 Spiders and 5 Hawks for 2k points for example and see how it works.

The guns of Spiders are indeed underwhelming though. I think Damage 2 on rending would be a nice boost, as well as a point drop for them.

I've used a unit of 5 Warp Spiders a few times to fill up an awkward amount of leftover points. They do ok as an objective grabber/screen thanks to having very high mobility and durability for their points. Damage output is fairly low but they can chip in.

I just saw on frontline gaming that one of the top 8 lists for the BAO was a Windrider Host list with a Warlock Skyrunner Conclave! I haven't looked at those guys for a while but I'm tempted to now. They can put out a lot of damage with a full unit having 40 S4 rending shots and 10 2's to wound D3 damage shots from Singing Spears. Follow that up with 20 2's to wound D3 damage pokes in hand to hand. The real selling point for me is the 2CP Windrider Host stratagem that lets them move after attacking in the fight phase- I miss hit and running Ynnari Shining Spears.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
and 10 2's to wound D3 damage shots from Singing Spears.

When the spear is thrown it's at STR 9.

I wanna try my conclave now as well.... hmm..

 Gangrel767 wrote:

When the spear is thrown it's at STR 9.

It still has the "wound on 2" property in its shooting profile.

Yes its weird.

I like the idea. We all like the idea. But you're talking about a 670pt unit here with 20 wounds and T4...

Bikelocks are 3w each, not 2w like spears.

It becomes an insanely difficult to kill unit when buffed with conceal, protect, and fortune. Unlike the 9-man spear blob, it retains its 4++ in close combat which means it's significantly more survivable when staying in melee (and continuing to do damage) on the enemy turn. It pretty much wants to be in melee all the time since there are few CC units that have enough volume of attacks to remove 30 wounds of -1 to hit, T4 3++/5+++. If you've ever had a blob of 20 catalyzed genestealers touch your gunline, you know what I'm talking about. Fall back and charge makes them a much bigger CC threat than usual since they will bad touch whatever they want every turn. With the bikelocks it's even worse because they have a massive fly move, a 3++, and can unload 50 shots at any target in the vicinity before charging in.

On top of being hard to kill, it's also a really powerful self-sufficient psyker. It casts 3/denies 3 meaning it can buff itself, can double the range of a power for 1CP, has a high chance of being within deny range for all 3 denies, and always does D6 mortal wounds when it smites.

When I first saw the BAO list, my initial reaction was "lol looks dumb" but after seeing some of the math I'm convinced it has sufficiently noteworthy characteristics to make it worth looking into.

I don't know if it's stronger than taking 18x spears, but the comparison isn't quite as cut and dry as it might look at first glance. It has a lot of unique advantages over spears and the ability to keep a 3++ in close combat means it plays very differently.

The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears

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The biggest downside is 2 attacks hitting on 3s.

What does everyone think about double SC Vypers? In a squad of 3 thats 18 SC shots on a fast and relatively durable platform, for 180pts. They can also tie up units and fall back with no penalty with fly, they seem like a decent choice for tactical flexibility.

I would weigh the double SC Vypers against double SC Walkers. They each cost 180 points for 3 but after that offer very different advantages. The Vypers have maneuverability but the walkers have staying power. I guess it depends on what role you need filled to choose properly.

Crimson Hunters.

Bright lances vs Starcannons?

2nd Question.
I'm concerned after losing Ynnari that I wont have the punch to take out a knight reliably now.

Whats our best source of taking one out? I've seen people suggest fire prisms but even with 3 firing twice and linked fire Math hammer doesn't have them taking one out

Thoughts?

Doom and charging with spears. Doom helps compensate for wounding on 5s and after you wound, AP4 means the flat 2 damage passes cleanly into the knight.

prisms and hemlocks combined work well in my experience. Even shuriken or shadoweaver fire with doom can strip a few wounds if needed.

 Argive wrote:

I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...

I actually quite like pinning metal models, it's very satisfying.
And I would also rather pay a premium for metal than touch finecast with a ten foot barge pole.

Stripping models can be a pain in the arse though. Some of the models I've had off EBay look like they were painted with Dulux. Two thin coats? Try ten thick coats!

 dan2026 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

I honestly think the only reason we dont see that many aspects is that they are finecast and sold in squads of 5. Nobody wants to deal with many finecast models or stripping/pinning metal ones from ebay. The metal ones are more expensive because people would rather pay premium for old metal models than pay for finecast. Im beyond belief nobody at gw has noticed this...

I actually quite like pinning metal models, it's very satisfying.
And I would also rather pay a premium for metal than touch finecast with a ten foot barge pole.

Stripping models can be a pain in the arse though. Some of the models I've had off EBay look like they were painted with Dulux. Two thin coats? Try ten thick coats!

Yeah agreed, especially when the previous owner has been too liberal with a cheap aerosol paint to prime. Vinyl paint just goes gunky when you try and strip it. Just isn't worth the effort to me anymore, having to go in with a toothpick and pry nasty black gunk out of all the crevasses.

Biostrip 20 was up to the task as usual.
Took two separate dips and a lot of scrubbing though.

Galef wrote:The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears

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My theory crafting is so far leading me to the opposite conclusion. I tend to find that Shining Spears also NEED powers to go off in order to work. Both the Council and Spears will go down fast if they charge into the enemy lines without buffs. Losing 308 points of Spears is a lot better than losing 670pts of council though, of course.

The Council does have 2 big advantages however:

1) Nimble Escape: 2CP to move after attacking in the fight phase. A Completely unbuffed council can shoot, charge, then move back 16 or 22" to avoid being counter charged/rapid fired, and benefit from the Alaitoc trait. The Spears will be left in the line of fire, ripe for a counter charge (they are terrible at receiving a charge) and too close to benefit from Alaitoc.

2) Seer Council: 1CP to +1 to cast on a Farseer and Warlock unit within 6" of each other. This strat is amazing with a full Council, you get +1 to cast on 5 powers, meaning that they are more likely to get their buffs than Spears.


If we assume that both units DO get their buffs, then the Spears have a big weakness that the council does not: Getting charged. Anything with good AP and multi damage wrecks Spears in HtH. In my experience their biggest problem usually comes from a character that hits on 2's with such a Weapon: LFR doesn't make enough difference and they have no invul in HtH. The council has a 3++, and with 3 wounds each, 2 damage and D3 damage weapons are less of a problem (They also have the Nimble Escape strat to prevent them being charged in the first place).

Not having this weakness means that you have the option to just tie up as many shooting units as possible with the council, tank the counter charge, then do the same again the following turn with the Windrider Host WL trait, or Feigned Retreat.


Ultimately I think the Spears are a better unit to include in most lists, as the Council will be too many eggs in one basket, but the Windrider Host specialist detachment makes them a viable choice. Who didn't read that and think "This would be amazing for Shining Spears!"

Also, the eye watering 670pt price tag is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you get 3 psychic powers included. The Spears need to pay extra, although I wouldn't go as far as to say that you can add some Spiritseers to the cost of Spears.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:

Galef wrote:The biggest downside IMO that keeps the Bikelocks less appealing that equal points of Spears is that fact that it NEEDS all of it's powers to go off to really work. Otherwise, it's a more expensive unit that dies faster than Spears

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My theory crafting is so far leading me to the opposite conclusion. I tend to find that Shining Spears also NEED powers to go off in order to work. Both the Council and Spears will go down fast if they charge into the enemy lines without buffs. Losing 308 points of Spears is a lot better than losing 670pts of council though, of course.

The Council does have 2 big advantages however:

1) Nimble Escape: 2CP to move after attacking in the fight phase. A Completely unbuffed council can shoot, charge, then move back 16 or 22" to avoid being counter charged/rapid fired, and benefit from the Alaitoc trait. The Spears will be left in the line of fire, ripe for a counter charge (they are terrible at receiving a charge) and too close to benefit from Alaitoc.

2) Seer Council: 1CP to +1 to cast on a Farseer and Warlock unit within 6" of each other. This strat is amazing with a full Council, you get +1 to cast on 5 powers, meaning that they are more likely to get their buffs than Spears.

The fact that you can get 18 Spears for less than the cost of 10 Warlocks is the point though. Both benefit greatly from powers, yes, but the Spears being SOOOO much cheaper means you don't lose as much when those powers fail. You also get much more attacks in both shooting and melee. And the Laser lance can actually kills stuff with decent armour saves.

And the "advantages" you note, while cool, require CPs, which in my experience are in far too short supply. Seer Council is a given, but Nimble Escape seems too much like a "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" rather than planning out your turn so that you didn't HAVE to use it.

But it probably depends on what else is in your list. I like Spears because I don't have to build the army around them. I'm already taking a Farseer & Warlock (Seer Council) plus an Autarch. All Skyrunners, of course. But I also take Prisms (linked fire) and a unti of 20 Guardians (Webway & Celestial Shield). So for me, I just do not have the CPs available to PROPERLY support a full Warlock unit. And you have to set aside CPs for Command Rerolls to mitigate bad luck in the first 2 turns
However, I could see them working well when the army is build around THEM and minimizes use of other units that need Stratagems (so no Prisms, Webway units, Guardians, etc)

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 Galef wrote:

[1]The fact that you can get 18 Spears for less than the cost of 10 Warlocks is the point though. Both benefit greatly from powers, yes, but the Spears being SOOOO much cheaper means you don't lose as much when those powers fail. You also get much more attacks in both shooting and melee. And the Laser lance can actually kills stuff with decent armour saves.

[2]And the "advantages" you note, while cool, require CPs, which in my experience are in far too short supply. Seer Council is a given, but Nimble Escape seems too much like a "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" rather than planning out your turn so that you didn't HAVE to use it.

[3]But it probably depends on what else is in your list. I like Spears because I don't have to build the army around them. I'm already taking a Farseer & Warlock (Seer Council) plus an Autarch. All Skyrunners, of course. But I also take Prisms (linked fire) and a unti of 20 Guardians (Webway & Celestial Shield). So for me, I just do not have the CPs available to PROPERLY support a full Warlock unit. And you have to set aside CPs for Command Rerolls to mitigate bad luck in the first 2 turns
However, I could see them working well when the army is build around THEM and minimizes use of other units that need Stratagems (so no Prisms, Webway units, Guardians, etc)

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I think I generally agree with you that Spears are better than the council, but I will contest some of your points [numbered for clarity]:

[1] If a Council charges in it will do less damage than 2 units of spears. The Council will then either tank the counter attack, or use Nimble escape, and do the same next turn. The Spears will lose whichever unit didn't get the buffs, and only have one unit next turn (or the non-buffed unit will get shot to pieces, and the buffed unit will get taken out in HtH).

[2] I strongly disagree with you here, Nimble Escape is the main reason I think the Council is even worth considering now. Combined with their ability to tank enemy assault units, it allows the council to attack when it's not safe to do so with Spears. I've found my Spears to be much less effective without the old Ynnari rules letting them run away after killing a unit in assault. Rather than being "I had no choice but to pull a risky maneuver" it's "I can pull of this maneuver without any risk!" it gives you more options when planning your turn. Just throw the council into the jaws of death. If you didn't break all the teeth, or don't think you can tank those that are left, simply leave.

[3]You're absolutely right here, you have to build the list around the Council, and it will eat most of your CP. The list I saw that set me on this dubious line of thinking was 3x Crimson Hunter Exarchs, 6x 5 Rangers, The Council, and 9 Scatterbikes. The Scatterbikes presumably hide or go in the Webway, leaving a bunch of units with -2 to hit and a Council for the opponent to shoot at.

My inferior version of the list, which is limited by my available models:

Foot council in a serpent anyone?

I did watch a battle report at least a year ago where someone ran a full squad of warlocks on bikes and while it seemed good he said the same things at the end. It costs too much and is very easily killed by an alpha strike on them before powers go off or by weapons designed for killing them and not caring about ap.

With so many weapons and powers out there that is normally seen in mass for cheap consiser this.

Bolters wound them on 4's and dont care about 3++. Las guns do it on 5's but are typically getting more shots so its a wash. Scatterlasers and shuriken cannons wound on 3's. Splinter weapons on 4's. Tesla on 4's or 3's depending on the weapon. Mortars on 4's. Devourers on 4's. I could go on but i think i made my point. Any half decent anti infantry guns will give them hell, especially with better bolter rules in effect now. And thats not counting death hex / null zone / smite powers either which you won't be able to deny always.

If your opponent is firing anti tank weapons at them then yes they will be super amazing. And they do seem quite awsome. But 670 pts is soooo much for 1 squad.

If we want to compare them to spears then we should be doing that at equal points. As galef pointed out thats 18 spears for 10 warlocks.

But if someone has the warlocks i would love again to see more first hand knowledge of how they actually perform in todays meta. Like i said about the bat rep i watched, it was an early 8th edition one (i think our codex had just come out) so people were not taking things like knights so it may not hold as much value as it had.

All valid points. Although IF the council has it's buffs up, and can keep it's distance, it can be at -3 to hit, which is essentially bullet proof. Death hex will be very bad if it goes off!

Foot council in a serpent anyone?

Nah. Windrider Host is the only reason I think they might do anything.

Im going to run foot conclave when i get the models painted. Because got lots of warlock models lol. Planning on dropping them in from a serpent along with a big blob of wraiths in the web way. Footlocks are way too overpriced more so than the bikes methinks.

I don't think conclaves are good on foot or bike, personally. Way, way too overpriced for what you get. However... fielding a max unit as CWE and a max unit as Ynarri would make for a pretty entertaining game.

For the record I think 38 wounds of spears edges out 30w of bikelocks, if only because you can do more with 2 units of bikes running around threatening different things, as opposed to a single, ultra fast, ultra durable death star unit.

But the bikelock deathstar is much stronger than it appears and provides unique advantages over 18x spears. If you can manage to tri-point something then bikelocks have the upper hand due to the 3++ in CC.

Both units are of course vulnerable if their spells don't go off, but in my experience that is rarely a problem as you'll always deploy your spears in the corner, as far away from the enemy as possible, and out of LOS anyway. That's what quicken is for. Spears or bikelocks shouldn't really ever be targetable until after they've hit something.

Not a tactics question but a model question- In the codex it states that a spiritseer can only have a pistol and a staff. The model from the wake the dead set has a staff and a sword. WtF? At least we know that GW doesn't believe in WYSIWYG for 40K any more.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Not a tactics question but a model question- In the codex it states that a spiritseer can only have a pistol and a staff. The model from the wake the dead set has a staff and a sword. WtF? At least we know that GW doesn't believe in WYSIWYG for 40K any more.

It represents the plain basic combat weapon that every model is equipped should they lack a weapon.

Either way it was also clearly mentioned in the Wake the Dead warcom article as just representing a ritual knife with almost no effect in game.