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My spidey sense was tingling.

Shadenuat wrote:You don't need 30 Spiders. Around 15 is already ok to do what they do best - playing points, moving fast, finishing enemy units (which also can bring points, provided you know what you need to get points).

Tyranid Horde wrote:What's this about a Warp Spider spam list that I saw Argive on about in another thread here?

I don't have enough of them but I'm interested all the same.

Try something like this,
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755308.page



Ive always found them fun and helpful,, unfortunately, I haven't played any games recently, but looking to get back into it.

Also check out these for alternative Warp Spider models (I hope i'm allowed to link, I'm not associated in anyway)
http://detalik.ru/ghost-miniatures/the-attercops-squad-6-models

Amazing Warp Spiders.




I got a few questions for you regular players.
How necessary do you think Autarchs are at bigger games (around 2k), is it stupid not to run one? I'lll be running a battaltion plus 2 dethments, it takes you from 10 CP to basically 12 CP with a little luck. And whos running 2 Farseers, anyone? Doom is essential, but 4 must have powers aren't really a thing, compared to the price of warlocks and some pretty decent powers. I'm also thinking of running wave serpents with BL, along to with the Autharch (on a bike) 4's to hit, rr 1's isn't the worse. If not for the autharch it'd be 1 farseer and 3 warlocks.

I think autarchs can work well but their aura is quite small so will likely work best with deathbally armies or at least part of one. The nice thing with psykers is that they're more flexible in where they buff.
Two farseers isn't bad but it is pricey. But a buffer with guide and fortune can work well with something like a wraithknight or Scorpion while the other takes doom and executioner for offensive punch.
Going ulthwe to unlock eldrad is probably more efficient than two farseers though.

There are competetive lists with Autarches and without Autarches. All depends on what you need.

For a pure support unit I really enjoy the cheap 77pt autarch with Faolchu's Wing which helps it keep up with grav tanks.

I almost always take a doom/fortune bikeseer and a protect/jinx bikelock warlord with Seer of the Shifting Vector. Usually I can't think of a better relic to take on my third HQ. It always ends up being Faolchu's Wing on either a quicken footlock or foot autarch.

What other relics do you guys like?

I like having a Biketarch. The larger base helps improve his buffing radius a bit. He is handy if you want to buff several squads whilst a Farseer with Guide is better for buffing one heavy firepower unit.

I often give mine a laser lance, Banshee Mask and Shimmerplume Helm. I find it makes him quite durable and can dish out some decent hits in combat or negate overwatch for other charging units. Add in lightning fast reflexes and he can be surprisingly difficult to hit in melee.

Today I ran 3 CHEs with the scorpion again. This time against 3 knights: a castellan, a gallant, and a crusader. They were accompanied by 50-60 guardsmen. I took Eldrad in place of the autarch this time since I thought I'd try for Guide instead of reroll 1s.

It worked out well. Vanguard strike deployment (the diagonal one). I castle everything in the corner as usual to exploit the scorp's 60" range. He gets T1 and fires everything at a CHE, taking it down to 3w. The gallant lumbers forward and can't quite make it into charge range.

I kill the gallant in my shooting phase, kill the castellan the next the turn, then somehow I fail most of my spells and fail to kill the crusader on T3. Crusader charges my bikelock, flubs all his stomps, somehow fails to scratch the warlock. Crusader gets vaporized by the scorpion pulsar T4. GG after that.

I'm pleasantly surprised at how well the scorpion performs. I thought it was a pretty casual "kinda throwing the game" sorta pick, but it's actually wrecking stuff hard. It also seems really hard to damage since it easily outranges all of the scary 48" guns in the enemy force.

Against real horde lists I think my setup will struggle, but if there's an enemy superheavy on the table, the scorpion can easily just carry the list to victory. I still don't think the unit is top tables competitive but it certainly seems like it'd function well in a gatekeeper list. It's certainly not as casual as I thought.

Kdash wrote:The problem I have with Warp Spiders and Scorpions alongside them, is that their “heavy” Aspect armour equates to a T3, 3+ save.

Sure, -2 to hit helps them, when they are more than 12” away, but their weapons are only a 12” range, so, you’re mainly just looking at a -1 to hit.

True but that's only fire returned from one unit. Also the point of them for me is to be an objective holder/board control unit. Their spinners are sadly very meh from an offensive standpoint so I would not expect them to shoot much anyway. And if they do the unit they land within 12" of will be pretty diminished to fire back and everything else will still be -2 base if you take them alitoic. I rate them based on recent use. Other peoples opinions will vary of course.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Bharring wrote:

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Now I came to elder for a tank army (I play tyranids and daemons, so I adore strong psychic powers but I wanted vehicles damn it!) but after reviewing and playing I have to admit my old Monster craze is slowly infecting me in the elder, and Wraithguard/blades and Wraithlords are beyond awesome models, so I have to ask you Dakka,

How would a Footdar list do with Avatar, Wraith constructs and then some faster elements (maybe some fliers or other movement shenanigans we're infamous for)? I'd be interested in trying it sometime!

Wraith constructs in a Footdar list are a bit odd, in that once you've exposed your Footdar, you're getting nothing out of your Wraith Constructs' durability. And the Avatar wants more bodies, not better ones.

If you have Fire Dragons next to Wraithguard, your Wraithguard are no better than Fire Dragons - as their toughness means nothing when they're not getting shot at.

If you have Banshees and Wraithguard, your Banshees will get shot up. And, if they somehow survive to engage, your Wraithguard won't keep up - so they can kill your Banshees in CC then handle your Wraithguard on it's own.

On the other hand, your wraith constructs can be exposed before your footdar engage - forcing your opponent to engage the tougher targets. And a Wraithlord near Platforms/Guardian backfielders/Reapers really changes the opponent's options.

Ah okay,so a lot of anti synergy but also an ability to pose awkward questions for my opponent. I'm going to have a think about it and see if i can come up with a cool list to run as an example!

Also in your opinion, how good are wraithblades? My issue against them is I love Wraithguard with D scythes FAR too much!

I really rate the blades personally, they have been a great workhorse for me in all of my games, rarely leave home without them. They are cheap for what you get and you can fit 6 or (5 with spirit seer + 1 more char) in a serpent which is nice. They will mince most other units in CC but they struggle against invulns and high toughness multi wound targets(str 6) and only -3 but 1 dmg. You do get a lot of attacks on the charge and with something like supreme disdain and enhance they become much better but still find them struggling sometimes. However they are great at chargine the line and are a pain to kill which can buy enough time for the rest of the army to score points and manoeuvre.

I haven't messed around with the axes too much I seem to lean towards the blades due to cost., I think a footslogging axes dropped from a web way and protect can be a vicious road block if you really need to hold the line.

As other have pointed out, the autarch can be used to great effect but you could as well make an army without one. I think he really comes into his own as a support rather than a beat stick. You can do some interesting combos with load outs and traits; Mark of hunter reaper launcher is solid, Falochus wing with fusion cheap mobile support, you can give puritanical leader to make him a mini avatar or natural leader if biel-tan to give free guide to a unit of shooty.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 slave.entity wrote:
For a pure support unit I really enjoy the cheap 77pt autarch with Faolchu's Wing which helps it keep up with grav tanks.

I almost always take a doom/fortune bikeseer and a protect/jinx bikelock warlord with Seer of the Shifting Vector. Usually I can't think of a better relic to take on my third HQ. It always ends up being Faolchu's Wing on either a quicken footlock or foot autarch.

What other relics do you guys like?

I tend to go for falochus wing to make budget bike seer/lock/tarch.

Shiftshroud for a DS spirit seer along some wraithguard is also pretty neat.
Theres quite few decent relic combos. Experimenting with different lists is fun. However Im not sure How I'd feel about spending extra CP to have 2 relics.. Dual battalion gets annoyingly expensive fast :(

My favorite thing about the jetbike psyker over a Faolchu's Wing psyker is that Ride the Wind gives them a flat 6" advance so they have an effective 22" fly move, nearly double the range of wings.

Super useful for positioning them at exactly 18" away or exactly 24" away to doom/jinx a target from out of LOS.

 slave.entity wrote:
My favorite thing about the jetbike psyker over a Faolchu's Wing psyker is that Ride the Wind gives them a flat 6" advance so they have an effective 22" fly move, nearly double the range of wings.

Super useful for positioning them at exactly 18" away or exactly 24" away to doom/jinx a target from out of LOS.

Of course the biker is neat . But I think in order to maximise on all that movement you need some good forward screening that he can trail behind (spears/fliers)

I tend to use Eldrad screened by Guardians over a normal seer and pack a WS with blades and spirit seer. I find I am rarely out of 24" to doom/guide something I need to.
I don't use bikes or fliers so I don't need that much movement because I don't want my psykers to run out in front of a screen so that works for me.

Yeah, the bike psykers definitely require some solid screen and maybe some redundancy on important spells to fully exploit their ability to position aggressively. Love my wave serpents.

It sucks not being able to smite T1 but I've come to accept it as part of my game plan. I tend to castle up t1 for max re-rolls and then switch to aggressive manoeuvring.

I find the Autarch invaluable now in higher points games like 2000 points. You tend to get away with him not being in small point games as two psykers is stronger.

I like to take one as a JetTarch with MotIH and a reaper launcher for some additional character targeting. The weapon range means I can do some backfield support or send him further up with a banshee mask to prevent overwatch on some nasty units.

The CP regain is also a bonus, if he gets back at least one CP that's huge for me when I normally only have 9CP.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
The CP regain is also a bonus, if he gets back at least one CP that's huge for me when I normally only have 9CP.

Agreed. CP regen on a 6 is not massively powerful but it is a handy bonus considering it comes bulit-in while many armies require a WL trait or artifact to get that ability.

I used to take fate reader in ulthwe detachment for extra farm to go with path of command. Don't think I only ever got like 1 CP back so I switched up my lists

CP regen is not something you build around any more, but rather take it if you can get it for free, which is something the Autarch gives.

Another thing to note is to not rely on the Autarch's CP regen. I've had a few situations recently with my Biel-Tan list that getting a big charge off is important with my Banshees to tie up or wrap a shooty unit and I need to save my CP for the court of the young king stratagem. I could spend CP in the shooting phase on something else and risk the regen paying off or I could be slightly less efficient in the shooting phase and guarantee the charge with the bonus of wrapping the unit getting charged. Fun mini-games I guess.

How many people here run a guardian bomb? a biketarch could be handy to get him close to that and act as a second guide. Its what I am thinking.

What do people think of Storm guardians, for a serpent tax they are cheap as chips. I thought they would be decent as a min squad with fusion guns, to pop out of a serpent and kill some MEQs deep strikers. but turns out they suck, can someone check my maths please.



min guardian squad kills 3.9 MEQ and 6.9GEQ. While a Storm guardian squad(and 2 fusion guns) kills only 2.3MEQ and 2.9GEQ. they suck. If someone were to DS, near a few serpents with storm guardians, they might not even lose the squad in return. Normal guardians pose a decent return threat.

I'm sure yous all know this already, I;m just ranting lol. Gone are the glory days of dual flamer plus destructor in a squad, did anyone else used to run that? So many occasions I'd kill 90% of a squad and the lone member would turn around and tear them a new one.

Seems they are barely good enough as a 56pt serpent tax.

Storm Guardians just aren't worth it when compared to the potential of a Guardian bomb.

I like to run my battalions as Biel-Tan so they don't require the Autarch when the guardians bomb in or after the fact, I just need a doom and/or a jinx to go off on the unit I'm targeting to make them extra deadly. Their best tally was wiping a max squad of electro-priests that had deep struck the turn before and coupled with jinx they wiped the 20 man squad with the help of some supporting fire. 320pts got deleted before they really got to do much (they did kill a fire prism the turn they dropped in so they had 3++ saves).

I use Dire Avengers as my Serpent tax and they still put in a satisfactory amount of shots and can actually survive if I drop them off.

I'd say for a fairer comparison you have to do 12 storm guardians with chainswords Vs 10 defenders and give both units a round of shooting and melee to get a more rounded picture of the two units.
I suspect that the defenders will still come out on top of course but storm guardians aren't really a shooting unit.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I use Dire Avengers as my Serpent tax and they still put in a satisfactory amount of shots and can actually survive if I drop them off.

Agreed. MSU Avangers are only 55 points after Chapter Approved 2018. Against most targets, I think they will outperform 8 Storm Guardians and their 4+ save means that even 5 Avengers are not significantly easier to kill than 8 Guardians.

Plus I prefer my ObjSec Troops to be flitting around at 18" range rather than having to get in the enemy's face to cause damage.

I'd never shoot the Fusion Guns at MEQ or GEQ unless I had to though. My meta is not massively competitive, so I can often get shots off at a vehicle.

I run 24 Storm Guardians in a lot of my Alaitoc lists. -1 to hit, 4++, immune to morale (Alaitoc trait) troops that are 6pts each, and can be buffed very well. They'll never output much damage but they are superb ground holders, bubblewrap, and if ignored can be buffed into quite a nasty unit against quite a few common profiles. Highly underrated unit imo, I'm honestly considering converting 24 more as a DS unit once the main squad is depleted.

 grouchoben wrote:
I run 24 Storm Guardians in a lot of my Alaitoc lists. -1 to hit, 4++, immune to morale (Alaitoc trait) troops that are 6pts each, and can be buffed very well. They'll never output much damage but they are superb ground holders, bubblewrap, and if ignored can be buffed into quite a nasty unit against quite a few common profiles. Highly underrated unit imo, I'm honestly considering converting 24 more as a DS unit once the main squad is depleted.

The only thing I can fault them is the fact you can only take 2 fusions. I would like to use them take 3/4 and used like fire dragons but better because you can give them an invuln without having to invest 175 points into asurmen.

I use storm guardians in the only way they should be used in a competitive sense.

8 Man squad with no upgrades 48pts.
They are our cheapest troops option so the cheapest way to pay that troop tax..

in ITC you may use them as engineers but only if there is a magic box with an objective inside.

Trying to use them to kill stuff is reserved for friendly games.

I've killed a DP in one round with a squad of 24, with only an ambush of blades autarch in support, enhance, and supreme disdain.

1 HQ, 1 cast and 1cp. ... No jinx, no doom, just an average of 72 hits. (The average is 6 damage though, in the interest of full disclosure!)

 grouchoben wrote:
I've killed a DP in one round with a squad of 24, with only an ambush of blades autarch in support, enhance, and supreme disdain.

1 HQ, 1 cast and 1cp. ... No jinx, no doom, just an average of 72 hits. (The average is 6 damage though, in the interest of full disclosure!)

What kind of Prince? Tzzentch, Nurgle, or other?

I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?

I'm finishing up my three squads of twelve storm guardians.
They were originally going to be corsairs before they got the final nail in their coffin. They're decidedly un wysywyg, combining mostly guardian and kabalite kits with other bits chucked on too. I run altansar so more piratey guardians seem appropriate to me.
I'm planning on running them in three stock wave serpents with a swooping hawk exarch to basically swamp the enemy screen and shut down as much enemy firepower as I can, especially with the serpents. I'll be using them as alaitoc for the fearless bubble on the autarch.
Not sure how effective this will be but should be fun to try at least.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?

I think the idea is to not even bother trying to offensive with them since they hit like a wet paper towel. You just pay as few points as possible to fill Battalions and spend point on other things.

I've used them as an effective screen before. Deployed them right at my DZ with more important units just behind.
I was able to move them up just far enough so that a 20man Death Company unit would not have been able to move over them, nor move their full 12". This saved a unit of Spears and 2 Prisms from eating it turn 1.
Stormies died, but left the DC in the wind to feel the full furry of my army. So 48pts used wisely won that game for me. Because those DC would have easily eaten half my list

And Alaitoc is the best trait for any unit to live longer against shooting. Makes even Stormies annoying to remove

-

 Galef wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
I fail to see how Alaitoc storm guardians are good when they need to be within 12" of the unit they're attacking anyway so if you don't kill the unit they shoot/charge, they'll gun you down at normal BS. Would it not be prudent to stick them into a craftworld that would give them a real benefit and not just a situational one (fair enough if you're just camping them, then it doesn't matter)?

I think the idea is to not even bother trying to offensive with them since they hit like a wet paper towel. You just pay as few points as possible to fill Battalions and spend point on other things.

I've used them as an effective screen before. Deployed them right at my DZ with more important units just behind.
I was able to move them up just far enough so that a 20man Death Company unit would not have been able to move over them, nor move their full 12". This saved a unit of Spears and 2 Prisms from eating it turn 1.
Stormies died, but left the DC in the wind to feel the full furry of my army. So 48pts used wisely won that game for me. Because those DC would have easily eaten half my list

And Alaitoc is the best trait for any unit to live longer against shooting. Makes even Stormies annoying to remove

-

100% this. Storm Guardians are there for a cheap screen, extra CP and objective sitters alongside Rangers.

They are also decent units to put into Wave Serpents imo. Run the serpent up the table onto an objective, if it dies, you have an obsec unit now on the objective. If it doesn’t die, well, you still likely claim/contest the objective, and the following turn you can disembark.

For 48 points, you’re not really losing a lot by adding them in to do everything but be offensive.

They are good in one thing and one thing only:
Dying.

Plan accordingly.