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According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.

According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.

They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.

We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.

Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.

Stormies are really cool after price adjustments. Too bad they're so hard to collect and paint in big numbers. If there was a box for sale with 24 of them I'd buy it.

NexAddo wrote:

According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.

They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.

We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.

Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.

I did say about putting them in wave serpents, which don't die to gentle winds.
Plus with the storm guardians and serpents combo you can shut down shooting units/disrupt enemy formations.
Guardian bombs are awesome but sometimes you may want to put other stuff in the webway/clouds.
Scat bikes are also great but need alaitoc to avoid dying to stiff breezes which renders them, usually, immobile or hitting on fours.

NexAddo wrote:
According to mathhammer, a squad of 12 storm guardians with chainswords shooting and then charging kill 9.33 guardsmen. Which isn't terrible. Up against cheap screens they should be able to put some work in. Of course they need to get there so they need serpents but in combination they should be decent anti screen/disruption units.


They have to get there. A gentle wind will see them dead.

We have already some really good options for clearing screens. Scat bikes and Guardian bombs.

Those 32pts you've just spend on getting those extra 4 guardians is just a 24pt handicap you've put on yourself.


I did say about putting them in wave serpents, which don't die to gentle winds.
Plus with the storm guardians and serpents combo you can shut down shooting units/disrupt enemy formations.
Guardian bombs are awesome but sometimes you may want to put other stuff in the webway/clouds.
Scat bikes are also great but need alaitoc to avoid dying to stiff breezes which renders them, usually, immobile or hitting on fours.

If you put them in a wave serpent. Then 8 is the same as 12....

Scat BIkes you run as SH. With massive move, good range and fire and fede you should be able to have them never be hit. If you vs someone like GSC, Daemons or Orks and they try Da Jump or DS then forewarn them back to the shadow realm.

Ok so I've got a hemlock and a crimson hunter exarch and want a 3rd flyer to make an airwing, what should I build it as?

I find the hemlock generally performs better, it's just more reliable, and even with a handful of wounds left it's still auto hitting. But I do face a lot of tanks and knights, and the hunter is cheaper of course.

Ok so I've got a hemlock and a crimson hunter exarch and want a 3rd flyer to make an airwing, what should I build it as?

I find the hemlock generally performs better, it's just more reliable, and even with a handful of wounds left it's still auto hitting. But I do face a lot of tanks and knights, and the hunter is cheaper of course.

Hemlocks are just awesome. If you have the points I'd grab a 2nd.
2 Hemlocks gives you a backup Jynx if one goes down which can be solid.

Another CHE with Starcannons are a solid cheaper option.

Hemlocks are only more killy against hard targets (T7/T8+) while unsupported. If you support with doom, starcannon CHE's are killier and SIGNIFICANTLY more durable.

In a competitive setting a single Hemlock is ideal, mainly for its long range jinx. Its damage is really just a bonus. Hemlocks aren't super reliable as damage dealers because getting within 16" makes them extremely vulnerable to flamers or smite or simply volume of fire (which will likely be in range to ignore their Alaitoc bonus).

For dealing sustained heavy damage, multiple Alaitoc starcannon CHE's are better because 36"-48" guns means they rarely need to expose themselves to enemy fire and almost never lose their Alaitoc bonus. Yes, doom is a requirement against T7 or T8+, but when you pull it off, 3 starcannon CHE's will easily 1-turn kill most vehicles from a safe (and practically untouchable) distance of 36" away. While 3 hemlocks can do roughly the same thing without doom, they cost significantly more points (150+?) and there is a decent chance that one will die in the process.

Yeh range is definitely a consideration, lost my hemlock to bolter fire last game, not before it had done some decent damage though!

My CHE currently has lances for anti tank but it is a bit swingy in terms damage with no psychic support. Might have to switch to starcannons then, that seems to be the most popular load out.

On a side note, I used a warp hunter for the first time last game, deployed via cloudstrike to get within 12" for the auto hitting mode, was really surprised with how effective it was.

I did save a reroll in case I rolled badly for the number of shots, but it one-shotted a tank commander and drew a lot of attention off everything else for the rest of the game.

Why did I think bright lance is 48".... Hope I haven't misplayed it lol.

Enjoy CHEs for another 5 months because there is no way that it's surviving a nerf at it's current 161pts. I expect it will increase at a minimum of 20pts.

 bullyboy wrote:
Enjoy CHEs for another 5 months because there is no way that it's surviving a nerf at it's current 161pts. I expect it will increase at a minimum of 20pts.

I do think you are right. I don't think it would be a bad thing if I'm honest. It is undercosted for what it delivers especially as alitoic making it an auto take.

I hope we will see some decent drops across the board though due to Ynarri shenanigans being a thing of the past.
Im mainly hopeful for warlock conclave going back to 30-35 pts and heavy weapons in general going down in price..

Yeah both of those would be nice, a small squad of 4 or so Warlocks could be a nice 'buff caster HQ' alternative to a Farseer if only they didn't cost so damn much.

Im hoping Phoenix lords get the same discount treatment as most other special characters in the game also, so they can pull their weight in a really cut-throat match instead of just being a flavour choice.

Some of the Aspects themselves are in a sorry state also, but I'm not sure any reasonable points cost reduction would save them. Just have to wait for next edition to get my Scorpions out again.

1W T3 infantry models without invuln might as well be cultists/IG

Are you forgetting their saves which make them distinctly not Cultists/IG?

The weakness to Eldar is that they're not durable and the aspect warrior equipment makes up for it.

I would like some points reductions now that Ynnari are all but dead (heh), but I can't see anything drastic because reducing the points along with other factions reductions just makes the game even more unwieldy.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Are you forgetting their saves which make them distinctly not Cultists/IG?

The weakness to Eldar is that they're not durable and the aspect warrior equipment makes up for it.

I would like some points reductions now that Ynnari are all but dead (heh), but I can't see anything drastic because reducing the points along with other factions reductions just makes the game even more unwieldy.

A Guardsman with a 4+ or 3+ save isn't worth triple the cost of the normal Guardsman though.

Even if they were as durable point-for-point as Guardsmen, some of the aspects don't have even nearly the amount of offensive output needed to justify their cost, and nowhere near as much as Guardsmen either for that matter. Striking Scorpions for example (an elite-slot close combat unit) have a grand total of 2 Str4 AP0 attacks each, as well as one mortal wound on a 6, for 13 points. That's pathetic. There's basically no way to justify that for the cost per model, even if you pile buffs onto them.

I agree with what your saying that reducing points drastically across the board is not good for the game and in this case it doesn't fit their fluff as elite warriors (Scorpions would need to be around 8-9 pts each to be decent IMO). But its likely the only option available to balance them from GW's point of view. I don't think they would bother re-writing datasheets for units for balance reasons. Otherwise Striking Scorpions sit on the shelf for a whole edition...

I'd argue that scorpions aren't bad at 11pts, not great either but deep striking onto an objective in cover gives them a 2+ save which is great against small arms fire. Also, whilst not game changing their pistols aren't bad and can do real damage against things like guard/gaunts.

kingheff wrote:
I'd argue that scorpions aren't bad at 11pts, not great either but deep striking onto an objective in cover gives them a 2+ save which is great against small arms fire. Also, whilst not game changing their pistols aren't bad and can do real damage against things like guard/gaunts.

All I am going to say, to avoid a gak storm is that I honestly believe 11 point Scorpion is the fair price. They have good Str 4 attacks, decent pistols and MW generation inbuilt is nice! But certain other models being too cheap makes Scorpions look gak awful in comparison.

So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;

The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...

Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper

 Argive wrote:
So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;

The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...

Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper

I think the 4+ is due to the exposed guy shooting it? Im not sure. I know I prefer the T5 4+ to T3 3+ personally

 Argive wrote:
So here is a weird one that came up in my last game;

The heavy weapons platform is T3 W2 3+.
The Support Weapon is T5 W5 4+...

Why the 4+? It's a substantially heavier chunk of wraithbone than the 2W platform guardians use. and obviously a lot tougher. Seems like a bit of a GW blooper

To keep it relatively squishy. Going from T3 to T5 is a huuuuuuge defensive improvement in and of itself. Giving it a 2+ cover save while also watching small arms fire ping off on anything less than a 5 to wound would be crazy tough.

It makes sense from a game design perspective but I gotta agree with Argive here, fluff-wise it feels weird. Especially when you see the two models side by side. Everything about the support weapon says 'heavily armored'.

Yeah it doesn't really make that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things,it just seems a bit off.

If it was a 3+ I think id field a lot more of them and maybe even drop some D cannons. I still think they are a great unit. 3 vibro cannons can win you the game due to stopping advancing and half-decent fire power.

Yeah I mean visually the support weapon platform is just a scaled up version of the heavy weapons platform. It's got larger and thicker plating in just about every way. Feels weird that armor goes down while every other stat goes up.

They are still solid units though. Shadow weavers and vibrocannons look like fun.

 slave.entity wrote:
Yeah I mean visually the support weapon platform is just a scaled up version of the heavy weapons platform. It's got larger and thicker plating in just about every way. Feels weird that armor goes down while every other stat goes up.

They are still solid units though. Shadow weavers and vibrocannons look like fun.

Durability isnt purely saves though. It's abstracted in mechanical rules through the Wounds, Toughness and Save characteristics. The combination of those makes the SWP substantially more durable than the HWP (while also not making Guardians not crazily resilient at the same time, nor fiddling with mixed unit toughness which is a bitch and a half in 8E).

I get that it looks beefier. It is. And its rules reflect it.

The overall durability being higher mathematically doesn't make it less weird that for some reason this giant turret with thicker, wider plates has weaker armor than its miniature cousin. Ideally fluff-to-game-design abstraction works at different levels, not just in terms of global mathematical averages but also in terms of direct stat-to-stat comparisons.

This is also assuming GW employs people that actually think about the rules like that. Since they just kind of arbitrarily assign points values based on biased observations of playtesting, I highly doubt they even noticed the difference in save. It's probably a goof up - or a holdover from a previous edition where they were both the same but one got changed to make it more appealing to players/buyers

It works, mechanically. You need the Guardian platform to be T3 to avoid needed special rules for mixed T, so it gets 2W and a 3+. The Support platform is bigger, so it gets T5 and 4W, but it's also Eldar, so it gets a 4+, similar to Windriders, War Walkers, etc.

The only unit I can think of with a 3+ save isn't either a Wraith-construct, Aspect warrior or Tank, is a Vyper. And you could explain that away as a speed bonus.

You could also think of it as the "pilot"/crew don't have good armour, so it drops it down to 4+ overall, whereas the Guardian platform is just the platform.
Kind of a reverse of the Marine Landspeeder NOT being Open-topped in prior editions because "the marine armour" of the pilots

-

yeah but is it as tanky as a banshee though ?
(The walker is a baby carrier on stilts so it makes sense )

As I said it doesn't really matter. I still use the platforms.

Speaking of Platforms what is everyone's thoughts on the 3 guns it has available?

I'm VERY tempted to run 3 with web spinners as its 3D6 str 6 shots with good potential rending, comes out fractionally cheaper than the Night Spinner whilst being tougher by virtue of being 3 separate targets. The reduced point of str and D1 instead of D2 is only a good thing in my view as it'll mainly be after the chaff units where D2 was overkill!

D-cannons seem great but accordingly expensive, and Vibro cannons... confuse me. I wish they coud ignore LoS or at least be assault.