Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Argive wrote:
Caveat I have not run fire warriors.

(headdesk)

Flamer is fairly pointless - you're losing an accurate shot from Exarch (who can re-roll 1's to hit and 1's to wound against vehicles and monsters - pointless with Flamer as well); meltabomb is 4", any decent opponent won't allow you to move so close. And don't expect FDs to live more than a single turn. That's why using 5 is a good idea since losing just 120 pts is not as big of a deal and you get 6W for price of 5W.

If you want to utterly minmax, the flamer and extra model are a handicap. If you got some odd 20 points left and nowhere else to put them... i'd still rather get another fusion gun

It was a very close game all the way to turn five with one point in it until turn 6 where bad rolling on my part ended my chances of winning.

The dragons were a total bullet magnet and most of them died when the wave serpent they were riding in exploded on turn 2.

The hawks I think I played poorly but a minimum squad does have good potential to drop by objectives if the opponent doesn't screen properly.

The guardian bomb I ran suffered from morale. 20 Ld 7 guys evaporated in a turn.

I'll post my list at lunch if anyone wants to dissect it!

Yeah, FDs share the bullet magnet role with Shining Spears in the Codex and prize for who dies first. It's preferable to take 1st turn and disembark on 2d turn, as you have good chances to survive one turn of shooting in WS. That's why people prefer Reapers, CH and Prisms really.

The Hawks should be used in small units of 5 and stay away. Usually opponents don't target them right away.

Morale, Alaitoc has all the answers. But buffed and with tanking hits on platform they don't die THAT easily. Sounds like your opponent was just better and did well with target priority.

He definitely a better list for a start, triptides and triple commanders that I couldn't deal with because they're characters. Velocity trackers weren't fun to deal with either.

The Guardians died because he sank most of his army's shooting into them and still didn't get them all. They don't benefit from Alaitoc when they're bombing in to kill a unit with their 12 inch range.

My list:
Biel-Tan Battalion
Farseer w/ guide and doom
Warlock w/ jinx/protect
20 guardians w/ 2x shuriken cannons
2x 5 man avenger squads
3 shuriken war walkers

Alaitoc Spearhead
Jetbike Autarch w/ Mark, Banshee mask, reaper launcher, shimmerplume and power sword
Warlock w/ quicken
5 rangers
5 fire dragons
5 swooping hawks
3x scatter laser, ctm wave serpents (these were a test to see if they performed better than shuriken cannon serpents)
3x fire prisms

Obviously not super competitive without flyers and reapers but it's pretty durable. By the end he had no drones, 1 riptide and 2 commanders with some fireblades and I had 2 fire prisms with a farseer. I failed a lot of psychic tests despite rerolls. I think I played pretty well despite the loss, I maxed out my secondaries bar one point in marked for death.

What do people do with their Guardian bombs? Drop them asap or wait until turn 3 when screening isn't as impactful?

Ah, Tau. Those are fun to play against.

I don't like Guardians that much - they're good in a defensive list, not as much in offensive one (also I hate painting infantry); and if you're using one blob, I'd say add another one then. Two blobs with Jinx etc. is a lot more firepower. Piloting them takes some getting used to.

Also, for an Eldar list, you're lacking in Smites. You only have 1 Farseer and 2 Warlocks, don't have an Executioner. With 2-3 more MW powers you will have more power to mop up difficult units.

Aside from that, fact that you did so well, with Biel-Tan even, means there's nothing terribly wrong with your list.

Drop them asap or wait until turn 3

Depends on the matchup and what is your opponent doing. Getting all the infantry out right away can mean you won't even have any leftovers later to put on objectives.

I find Guardian bombs and their effectiveness to be pretty dependent on match-ups (like anything else) and I found it difficult to get good targets against his list. It can feel a bit pointless going for riptides when he can pass off wounds and when targeting the drones, their 5+ FNP among other buffs hurts a lot.

I chose Biel-Tan as a cheap CP battery and I can deepstrike units places where I might not be in range to buff them so hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s is something I like on walkers and guardians.

I see what you mean by the lack of smites. Usually I run a farseer and a spiritseer but I think the dragons and hawks could go in place of more psychic support and offense.

It's not the worst trade when you think about it - for every wound transfered they lose a drone on a 5+, which is a 10 ppm model. If you try to kill them with say, scatbikes they roll 4+ and 5+++. And then they lose a bit of wounds through the game on the reactors.

Considered moving the guardians down to alitoic and the rangers up to bieltan?

The idea is you would drop them within 6" of the Autarch.
With thepuritanical leader trait that would make them fearless -1 to hit, reroll 1s anyway and you can always drop celestial shield to really make the opponent sink shots into them.

Guardians can be flimsy but as ever the Elf book of dern derty derp helps, throwing Protect on them gives the Platforms a 2+ that'll soak a lot of small arms, plus the 4++ strat means they'll either get left alone or become massive bullet magnets for a turn, either way is a win as it means your other glitter and tissue paper elfs aren't being shot at. or you've got a lot of shurikens to offload next turn

Guardian bomb is a staple in my lists. I rarely hold them off past turn2, most of the time i want some thing dead and that large footprint to keep my opponent honest. If it wasn't a chore to paint i'd think of another 20.
If there's no chaff to clean i drop them on a doom/jinx target. They finished t8/3+ units more than once.
You can also get pretty creative in spreading them out for different targets, with pmatforms and the guardians firing them gibing leeway with the 12" range. (For example to get at two spread out drone squads)

Crimson Hunters gonna be 250pts in CA2019?

I have not been able to game much this year, but will get the opportunity to play in a local tourney today using ITC. I don't think the list is overly competitive, but I enjoy the aesthetics of Craftworld vehicles. Realistically, I expect a 1-2, but I'm learning Craftworlds armies are very rare these days in my local area.

Alaitoc Craftworld
CP: 9
Warlord: Farseer
Points Value: 1992

1 × Battalion (Alaitoc)
2 x 1 Autarch Skyrunner, Twin Catapult, Power Sword (101 each, 202)
1 x 1 Farseer, Singing Spear, Executioner WC7, Doom WC7 (115)
2 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult (58 each, 116)
2 x 5 Rangers (60 each, 120)
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks, 5 Lasblasters, 1 Power Sword (69)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (169 each, 338)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (157 each, 314)
1 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Brightlances, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (185)
1 x Airwing (Alaitoc)
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Hvy D-scythe, SS, Jinx WC7 (210)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcanons, Pulse Laser (161)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcannons, Pulse Laser (161)

karandrasss wrote:
Crimson Hunters gonna be 250pts in CA2019?

I suspect there will be a points bump but will Hemlocks remain the same ? depends on how GW feels about chancing it on the sales of Nightwings (not quite as good as CHE but cheaper in points but twice the munnys !)

 Sarigar wrote:
I have not been able to game much this year, but will get the opportunity to play in a local tourney today using ITC. I don't think the list is overly competitive, but I enjoy the aesthetics of Craftworld vehicles. Realistically, I expect a 1-2, but I'm learning Craftworlds armies are very rare these days in my local area.

Alaitoc Craftworld
CP: 9
Warlord: Farseer
Points Value: 1992

1 × Battalion (Alaitoc)
2 x 1 Autarch Skyrunner, Twin Catapult, Power Sword (101 each, 202)
1 x 1 Farseer, Singing Spear, Executioner WC7, Doom WC7 (115)
2 x 5 Dire Avengers, 6 Avenger Catapult (58 each, 116)
2 x 5 Rangers (60 each, 120)
1 x 5 Swooping Hawks, 5 Lasblasters, 1 Power Sword (69)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Star Cannon, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (169 each, 338)
2 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Scatter Lasers, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (157 each, 314)
1 x 1 Wave Serpents, Twin Brightlances, Shuriken Cannon, CTM, SS (185)
1 x Airwing (Alaitoc)
1 x 1 Hemlock Wraithfighter, 2 Hvy D-scythe, SS, Jinx WC7 (210)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcanons, Pulse Laser (161)
1 x 1 Crimson Hunter Exarch, 2 x Starcannons, Pulse Laser (161)

I would suggest swapping the power swords on the autarchs for lances, Drop the BL & CTM for just shuri cannons or scat lazors on the serpents. and take 3 squads of rangers dropping the DA

With the points saved I think you might be able able to take a unit of reapers with tempest launcher.

Fusion guns/fusion pistols on biketarchs have been cheap, popular, and effective lately. Also don't forget to take banshee masks on your autarchs. They are stupid good, and free.

Since we're on the subject of DS bombs, I have a math question.

10 Wraithblades dropping from deepstrike in a wraithhost detachment are pretty scary, putting out 50 attacks (increasing to an average of 66 with the enhance/disdain combo) and can combo to get a very nice charge going, like so:

Spiritseer with specialist trait allows reroll all.
Wraithseer in the same detachment casts enliven on a WC of 6.

The bomb is now rolling three dice, and can reroll all or one of them for a cp. What's the actual percentage chance of getting that charge off on a 9"? I'm guessing it's something like 75%, as it's been very effective for me, but I'd love someone to be able to confirm/disconfirm it for me.

(Wraithseers are pretty great in a wraithhost too, as they can sub out one of their underwhelming powers for twilight gloom, giving that big blob, or themselves, a 2+ base save. I like to run two.)

I appreciate the input. Ended up 1--1-1. I have played a total of 8 games this year, so a it was knocking off a lot of to rust. If I played a bit quicker in my first game, it would have been a win instead of a 21-20 loss. But, happy to be rolling dice afain.

A couple points: Army is WYSIWYG and painted, so no real ability to hot swap chunks of the armament. I wanted to run a mechanized army, and this fit. I will concur that Scatter Lasers were not very good, but not really able to rip apart the turret to swap.

FAQ is out, but no major changes.

Guessing banshees (maybe all aspects) might get a points drop in CA19. And most likely the flyer nerf.
It'd be nice if they really mixed things up a bits but guess we'll wait and see.
I'm also hoping scorpions came out in plastic, those models are amazing and remind me of predators (just don't mention the 2018 movie please)
Link.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

 Sarigar wrote:
I appreciate the input. Ended up 1--1-1. I have played a total of 8 games this year, so a it was knocking off a lot of to rust. If I played a bit quicker in my first game, it would have been a win instead of a 21-20 loss. But, happy to be rolling dice afain.

A couple points: Army is WYSIWYG and painted, so no real ability to hot swap chunks of the armament. I wanted to run a mechanized army, and this fit. I will concur that Scatter Lasers were not very good, but not really able to rip apart the turret to swap.

I undetstand. I tend to magnetize everything I posdibly can. Serpent turrets are dead easy to do in case you are building more

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:
Since we're on the subject of DS bombs, I have a math question.

10 Wraithblades dropping from deepstrike in a wraithhost detachment are pretty scary, putting out 50 attacks (increasing to an average of 66 with the enhance/disdain combo) and can combo to get a very nice charge going, like so:

Spiritseer with specialist trait allows reroll all.
Wraithseer in the same detachment casts enliven on a WC of 6.

The bomb is now rolling three dice, and can reroll all or one of them for a cp. What's the actual percentage chance of getting that charge off on a 9"? I'm guessing it's something like 75%, as it's been very effective for me, but I'd love someone to be able to confirm/disconfirm it for me.

(Wraithseers are pretty great in a wraithhost too, as they can sub out one of their underwhelming powers for twilight gloom, giving that big blob, or themselves, a 2+ base save. I like to run two.)

Big fan of wraiths. But think the spirit host detatchement is a bit of a red herring as the invuln transfer has to be done at the start of the tilurn/move phase so if you ds wraiths in they have to take a round of shooting to the face before you get a chance for invulns. With the 9" charge its not reliable enough to ds blades..I prefer smaller squads in wave serpents. Or a big blob of guard with cannons so at least you get s round of shooting and can alpha a big target.

There are lots of cool ways wraiths can be used so if it works in your list it works for you and thats all that matters. Sadly 1dmg on the blades and low strenght means they are good anti elite infantry but found they really strugle vs invuln chars.. axes seem like the better choice but get pricy. I love the wraiths as there isint just one most efficent set up and they are a very versetile kit and unit.

Thanks Argive, I've been playing that wrong. Lucky I'm still at baby steps with my Eldar army! I still like the 3d6, pick the highest on their charge but I think you might be right about delivery. Will try using axes for a change, I have them all magnetised after all...

You know what I recently watched a bat rep which covered end of turn activations and I think I might have made a mistake there and you are right...

2CP: Spirit Shield. Use this stratagem at the end of your movement phase. Pick a Wraith Host Wraith Construct unit from your army within 6" of a Wraith Host Spiritseer. Until the start of your next turn, the Wraith Construct unit gains a 4+ invulnerable save but the Spiritseer loses the 4+ invulnerable save usually granted by its Rune Armor.

Webway strike DS is also activated at the end of your movement phase.
I believe the activation sequence allows you to apply multiple effects at the end of the turn if multiple things are happening as the controlling player you choose which happens in what order according to a recent bat rep I watched. Im going to post up in you make da call and get a clarification. I think there might have been an FAQ regarding this.

That's right actually, as active player you decide the order, so my bladebomb is back on the menu! Stack them on a doomed target and that target is dead, knight to not.

Again, if anyone's savvy with math hammer, I'd really appreciate the odds on 3d6 picking the highest with reroll 1 or all dice.

 grouchoben wrote:

Again, if anyone's savvy with math hammer, I'd really appreciate the odds on 3d6 picking the highest with reroll 1 or all dice.

I don't have the math skills for this one (nor the patience to relearn them), so I ran a simulation.

3d6 pick highest no rerolls:
52.3% pass
47.7% fail

3d6 pick highest rerolling ones:
64.2% pass
35.8% fail

3d6 pick highest rerolling *all* dice (pick up and reroll *all three dice each time*, let me know if I misinterpreted this):
77.3% pass
22.7% fail

Each outcome is based on 1 million trial runs, so they should be very close to the exact values. I reran each variant a few times, the results are consistent.

Wow that's amazing Shorty, youre an absolute legend, thanks! As i suspected the full buffs give you a very decent chance of making that all-important charge out of DS. Had my blade bomb overkill a knight by about 8 damage in one round in my last game. I think the build has real legs...

 grouchoben wrote:
That's right actually, as active player you decide the order, so my bladebomb is back on the menu! Stack them on a doomed target and that target is dead, knight to not.

Again, if anyone's savvy with math hammer, I'd really appreciate the odds on 3d6 picking the highest with reroll 1 or all dice.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/780846.page
Heres the thread discussing end of movement phase startegem activation. Take from that what you will but I think this should be allowed.

I havent considered running the spirit host because I couldn't find use for spirit link but this changes things so Might revisit these lists.

What are the thoughts on fire dragons now that SM seem to be taking over the meta. If Iron Hands really take hold will it be worthwhile to run a full squad and put them in the webway or in a wave serpent to deal with all those tough vehicles? Or are they still too expensive for what they do?

cag6464 wrote:
What are the thoughts on fire dragons now that SM seem to be taking over the meta. If Iron Hands really take hold will it be worthwhile to run a full squad and put them in the webway or in a wave serpent to deal with all those tough vehicles? Or are they still too expensive for what they do?

I generally prefer Wraithguard to Fire Dragons. The Damage output is slightly better against T8 targets (although Dragons still get an edge at <6". Wraithguard cost more but are far more durable with 3 T6 wounds each. This means that they stand a decent chance of surviving long enough to shoot a second time (or at the very least force your opponent to dedicate serious firepower to deleting them). Also, if they get assaulted, they can withdraw and still shoot (unlike Dragons). Wraithguard do everything Dragons do but are likely to live long enough to do it again.

To be honest with all the multidamage and new 3 damage thunder hammers Wraithguard fall far easier than you might expect.

That's why DS is essential on them imo. You want to be stacking all the buffs you can on them to make them a real force, which lends credence to 10-wraith squads. It's quite possible to buff them to the point where they're 2+/3++/5+++ (two casts and one strat: Fortune, Protect & Spirit Shield).