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I agree the rules for IH are a little silly right now. Will be interesting to watch how the meta shifts.

One possible effect is Ironstones being everywhere will greatly reduce the value of flat 2 and D3 damage guns, which have been the most popular high damage weapons in most factions since 8th began basically. Butcher cannons, storm cannons, starcannons, avenger gatling cannons, disintegrators, heavy burst cannons, and impaler cannons are all pretty garbo against Ironstone-buffed vehicles, so if enough IH players make it to top tables people may start looking into higher damage weapons. Maybe even stuff like melta or fire dragons?

As far as my own games go, the guys at my store are all self-aware enough to let you know in advance if they're bringing the latest meta cheese to a pick-up game. Though TBH I don't think my usual semi-comp scorpion list will have to change much to put up a good fight against that list.

The answer to ironstone is doom and all the shuriken weapons. You should have some on your Serpents and maybe the occasional guardian squad (did i mention i love the 20 man Guardian bomb? ^^). Maybe even D-Scythes, if the stone gets prevalent enough in the meta. Imagine someone proposing D-Scythe Wraithguard in a competitive list in 2019

Mortal wounds also dont care one whit about the Ironstone.

Incomparable hunter wraithseers with d-cannon is always fun against nasty hq's.

So I was looking at taking eldar to a tournament next weekend, it's a no hold bar take whatever you want tournament (rare for my lgs to run) where forgeworld will be allowed. I am expecting iron hand leviathan double gatling dreads to be there as well as knight lists.

Looking at eldar I think vs the iron hand menace we really need to run a detachment of black hand in with whatever else we are running. Vect is simply the simplest answer to the half dmg strat. Everything else becomes easy once that's taken out of the equation, even 1d less on a leviathan doesn't matter as much with doom/jinx/d-cannons flying at one.

Besides that though I am torn. I could take a large battalion or a small brigade and a flight wing of 2 hemlocks and a crimson hunter.

Finally while banshees won't kill one a squad of them charging in can tie some big stuff up for a turn.

Take ton of fast MSU scoring units, lots of strong ground like Serpents who laugh at damage 2, and not a single flyer to demoralize the enemy.

I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on a squad of three hornets because they're awesome.
On a practical level, I'm thinking about a squad of three with star cannons and CTM to put in cloudstrike to root out backfield campers. At 273 pts for 24 wounds they don't seem super expensive, plus I'm thinking they should be a nice target for lfr and fortune to buff their survivability.
Any thoughts on how effective they could be in a role like this?

kingheff wrote:
I'm getting very close to pulling the trigger on a squad of three hornets because they're awesome.
On a practical level, I'm thinking about a squad of three with star cannons and CTM to put in cloudstrike to root out backfield campers. At 273 pts for 24 wounds they don't seem super expensive, plus I'm thinking they should be a nice target for lfr and fortune to buff their survivability.
Any thoughts on how effective they could be in a role like this?

They are sweet models dude. Shouldint need any other reason to field them!

The rules are solid curently. But rules change so get them if you have the inclination my man. I'm eyeing some up myself but have way too much of a backlog currently

I'm waiting for my partner to go home for Christmas so I can get them delivered without disapproving looks!
They will nicely bolster my existing triple prisms, triple serpent, double falcon and Scorpion tank forces.

I never looked that carefully at Cloudstrike and its interaction with a unit of Hornets. I also assumed to utilize Hornet Pulse Lasers, but I can see the utility in Starcannons with the points reduction.

I have begun using more Starcannons in my lists as they seem to be in a good spot for all around utility in an all comer list. As with anything, Cloudstrike would be situational, but I would think there is potential. With so many shots from this unit, I would recommend planning to implement Guide or an Autarch to maximum impact as well as Jinx/Doom.

Another thought would be to utilize 3 War Walkers with Star Cannons. They could fulfil a similar role and with a 5++ save already, they have the potential for better durability than the Hornets. Additionally, no use of CP to perform the role and are less points.


Then again, utilizing both units could provide a very strong counter shooting element .

The hornet is an interessting vehicle.
I like the Pulsar because of range and RoF.

But this isn't in line with the Lightning Assault?
Better take the Shuriken Cannon and advance all the time?

How many is a good amount? 3 or 6?

Is advancing with the Hornet worth the -1 To Hit when you shoot with them?

With Alaitoc and Engines you will get a -3'to hit.
I think this is a good trade off.

The choice of armament for Hornets unsurprisingly depends on their intended role. I think they are best used as backline fire support, focussing fire on the enemy's medium units. With a Pulsar or Starcannon they're very similar to quad-autocannon Space Marine Dreadnoughts, both in statline and in role, so they should be used the same way.

The other use would be to zip forward, harass the enemy, and threaten lightly-defended objective. I'm not sure this is the best role for them as they're somewhat expensive to throw into harm's way, but they're better at it than any other Eldar unit if cost is no object. Hornets are tougher and have more defensive tricks than Vipers and Jet Bikes; are much faster than War Walkers; and are able to engage a wider-range of targets than most of the Eldar infantry with native deep strike. Warp Spiders are probably their only competition for best in this role.

If you're zipping around with your Hornets then Shuriken Cannon are by far the best option, as they allow the Hornets to advance and shoot. Otherwise, any of the long-range options suit the fire support role. I prefer Pulsars (that's how my Hornets are armed) as Damage 2 is fantastic for mowing down Primaris and other heavy infantry.

However, it must be kept in mind that Hornets do not perform an essential role. Anything they do can be done by Codex units, so the "best" way to use them is to plug gaps in your collection. Do you have Dark Reapers? Then you probably don't need Pulsars. Lots of Swooping Hawks? Then the Shuriken-cannon armed objective-grabbers are redundant. Etc.

The cloudstrike tactic would obviously depend on my opponent but I think it's a nice option to have.
I'm not sure if the lasers are worth the extra points, they're very good but a saving of 72 points on a squad of three isn't insignificant. That's almost enough for a foot autarch.
Starcannons are great choices for vehicles generally, especially with the new marine codexes probably bringing more marines to the table.

Maxamato wrote:
With Alaitoc and Engines you will get a -3'to hit.
I think this is a good trade off.

What purpose does it serve? Contesting objectives, line breaker? With a -3 to hit, I think folks would ignore it as it would average 3 hits with its Shuriken Cannons. I ask as I have 1 painted and 5 more not yet assembled. A squadron of 3 with Starcannons piqued my interest as I really only considered arming them with Hornet Pulse Lasers.

The fact that they are a squadron is something to bear in mind. Star canons with guide and doom aint no joke. Taking them bare bones with shuri canons objective hoppin could also work.

I think personaly id run them as alitoic with shuri canons and spirit stones. They ptetty much will always be minus 2 base and will force your opponent to divert significant fire power to be removed. I cant remember if they degrade or not. Its been a while since i looked up their data sheet.

They have 8 wounds so no degradation which is very nice.
Alaitoc plus lfr gives them -2 to be hit which should be worth the 2cp.
Personally I think it would be worth having two farseers, one with doom and executioner and one with guide and fortune just to buff the hornets. With -2 to hit and a 5+ fnp they're not really efficient to shoot at.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In the scenario I've put together above I might be tempted to go with the honet lasers and no CTM since they can just camp all game but I still think I prefer the more manoeuvrable star cannon and CTM load out.

Customizeable Craftworld traits are coming with the Phoenix Rising book, so id expect to see the Alaitoc -1 to get the Raven Guard -1 treatment.

Exarch powers for every Aspect though, plus a new Psyker discipline. Should be tasty.

What way has the Raven Guard trait gone? Not up to date as I'd like to be!

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What way has the Raven Guard trait gone? Not up to date as I'd like to be!

All units considered in cover if attacked from beyond 12", Infantry wholly within terrain get -1 to be hit outside 12".

Yeah alaitoc will likely go the way of the dodo for competitive unless the new aspect powers make footdar super good. Have to wait and see.

New psyker discipline - Runes of Fortune - sounds juicy. Can't wait for some previews of that, bring back Eldritch Storm! I'm hoping the ulthwe trait will get some sort of psyker boon as it should have had from the start, and running 5+ psykers like an old fashioned Seer Council will be a viable way to play again.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
What way has the Raven Guard trait gone? Not up to date as I'd like to be!

All units considered in cover if attacked from beyond 12", Infantry wholly within terrain get -1 to be hit outside 12".

Right, so Rangers would still get the bonus, but Flyers, vehicles and WKs can never get the -1 from being Alaitoc. I'll be glad for it too as it leaves the Hemlocks/Crimson Hunters is a good spot still without needing to over nerf them into oblivion.

-

It leaves flyers in an ok spot, but destroys some (most) of the other vehicles completely. We lack the thoughness or base save to survive the amount of shooting 8th edition has added.

It will ease the decision to try some other craftworlds, but defensively it will hurt a lot and most of our tools didn't receive the same output increase to compete.

Will it still be possible to build a competitive army? Probably yes, but I think it will further reduce the number of choices in our book.

Regarding Hormets: the Vectored Engines, always advancing Alaitoc -3 to hit variant is very effective in ITC. I have had good luck with it, because turns 1 and 2 it makes for easy secondary scoring and objective capping, and when the chaff is dead by turn 3 it swoops in and ties up heavy units that cant fall back and shoot. All for 90 points.

Spartacus wrote:
I'm hoping the ulthwe trait will get some sort of psyker boon as it should have had from the start, and running 5+ psykers like an old fashioned Seer Council will be a viable way to play again.

This. I could use some incentive to finish painting all my footseers and footlocks.

With CA coming out in the relatively near future, is it worth investing in two more Crimson Hunters or should I hold off until CA drops? I have one modeled as an Exarch currently.

With the potential change to Alaitoc, will there be a chance Crimson Hunters won't change much at all?

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
With CA coming out in the relatively near future, is it worth investing in two more Crimson Hunters or should I hold off until CA drops? I have one modeled as an Exarch currently.

With the potential change to Alaitoc, will there be a chance Crimson Hunters won't change much at all?

Too hard to say for sure, but FWIW I wouldn't base my collection on how the rules are going to change in the next 2 months, best not to base what you buy on the rules at all. Everything gets a turn at being good at some stage.

I'm not going for collecting, I'm wanting to gear up to win games at tournaments.

I already have enough sub-par units in my collection without adding more

Personally I have a bad feeling about the next round of rebalancing in Phoenix. It looks to me like we'll be keeping our codex (unlike SMs) and will be getting a single new discipline (unlike SMs), and receiving this supplement to be shared across Ynnari, DE and CW (unlike SMs, where each *chapter* gets its own, let alone faction). There are multiple points of divergence there. Lastly, if they nerf Alaitoc it will severely hamper CW competitiveness, when it's already dropped in the face of the new Chapter Master reroll system, where everyone is the same as Cawl now. A Lev shooting at -2 still hits 15 out of 20 with its SCA, because it gets to reroll 2s and 3s now. That's a huge change.

As it stands CW are behind the new curve by quite a bit. If Alaitoc is nerfed that gap will widen significantly. Therefore Phoneix would have to represent a pretty big buff for us to stay competitive. We'll see I suppose, but the runes don't look good to me.