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Is a battalion still necessary? What do you use CP on?

I'd imagine strats mostly, Lightning Fast, Fire / Fade and Linked Fire at a guess will nom nom CP like something that eats lots of something

karandrasss wrote:
Is a battalion still necessary? What do you use CP on?

A battalion is 100% necessary. Craftworlds are extremely CP hungry and if you have some CH Exarchs you're even hungrier for CP. Lightning fast reactions, webway strike, forewarned and many other stratagems are very much needed to make the army tick.

I'd go as far to say that an Autarch is necessary too in order to have some chance of pulling back more CP in a game.

With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?

If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSU BLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.

cmspano wrote:
If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSU BLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.

I feel like there are good chances that Eldars receive many points change in the upcoming Chapter Approved. Until then i wouldnt try and reinvent the wheel.

That said, as it stands right now, i think that Master Artisans + Concealment spamming AML's is a good way to go for our ground forces. Still paired with flyers because theyre still great, even if marines can more easily deal with them.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

cmspano wrote:
If the meta shifts more toward master artisans with MSU BLs do you think War Walkers might see some use? They're more fragile than a serpent by a good bit but they're the cheapest way to bring lances.

I feel like there are good chances that Eldars receive many points change in the upcoming Chapter Approved. Until then i wouldnt try and reinvent the wheel.

That said, as it stands right now, i think that Master Artisans + Concealment spamming AML's is a good way to go for our ground forces. Still paired with flyers because theyre still great, even if marines can more easily deal with them.

I would 100% Run Walkers with scat lazor and BL/EML a piece if I had the models. I would maybe even in teams of two. I think 3 man squadrons would be vunerable to being focused fired. Having single targets and lots of saturation means your enemy has to make difficult choice each time it fires and either overkill or underkill.

Trouble with building for all these MSU types is you end up running into structure problems... 3 walkers in a single squadon costs the same points as 3 walkers taken in MSU but take up 3 heavy slots..
I really like this new change, its very subtle but it makes for interesting choices. I wouldn't say its "hardcore top table competitive" whatever that means, but I think it gives a lot of lists run for its money without relying on CHE spam. I think brigade is going to be interesting. Not sure how much MSU spears benefit from those traits as opposed to alitoic.
I would like to run an alitoic outrider of spears, warp spiders and spectres to be extra ennoying!

Hope the vyper gets a slight point decrease to solve my problem

There are simply better anti-tank options for Eldar so War Walkers with bright lances will never see competitive play and won't see play when competing against their star or shuriken cannon counterparts.

Mounting heavy weapons on units like Walkers just means your opponent can eliminate anti-tank pretty easily.

@argive you bring up an interesting point, MSU suffers from the rule of 3 and taking up slots in detachments but does allow for getting the most CP out of your lists.

War Walkers with Scatter Lasers are cheap utility units that can screen, grab objectives, tie up units in CC, or outflank for line breaker. In a mech list they either get ignored or soak up anti tank fire that would be better used against other vehicles. If you put BLs or AMLs on them I think they become fragile anti-tank platforms that you want to keep still to get the most out of them.

karandrasss wrote:
With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?

In a game vs Orks I used Forewarned on a Wave Serpent against 30 Da Jumping Boyz. It was only 11 S6 shots so was potentially a waste, but the Serpent survived the Boys charge with 2 wounds left so I was happy. (does Forewarned actually work against redeploying units or did I cheat??). I'd definitely use it on a CHE if the deep striking unit was heavy infantry/monster/vehicle.

CPs are always handy for LFR, Linked Fire, and Seer council strats. I would probably still use Fire and Fade on 3 Dark Reapers in some circumstances, and Matchless Agility is occasionally necessary for grabbing objectives.

I quite like vypers now, with AML and shuricannons for 70pts, using EC/MoC traits. Bit of duality, not too expensive, can put out some nice shots, can move quick to cap objectives if needed, can't be tied up in cc like walkers, and have a great 2+ save.

I'm not sure what could efficiently tie up a 54pt War Walker! But yeah Vypers look nice for performing a similar role, I'd probably go cheap with a Scatter Laser at 49pts.

I personally prefer the survivability of War Walkers. For what is the same price point you get a 5++, two heavy weapons and the option to outflank for a trade off of 4" of movement.

And <fly>, and a drop from 3+(2+ at range) to 4+(3+ at range), and fills fast attack not the over-competitive heavy slot. They're niche, and walkers are better overall, but if we're talking MSU lists, especially brigades, they deserve consideration.

I would much rather a T6 body over a T5 body with the prevalence of Str 6 weapons but you have fair points, especially if you can fit a Brigade into an Eldar list.

I think both options would perform well in the same role.

War Walker wins out slightly in durability due to +1 Toughness and 5++ being a little better than +1 Sv.

War Walkers also have a little more firepower.

Vypers are faster, and more maneuverable thanks to having Fly. The War Walkers outflank option is a nice addition though.

Vypers Biker and Fly keywords also allow it to receive more buffs, although that's probably not relevant for such an expendable unit.


So War Walkers are going to be better at camping objectives/being a screen whilst laying out fire. Vypers will be better at jumping out for distant objectives, and tying up units in assault. I favor the walkers, but if I needed an extra 5pts I wouldn't hesitate to drop a twin Scatter Walker for a single Scatter Vyper.

There's always Wasps.

Sterling191 wrote:
There's always Wasps.

Shhh, no one acknowledges Forgeworld

You'll take the resin equivalent of "Why not both?" and you'll like it!

I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.

Hey all,

I wanted to join the discussion on here, as the recent PA changes have been jolly interesting. Like many, I saw the new Exarch powers as something tending towards MSU, especially as it would give lots of fun rules to play with. (The Goonhammer article especially noted this.) I played a friendly game on the weekend, where I used Janice the Wraithknight along with some MSU Aspect Warriors to test this theory out.

My list, roughly, was: Farseer (Guide, Fortune), Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Executioner), Warlock Skyrunner (Ghostwalk, Protect/Jinx), Wave Serpent, 2x six Swooping Hawks, 2x three Dark Reapers, nine Dire Avengers, Guardian Blob, Rangers, six Windriders with Scatter Lasers, Janice the Wraithknight with her amazing Suncannon and Shield.

I was curious to test out the MSU exarch powers, and also wanted to try the Windrunners with Scatters. The Wraithknight is a fun model, so I usually leap on it in friendly games, but it’s not really relevant to this discussion.

My opponent’s list was a Black Legion friendly special. 3 Oblits, a Vindicator, 5 Havocs with autocannons, two sorcerers with various things, 6 terminators with combi plasma and melta, a Decimator, a chainlord, 2x CSM squad and a 20 man Cultist squad. I won fairly handily, ramming the Wraithknight forward and soaking all his firepower with it (Protect and Fortune, hooray), while my opponent was quite unlucky and failed to eliminate either the two Reaper squads despite allocating both the Oblits and the Chainlord to them or the Wraithknight with the termie deep strike.

The exarch powers I tested were:
- Dire Avengers – Bladestorm – worked fine. Added two hits when the unit shot, which isn’t anything to sniff at, and makes a unit that is already not bad at Overwatch actually quite decent at it. I didn’t get a chance to test them with Guide or any re-rolls. Have no qualms, would use again when the Boys in Blue hit the table.

- Dark Reapers – tempest launcher with rain of death. Worked fine. I only needed to reroll the dice once, and kinda wished that I had the reroll ones instead the rest of the time. However the reliability is hard to ignore. I’d definitely consider the 1CP for both powers on this guy.

- Dark Reapers – reaper launcher with quick shot. Getting four missiles from a three man unit was obviously great, and I had no issues with them. I toyed with the AML, but didn’t quite jump that way this time. I would honestly use either power and weapon combo even in a large squad, as it is effectively making your 34pt Exarch do twice the work of anyone else, and that’s always great.

- Swooping Hawks – rapid shot. Six shots with S5 was fun, and seemed to make these small units punch just a bit harder. I was testing these units out, found them fun and just generically useful as they spread out to limit Obliterator placement. At 86pts, I didn’t mind if they lived or died, but I would struggle to say that this particular exarch power made much difference either way. I can see the argument for Suppressing Shot, and intend to test that soon as well.

I also tested out the custom craftworld powers, putting Eldrad back on the shelf to test out Expert Crafters (aka Salamanders) and Stealthy. They were both good, but I have to admit that Expert Crafters did add quite a lot of time as you are just constantly re-rolling stuff. The Wraithknight benefits from Stealthy, amusingly, so it helped keep him safe T1; it also meant that my opponent’s random long range shooting just didn’t do as much as normal, and I lost barely anything to his bolter fire for example. Swooping Hawks and Bikes both benefitted from 3+ saves, for example. Overall I don’t know if it helped more than Alaitoc would have, but then Alaitoc doesn’t let me reroll Starcannon or Reaper Launcher wound rolls, so I feel that I prefer this combo as a balanced option.

Ghostwalk never came up, the Wraithknight moved really fast anyway. Definitely worth considering for a Wraithblades unit in a Wave Serpent though.

 Charles Rampant wrote:
Hey all,

I wanted to join the discussion on here, as the recent PA changes have been jolly interesting. Like many, I saw the new Exarch powers as something tending towards MSU, especially as it would give lots of fun rules to play with. (The Goonhammer article especially noted this.) I played a friendly game on the weekend, where I used Janice the Wraithknight along with some MSU Aspect Warriors to test this theory out.

My list, roughly, was: Farseer (Guide, Fortune), Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Executioner), Warlock Skyrunner (Ghostwalk, Protect/Jinx), Wave Serpent, 2x six Swooping Hawks, 2x three Dark Reapers, nine Dire Avengers, Guardian Blob, Rangers, six Windriders with Scatter Lasers, Janice the Wraithknight with her amazing Suncannon and Shield.

I was curious to test out the MSU exarch powers, and also wanted to try the Windrunners with Scatters. The Wraithknight is a fun model, so I usually leap on it in friendly games, but it’s not really relevant to this discussion.

My opponent’s list was a Black Legion friendly special. 3 Oblits, a Vindicator, 5 Havocs with autocannons, two sorcerers with various things, 6 terminators with combi plasma and melta, a Decimator, a chainlord, 2x CSM squad and a 20 man Cultist squad. I won fairly handily, ramming the Wraithknight forward and soaking all his firepower with it (Protect and Fortune, hooray), while my opponent was quite unlucky and failed to eliminate either the two Reaper squads despite allocating both the Oblits and the Chainlord to them or the Wraithknight with the termie deep strike.

The exarch powers I tested were:
- Dire Avengers – Bladestorm – worked fine. Added two hits when the unit shot, which isn’t anything to sniff at, and makes a unit that is already not bad at Overwatch actually quite decent at it. I didn’t get a chance to test them with Guide or any re-rolls. Have no qualms, would use again when the Boys in Blue hit the table.

- Dark Reapers – tempest launcher with rain of death. Worked fine. I only needed to reroll the dice once, and kinda wished that I had the reroll ones instead the rest of the time. However the reliability is hard to ignore. I’d definitely consider the 1CP for both powers on this guy.

- Dark Reapers – reaper launcher with quick shot. Getting four missiles from a three man unit was obviously great, and I had no issues with them. I toyed with the AML, but didn’t quite jump that way this time. I would honestly use either power and weapon combo even in a large squad, as it is effectively making your 34pt Exarch do twice the work of anyone else, and that’s always great.

- Swooping Hawks – rapid shot. Six shots with S5 was fun, and seemed to make these small units punch just a bit harder. I was testing these units out, found them fun and just generically useful as they spread out to limit Obliterator placement. At 86pts, I didn’t mind if they lived or died, but I would struggle to say that this particular exarch power made much difference either way. I can see the argument for Suppressing Shot, and intend to test that soon as well.

I also tested out the custom craftworld powers, putting Eldrad back on the shelf to test out Expert Crafters (aka Salamanders) and Stealthy. They were both good, but I have to admit that Expert Crafters did add quite a lot of time as you are just constantly re-rolling stuff. The Wraithknight benefits from Stealthy, amusingly, so it helped keep him safe T1; it also meant that my opponent’s random long range shooting just didn’t do as much as normal, and I lost barely anything to his bolter fire for example. Swooping Hawks and Bikes both benefitted from 3+ saves, for example. Overall I don’t know if it helped more than Alaitoc would have, but then Alaitoc doesn’t let me reroll Starcannon or Reaper Launcher wound rolls, so I feel that I prefer this combo as a balanced option.

Ghostwalk never came up, the Wraithknight moved really fast anyway. Definitely worth considering for a Wraithblades unit in a Wave Serpent though.

With the reapers going for spearhead with 3x3 reapers and an autarch solves your re-roll ones problem as well as artisans re-rolls for those Dmg 3 missiles. I really rate the 3x3 reaper and autarch pocket. Put them in some awkward LOS blocking terrain and limited firing lines in the backfield and they will dot he work. As long as you saturate and have immediate threats they seem like a waste for long range AT firepower..

@ Tyranid horde & others the point I was trying to make with the walkers is you do not have to give them 2 Bls or two EMLs.. You can do one scat one BML. So you use your re-rolls on the Heavy single-shot weapon for hvt and hose chaff/infantry with scat lazor not caring about the re-rolls (unless you have already sucesfully wounded the HVT withut needing a re-roll...) More duality, more saturation. If one gets melted thats only a 13 pts extra loss as opposed to dual scats.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.

Would you consider runing Asurmen or still nah ?

@Charles rampant: Sadly you can't cast Protect on a Wraithknight.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@Charles rampant: Sadly you can't cast Protect on a Wraithknight.

Damn, of course you are right! I don't know how I forgot that, given that I knew not to expect Webway Gate or Lightning Fast Reflexes to work on her. Another nail in the coffin. It didn't matter in this game as I didn't pass enough Protect saves to have kept it alive, but I'll need to apologise to my opponent regardless.

Sidenote: I honestly hate how boring the Wraithknight is in comparison to the Imperial Knights. I wish we had relics to give them, and could make them characters and suchlike. At the moment it really is just a big dreadnought.

Argive wrote: With the reapers going for spearhead with 3x3 reapers and an autarch solves your re-roll ones problem as well as artisans re-rolls for those Dmg 3 missiles. I really rate the 3x3 reaper and autarch pocket. Put them in some awkward LOS blocking terrain and limited firing lines in the backfield and they will dot he work. As long as you saturate and have immediate threats they seem like a waste for long range AT firepower..

My main issue with that is that I only own two boxes of Dark Reapers, and thus only two exarchs! I'm not really desperate to rush out and buy another box of finecast if I can avoid it. However, I do see your point; such a detachment (maybe with a War Walker instead of the third Dark Reaper squad) is cheap and easy to add.

The Autarch is something that I normally take; I only own the plastic swoopyswoop version, who I like the look of, and he tends to be a reasonable but not very exciting addition to my forces. He babysits stuff in the back, positioning in light of my intended Guide target, and if required he'll rush forward as a suicidal power sword and Phoenix Gem wielder. One time he damaged a Rhino with his Fusion Pistol. I didn't take him this game because I was trying out Protect on the Wraithknight, and thus needed dual-Farseer, but I'll probably swap back in due course.

Allowing Runes of Battle powers to affect Wraithknights would make them much more competitive: double moving with a 2+, 4++ Sv, -1 to hit, and +1 to hit and wound! Possibly a bit much.

My main issue with them is the lack of mobility and firepower. Give it 14 inch move and fly so that it's actually more agile than Imp Knights. It also needs to shoot like a 400pt unit, the Suncannon + 2x Star Cannon version kills about 4 space marines.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Allowing Runes of Battle powers to affect Wraithknights would make them much more competitive: double moving with a 2+, 4++ Sv, -1 to hit, and +1 to hit and wound! Possibly a bit much.

My main issue with them is the lack of mobility and firepower. Give it 14 inch move and fly so that it's actually more agile than Imp Knights. It also needs to shoot like a 400pt unit, the Suncannon + 2x Star Cannon version kills about 4 space marines.

give the spiritseer a rule that lets his runes of battle affect any wraith host unit, not just infantry. That way you get more reasons to run one.
But yes, when comparing it to IKs its just a completely different ballpark. The fact that it has neither a higher thoughness nor higher movement speed is just stupid. (Wraith constructs are usually 1T above the imperium equivalent, either buff would help it).

also, the agile race having a knight that is almost impossible to charge with on turn 1 since it cant advance + charge, while the imperium has the option to do it with a more dangerous close quarter combar knight that deals more damage AND costs less is insulting.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.

Would you consider runing Asurmen or still nah ?

Anyone know how Sean Nayden ran his Avatar of Khaine?

karandrasss wrote:
With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?

I use warwalkers for this purpose. No one really wants to take 6 starcannon on the drop. Fire and fade not so much. Command rerolls (quicken/protect) and lightning fast burn through the CP really fast though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

karandrasss wrote:
With less Dark Reapers out there, who's receiving Fire and Fade / Forewarned?

I use warwalkers for this purpose. No one really wants to take 6 starcannon on the drop. Fire and fade not so much. Command rerolls (quicken/protect) and lightning fast burn through the CP really fast though.

warwalkers cant benefit from runes of battle not lightning fast reactions....

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
I had a match this week where i ran 20 Bladestorm Dire Avengers. They still die like flies, but the extra shots are really weighing in when you run them in numbers.
I also tried some Striking Scorpions, the MW on 5+ is a nice ability to snipe a character and then scythe through some chaff.

Would you consider runing Asurmen or still nah ?

Totally would, unless i actually wanted to win He's too expensive to buff cheap chaff we only take to generate xp.