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So the Autarch. What configuration are you planning to take? I'm thinking on taking him on foot, have him support Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders.

A Seer Council was harder to crack than a coco nut in former editions. Now it melts like snow.
E.g., a lascannon shot was inflicting one wound in former editions, so the Council had a 4++ inv. save and then if missed a fortune roll on 4+.
Now a lascannon shot inflicts D6 wounds and the fortune roll is on 5+.
Warlocks are also too expensive for my liking, 20 pts would have sufficed.

 wuestenfux wrote:
A Seer Council was harder to crack than a coco nut in former editions. Now it melts like snow.
E.g., a lascannon shot was inflicting one wound in former editions, so the Council had a 4++ inv. save and then if missed a fortune roll on 4+.
Now a lascannon shot inflicts D6 wounds and the fortune roll is on 5+.
Warlocks are also too expensive for my liking, 20 pts would have sufficed.

I supee agree and super disagree with you. I agree they are alittle lack luster with rend and 4++ save they feel like a very expensive and vulnerable squad.

They do have good damage out, but will always be out shined by something like shining soears. For almost the same price you get something thwt packs more punch a better native save and the same invuln.

Where I disagree is them bei ng cheaper. They simply can't be cheaper. Those buff they have access to are to intense, and almost always the best target for them will be some one else.

Though putting it all together they do make a super self contained hit squad. With web way portal they can drop down. Self quick, cast a powerful smite (or to hit buff themselves), and reduce the save of thier target on with the singing spears you can give the a pseudo +1 attack. As I said they won't be better than the buffs on another target, but it will be cheaper or more combat than x warlocks + thier target buffing unit.

mmimzie wrote:

I supee agree and super disagree with you. I agree they are alittle lack luster with rend and 4++ save they feel like a very expensive and vulnerable squad.

They do have good damage out, but will always be out shined by something like shining soears. For almost the same price you get something thwt packs more punch a better native save and the same invuln.

Where I disagree is them bei ng cheaper. They simply can't be cheaper. Those buff they have access to are to intense, and almost always the best target for them will be some one else.

Though putting it all together they do make a super self contained hit squad. With web way portal they can drop down. Self quick, cast a powerful smite (or to hit buff themselves), and reduce the save of thier target on with the singing spears you can give the a pseudo +1 attack. As I said they won't be better than the buffs on another target, but it will be cheaper or more combat than x warlocks + thier target buffing unit.

I mean, Astropaths are 15 points, are Characters, and are each 1/1/1 psykers, albeit with a bad smite (which is still better than a standalone Warlock's). I think 20 points would be reasonable for individual Warlocks, and certainly in a Conclave you wouldn't want to pay more than this. You get to manifest 1 power per 3 Warlocks. As-is you have to spend 120 points to get 2 casts, which degrades to 1 at the first casualty.

mmimzie wrote:

yeah currently the best turn 1 charge options availible to us are. Court of the young king Biel-tan only which is 2-3 (even just 2 is a pretty decent bonus), and i prefer scoprs for this because they come with thier own deepstrike mechanic. Also, since your deep striking you'll be out of the range of most flamers so the banshee mask isn't such a big deal. Saim-Hann has decent turn one charge option in the form of warriors of the raging winds, allows bike to advance and charge pulling off a 22" move which in many deployment maps is a really easy turn 1 charge. These two strategems are not availible to ynnari. units of 3 vypers move 20" if not knocked down to 2, and with saim-hann craftworld giving them re-roll charges can make a good first turn charge to turn off a unit's shooting.


One small nod craftworld eldar have over taking the units in ynnari would be war lord traits and relics. Neither can be takening in ynnari as you war lord must be one of the the ynnari dudes. The Biel-tan relic the spirit stone is very nice because given to a warlock allows you to reroll your quick spell cast (which is another turn 1 charge options).

Though i would like a tune down on the ynnari perhaps blocking them from taking aspect warriors or something. Not that i think ynnari is wildly over powered; more that ithink eldar is actualy at a good spot, but ynnari can kind of do a lot of it better. I definitly think thier are a few nice things eldar can do over ynnari, but those are pretty small things when compared to strength from death and how it can be utilized.

I don't see why Ynnari couldn't use the Biel-Tan or Saim-Hann stratagems, provided you've also got a Craftworlds detachment.

But yes, the main drawback of taking any Ynnari units is that you lose access to warlord stuff. I would note that in the case of the Craftworld codex this is an especially minor cost -- Craftworld warlord traits and relics are just about the worst of any codex yet released. Like, as soon as there's an Ynnari or Harlequin or Dark Eldar codex you're probably going to want a warlord from one of those armies instead so that you can take actually-good stuff. The most valuable thing about having a Craftworlds warlord is Path of Command, which requires that you have an Autarch who is on the battlefield (not in a transport, not in reserve, etc.), and even when it works this is only half as good as other factions' warlord traits. None of the actual warlord traits are notably good. The relics are all just terrible. Your own recommendation is a relic that will typically be worth about 1 CP over the course of a game. You could also take Faolchu's Wing to save a couple points on wings or a bike, or Blazing Star of Vaul to slightly increase a model's shooting output.

mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...

I’d be very interested if they did make this change. For one, it’d seriously hurt Daemons and Astra Militarum smite spam lists, but could also affect other armies depending on how they rule it (i.e is Grey Knight “smite” the same Smite? Is “Destructor” still smite?)

Beyond that, I don’t really see it affecting Eldar too much. The reason why I want to run 7 Psykers + Hemlocks, is not because I want to spam smite, it’s because I want all the powers I can get. Fortune, Doom, Guide, Executioner. Conceal, Protect, Jinx, Quicken, Enhance, Empower and Restrain.

Sure, I’d have all the possible smites if I really really needed them, but it wouldn’t be my initial “go to”.

It kind of bugs me that one of the best psychic races in the entire 40k universe has psykers that only know 1 power (granted it’s 2 powers but only 1 option). I’d be a lot happier if it was, “Know 2 powers, cast 1”. As it stands a Primaris Psyker is more knowledgeable of the Warp than a Warlock or Spiritseer.

 Knight wrote:
So the Autarch. What configuration are you planning to take? I'm thinking on taking him on foot, have him support Dire Avengers and Guardian Defenders.

I'm liking the winged autarch. Skyleap seems really good for jumping buffs, and survivability. However, I do think the skyrunner is probably the best option. I'll grab both, as I love the models, but I'll probably run the skyrunner.

If your warlord is Saim-hann can you take a biel-tan relic on a biel-tan character in your army???

Dionysodorus wrote:

mmimzie wrote:


I don't see why Ynnari couldn't use the Biel-Tan or Saim-Hann stratagems, provided you've also got a Craftworlds detachment.

But yes, the main drawback of taking any Ynnari units is that you lose access to warlord stuff. I would note that in the case of the Craftworld codex this is an especially minor cost -- Craftworld warlord traits and relics are just about the worst of any codex yet released. Like, as soon as there's an Ynnari or Harlequin or Dark Eldar codex you're probably going to want a warlord from one of those armies instead so that you can take actually-good stuff. The most valuable thing about having a Craftworlds warlord is Path of Command, which requires that you have an Autarch who is on the battlefield (not in a transport, not in reserve, etc.), and even when it works this is only half as good as other factions' warlord traits. None of the actual warlord traits are notably good. The relics are all just terrible. Your own recommendation is a relic that will typically be worth about 1 CP over the course of a game. You could also take Faolchu's Wing to save a couple points on wings or a bike, or Blazing Star of Vaul to slightly increase a model's shooting output.

Again I see what your saying, but i feel they gotta cost 30. They are actually aren't that terrible when attack multi wound models, and if you think of a web way striking warlock squads buffing it self. they come pretty close to what you get out of a shining spear and genestealer level of alpha strike power which are some pretty awesome melee units. Durability wise i totally agree they are really expensive, and i think your paying a tax for the ability to take those buffs and pass them onto different units. I think the best compromise would be to make it so warlock council can only buf itself and then has a reduced price maybe something like 20 points. Which seems fair as their power relies on them getting thier abilities off and if they fail or are denied they become a bit lack luster.

Relic might be just one CP if you only use it once, but for a turn 1 charge opportunity?? i'd like my 82% chance to get off quicken on my shining spears over just a 52% chance or to have to drop a command point on it when i optimized my list to use exactly all the CP i have on other things. Heck it's multiple CP on other powers like enhance/Protect/etc where they have value outside of turn 1 and you'll want to keep using it. Honestly to me it's the only relic. That and the saim-hann relic and warlord trait combo <.< though that's more a dream scenario kind of thing haha!

mokoshkana wrote:
Just an FYI for everyone getting geeked up about bringing a boatload of psykers. There is a runmour floating around the tournament scene that Chapter Approved will implement a new rule for Smite, which will increase the Warp Charge requirement by 1 for each successful cast (i.e. first smite is 5, second is 6, third is 7... and so on). So running a bunch of hemlock/spiritseer/warlock models could crush you on diminishing returns. Something to think about when investing in the future...

I've played 2 games with the new Codex. 5 Psykers in 1, 2 in the second. I have cast Smite/Destructor less than 5 times, easily, probably less than 3. Runes of Battle are REALLY good. They will do a whole lot more than a mortal wound here and there. This rumor should be a non-factor for Eldar armies, since the Psychic phase will be where the force multiplication really hurts your opponents. This change will also make powers like Mind War and Executioner a lot better, since right now it just feels better to take support spells for multiplication and then smite for filler when needed, but I still don't think they'll jump in priority over things like Guide and Doom.

Edit: Kdesh beat me to the point But going to leave the post because I think the Runes of Battle and Fate are just that good... Smite spamming feels like a hindrance for what we could be doing

I have heard that Smite will be limited to 3 uses per turn in Chapter Approved.

Also GW facebook has apparently made it clear that you can NOT take the index autarch stuff. Someone asked and they said some things about how "forcing a new hobbyist to convert wouldn't be cool" but how hey you could just make your own rules for it (like anyone will).

See reddit post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/79ipj0/today_from_games_workshop_after_removing_all/

Wayniac wrote:
I have heard that Smite will be limited to 3 uses per turn in Chapter Approved.

Also GW facebook has apparently made it clear that you can NOT take the index autarch stuff. Someone asked and they said some things about how "forcing a new hobbyist to convert wouldn't be cool" but how hey you could just make your own rules for it (like anyone will).

See reddit post here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/79ipj0/today_from_games_workshop_after_removing_all/

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.

 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.

Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.

Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.

...that last one is still a bit up in the air for now. I'm hoping GW makes the right decision.

Somewhat offtopic, but I like Fuegan. "Only concentrated beam penetrates". ~hohoho
"and remember, in the end, everything burns."

I think I want to play this guy just to say a few of these lines, since he's the funniest being both meltablaster and ax berserker. I doub't he'll melee other powerful characters out there tho.

mmimzie wrote:
I think scorpions edge out banshees in any situation other than vehicles.

Sorry if it was already answered, but it's actually any situation when enemy is infantry. Mandiblasters don't work on anything but, so the moment you fights beasts, bikers, monsters, whatever - you're out of your mortal wounds.

Fafnir wrote:

Purifying Tempest wrote:

 RuneGrey wrote:

At the same time, we've had the marketing team say that there's no problem with using index points and rules for things that they don't make a model for, but people converted. Facebook is always best taken with a pinch of salt, since they contradict themselves there fairly often.

Never trust sales people!

Honestly, I am more sad-faced by not being able to Phoenix Gem the Avatar for extra lawls.

...that last one is still a bit up in the air for now. I'm hoping GW makes the right decision.

i agree. I think they should just have a named character keyword. Make that nice and easy

Shadenuat wrote:Somewhat offtopic, but I like Fuegan. "Only concentrated beam penetrates". ~hohoho
"and remember, in the end, everything burns."

I think I want to play this guy just to say a few of these lines, since he's the funniest being both meltablaster and ax berserker. I doub't he'll melee other powerful characters out there tho.

mmimzie wrote:
I think scorpions edge out banshees in any situation other than vehicles.

Sorry if it was already answered, but it's actually any situation when enemy is infantry. Mandiblasters don't work on anything but, so the moment you fights beasts, bikers, monsters, whatever - you're out of your mortal wounds.

Yeah your most definitly right, but i figured people would assume as much. Actualy if the target is in cover you don't have to worry about the mandiblaster. That +1 one really helps out.

Anyone else notice that Fortune replaces similar rules, rather than no working at all?
So you can Fortune a vehicle with Spirit Stones or any Ulthwe unit and get a 5+++ instead of just the 6+++. Not a bad compromise.

I am loving the idea of a large Shining Spear unit with Quicken and protect thrown on them. 2+/3++ against shooting and a 32" move + 2D6" charge? Yes please
Make them Biel-tan to reroll 1's for their Cats, or Saim-hann to really make sure they can charge literally any unit on the table.

I love the prices and sheer amount of +Strength power weapons. Eldar probably found some closed garage somewhere which was full of them. Makes all other options useless tho and more like an aesthetics thing, since every banshee would take executioner, every scorpion would grab cheap claw, even simpliest Autarch on foot would strike with S6, hitting on 3+ re-roll 1s, etc.
Some of them (like scorpion's claw when compared to biting blade) are even seem *too* cheap to me. Sure we won't multiply our elfs Strength to 8, but there is no penalty to hit either.

I played everything through years, from 4th edition Eldrad-Scatterwalkers-Direserpents, played Seer Council, scatbikes, eva, but I never played actual aspects except the 6 fire dragons in falcon/serpent. Now they are all seem very, very play-able to me, and some even, well...

Tau pathfinder with Rail-rifle (strength 6) with BS 4+ & 5+ armor save costs same as our Dark Reaper. Think about it.

Hawks are also interesting, Shining spears too.

Warp Spiders I think are still not there, they really needed that "wound in initiative" but now there is not one, so you can spend 1 CP and deep strike 20 ulthwe guardians with BS2+ and they will do the job it better than Spiders I think; while Hawks can just lay lazor fire from safe distance sitting in cover with Alaitoc trait on top.
Although they *did* get their DS which is simply marvellous. It's just that their guns don't do anything special compared to simple shuriken spam. Maybe something like "+1 damage if target wounds are 3 or more unless it's a vehicle" or something... but whatever. Still a great update.

Ooh and they can shoot after fall back. Nice!

I have recently taken the plunge and purchased a Scorpion Heavy Grav Tank (what a moron )

Mostly for a painting project, but I know I will eventually bring it against my friends LOW's. Ill keep it mostly stock in game but obviously Spirit Stones for 10 points is a no brainer.

Can anyone think of any stratagem/psychic/other shenanigans when using a Super Heavy Tank with such a gratuitous amount of firepower? All I can think of is perhaps using Cloudstrike to shield it from a turn 1 beating, and it would obviously be a hilarious candidate for the Forewarned stratagem, with the ability to pretty much auto-delete an enemy deepstriker of your choice when next to a Farseer. As far as I can tell it meets the keyword requisites to use these stratagems at least.

Spartacus wrote:
I have recently taken the plunge and purchased a Scorpion Heavy Grav Tank (what a moron )

Mostly for a painting project, but I know I will eventually bring it against my friends LOW's. Ill keep it mostly stock in game but obviously Spirit Stones for 10 points is a no brainer.

Can anyone think of any stratagem/psychic/other shenanigans when using a Super Heavy Tank with such a gratuitous amount of firepower? All I can think of is perhaps using Cloudstrike to shield it from a turn 1 beating, and it would obviously be a hilarious candidate for the Forewarned stratagem, with the ability to pretty much auto-delete an enemy deepstriker of your choice when next to a Farseer. As far as I can tell it meets the keyword requisites to use these stratagems at least.

At a glance: Guide, Doom, Jinx, and Phatasm all seem decent things to get more out of the tank.

Guide to make sure those high cost shots land, especially if it is alpha struck but not killed.

Doom because... it is probably the best spell in Runes of Fate... poke a unit, press delete key.

Jinx will help to soften irritating invulnerable saves.

You can also split Doom and Jinx to give the super heavy two targets to split fire.

Phantasm allows you to deploy in X configuration, and then decide to move your Farseer + Super Heavy tank close together to leverage Forewarned to counter deep striking units that can threaten the Scorpion.

I'm pretty sure Forewarned allows any Asuryani unit within 6" of the Farseer to fire. Phantasm allows up to whatever number of Asuryani to redeploy after setup. Unfortunately, the buffing side of Runes of Battle seem largely restricted to Infantry/Biker units, meaning you'll have to leverage the debuffing side to get some mileage out of Warlocks.

 Galef wrote:
Anyone else notice that Fortune replaces similar rules, rather than no working at all?
So you can Fortune a vehicle with Spirit Stones or any Ulthwe unit and get a 5+++ instead of just the 6+++. Not a bad compromise.

I am loving the idea of a large Shining Spear unit with Quicken and protect thrown on them. 2+/3++ against shooting and a 32" move + 2D6" charge? Yes please
Make them Biel-tan to reroll 1's for their Cats, or Saim-hann to really make sure they can charge literally any unit on the table.

Yes sure on the spears sure. On top of protect you can use the -1 to hit strategem if a knight assigns a bunch of attacks to your squads and/or use the webway to hide them

List i'm plunking at is 2x9spear units in saim-hann with an autarch (you get that biel-tan reroll 1's. The autarch can also take the warlord trait that allows you to ignore over watch or the falcon swiftness warlord trait depending on the opponent. That detachment also has 3 more min squads of spears with exarch and star lance in it as well. Haven't gotten a chance to mess with it because i'm covering up a bunch of really cool shining spears. will be 2 weeks before its operation. I'm tempted to bust one of the units of 9 down to 2 more 3 man squads and using the points elsewhere, and keeping the 9 man squad in the webway.

i like the web way command point because you can wait to use it, and see if your opponent puts any nail in your side scouts down. Other deepstriking ubnits have to pay a points tax to get that ability, and if you don't use the deep strike you almost wasting points.

GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.

Wayniac wrote:
GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.

Gonna want to see the quote on that one.

Wayniac wrote:
GW Facebook group has now stated that you CAN, in fact, use the Index entry for Autarchs with the updated points values from the codex. This apparently goes for anything, so for example IG could take the Index commissar. So basically, if you ever don't like the codex or faq update to something, you can "revert" to using the Index entry for it, no matter what, and simply use the updated points from the codex with the Index entry.

In other words, time to take Autarchs with reaper launchers and that sniper warlord trait.

You can likely expect TO's to nix this for tournament play.

I am pretty sure GW will continue allowing use of Index entries that didn't make it to the Codex. Auto-cannon Dreads and Biker Librarians are still legal afterall.

The REAL question is: If you can take the Index Autarch with Codex prices, which Banshee mask do you use?
The one on the Index datasheet does something very different (and inferior) to the Banshee Mask in the Codex. But if you are taking the Index Autarch (that has the rule right on it for Banshee Mask) which rule do you use?

I'd like to use the Codex Banshee mask to ignore overwatch with my Autarch, but considering that you need to use the entry from the Index just to get the option of using the mask, I'd say you need to use the "always goes first" rule instead (at which point you'd be better off using Mandiblasters.

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Image:



So this would mean that you could always choose to use the index datasheet with the codex points values even when the codex overrides an entry in the index (as the Autarch does). Even if the codex has an updated entry, you can opt to use the index version instead. So, going by that logic, if you don't like the recent change to Commissars, you can just use the index datasheet instead. If, in the future, you dislike how they changed a unit, you can use the index version instead.

I don't trust GW Facebook guys.

I don't either, but that seems to be the case at he moment, crazy as it is. FWIW Frontline Gaming has stated for ITC events you must use the most recent version, you can't pick and choose.

ryzouken wrote:
He falls under the table of special characters in the points section, if nothing else.

That points section isn't enough to argue a generic instance is unique.

Does 40k have "you may only take on instance of this warscroll" like AoS? That would be your indicator if nothing else.

Joey86 wrote:About the Avatar.
He is not THE Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine. Instead he is
A Avatar of Khaela Mensha Khaine.

"an" But this is correct. You cannot have 2 Yvrainnes, you could have a Lugganeth Avatar and an Ulthwe Avatar both being distinct. That alone should pretty much stop people thinking he is a named character.

Cream Tea wrote:, and most people seem to agree. ."

The problem is that is the vocal minority weighing in and I wouldn't take that to a game and explain it to my opponent that "I found some people on the net that agree with me".

Nah i think he's really just saying it in the same way you can house rule the game. Or house rule that all space marines can fly because they are so buff, etc. They'd need to FAQ or errata it for this to be the official way to go about it. Or do a warhammer community post.

Wayniac wrote:

So this would mean that you could always choose to use the index datasheet with the codex points values even when the codex overrides an entry in the index (as the Autarch does). Even if the codex has an updated entry, you can opt to use the index version instead. So, going by that logic, if you don't like the recent change to Commissars, you can just use the index datasheet instead. If, in the future, you dislike how they changed a unit, you can use the index version instead.

This seems like a very implausible reading of what they're trying to say. The context here is weapon options. Possibly they're just reading that Warhammer Community article and doing their best to interpret it. But note that the Community article is explicit that you've got to use updated rules in general. This is obviously in need of a FAQ but I don't think there's any worry about it being possible to go back and use pre-nerf Commissars or whatever.

I think the line is drawn at what you consider "updated rules". Using the Autarch as an example, there are no "updated" rules for an Autarch with Jump Generator and Reaper launcher, so you can clearly use the Index datasheet to represent that option.

What you probably cannot do is take a Skyrunner Autarch with Laser lance AND Fusion gun. Because while that option was a valid Index entry, the updated Skyrunner only allows Laser lance OR Fusion gun. But does this also mean that you cannot give that Autarch a Banshee mask? That line is a bit more fuzzy.

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