Codex: Eldar Craftworlds - A Portal Opens, The Craftworlds Emerge, Battle Begins!

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**mmimzie**

The way in running the spears currently

Autarch skyrunner (eye for distant events)
1 far seer
1 warlocks skyrunner (enhance or empower)
2warlocks (protect/quick)
1 hemlock (jinx)

9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) webway striking
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) on the table

I run it saim-hann as modt super competivitice list the -1 to hit doesnt go very far. (Probably why none of the -1 to hit armies havent won any major tournaments). Saim hann gives me the oppurtinity to get first turn charges with bike squads. One getting quickend and one using the saim-hann stratagey. The other thing is the autarch sky runner can turn 1 charge and soak up over watch for one of your bike squad of thier is a crazy flamer unit you are worried about. It also protects against failing short charges.

The modules around this army core have changed in my mind alot, but that core seems pretty solid.

**Niiru**

Galef wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.

Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.

-

i'd agree that it's probably a waste to Webway the warlock, as you should be able to get him in range of them usually anyway for Quicken. You could use that Webway slot to deepstrike another big unit of something scary, to divert some attention from the Spears. Or save your 2CP and use something like Scorpions/Warpspiders who can deepstrike for free alongside the spears.

**em_en_oh_pee**

Niiru wrote:
Galef wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
This is phenomenally powerful and is easily one of the best uses of Webway Strike. Though you probably want to go with a bigger squad since you're spending a CP and already planning on using Quicken. You don't need to deep strike a Warlock because Quicken has 18" range and Spears move 16" after getting hit with it. Especially if you're using a biker Warlock it's not going to be hard to reach one of the Spears unless you're wanting them to come on on your opponent's table edge (and he hasn't denied you the ability to do that). Consider also having another RoB caster use Protect since it gives them a 2+/3++.

Exactly. It's a lot of points and you risk something not going off (both powers need 7+) but if you can get 7-9 Spears to drop in, get Protect, then Quikcen them, you can assault pretty much anything you want. Preferably multiple units so you can tie up enemy shooting.

-

i'd agree that it's probably a waste to Webway the warlock, as you should be able to get him in range of them usually anyway for Quicken. You could use that Webway slot to deepstrike another big unit of something scary, to divert some attention from the Spears. Or save your 2CP and use something like Scorpions/Warpspiders who can deepstrike for free alongside the spears.

You can always Swiftshroud them into place, because who isn't taking Alaitoc?

**Xenomancers**

mmimzie wrote:
The way in running the spears currently

Autarch skyrunner (eye for distant events)
1 far seer
1 warlocks skyrunner (enhance or empower)
2warlocks (protect/quick)
1 hemlock (jinx)

9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) webway striking
9x spear squad (w/ exarch and star) on the table

I run it saim-hann as modt super competivitice list the -1 to hit doesnt go very far. (Probably why none of the -1 to hit armies havent won any major tournaments). Saim hann gives me the oppurtinity to get first turn charges with bike squads. One getting quickend and one using the saim-hann stratagey. The other thing is the autarch sky runner can turn 1 charge and soak up over watch for one of your bike squad of thier is a crazy flamer unit you are worried about. It also protects against failing short charges.

The modules around this army core have changed in my mind alot, but that core seems pretty solid.

-1 to hit is great on it's own but if I can take it away from you and all I have to do is get close to you to shut it down it's just mitigation of damage on turn 1. That is good an all but I think Ulthwe is equally competitive. Siamhan is actaully the best way to run your shinning spears due to your advance and charge stratagem.

**Bharring**

But to take it away you need to come within 12".

Most CWE infantry want you within 12".

Especially Spears.

**Dionysodorus**

I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.

I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.

But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.

**Xenomancers**

Bharring wrote:
But to take it away you need to come within 12".

Most CWE infantry want you within 12".

Especially Spears.

Sounds like a battle to me. LOL. 50% chance to win or lose a fair fight. Also - spears are coming to me anyways I assume - and it's going to suck regardless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.

Depends on how big of a blow you want to make. Think about how big of a move you need to get into the perfect possition to say...1 shot a lemonruss with your lasers - do huge damage to an infantry unit with your TLSC and then charge 3-4 units. That's why I like Siamhan spears - they just have the highest potential damage. They are easier to kill first turn BUT after that with fortune/protect/and conceal on them - they are almost impossible to kill anyways. Losing the ability to advance and fire at full BS is a huge detriment for a ynnari spears - they can still advance and charge with the strategem but I expect these kinds of interactions are going to go away pretty quick. Ynnari should not be able to use craftworld strategems IMO.

**mmimzie**

Dionysodorus wrote:
I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.

I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.

But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.

Ynnari would be good, but I wouldn't rag So hard on the saim-hann trait. Failing your charge is TERRIBLE like game lovingly bad. It's just one more thing to take the edge off needing to cast quicken and charge. Court of the young king is nic3 for that, but it's mutually exclusive with respects to the saim-hann stratagem which is basicly +6 to your charge and reroll 1s.

**Bharring**

Sammhainn also gives them reroll charges. I've failed enough sub-6" charges to want that on my Swordwind force, and it has no Windriders (Still went Uthwe, because that's what my guys have always been, but it was tempting).

I like MSU because they're easier to hide. Also, they're small enough a threat where the opponent may not focus on them, while I have enough points left to bring other threats. But big enough that, if the opponent doesn't focus on them, they can do some damage.

If you're doing lots of psker buffs, larger units are obvious. But if not, I'd rather have 2 3-mans than 1 6-man.

**Dionysodorus**

mmimzie wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
I think a big squad of Saim-Hann Spears can be a great choice for Ynnari, since they can use the excellent stratagem and only lose the poor Attribute (which is particularly unappealing for Spears since they really want to be charging from within 6"). But for big units of Craftworld Spears with Quicken or MSU Spears it's got to be Alatoic or Ulthwe.

I prefer Alatoic for MSU Spears because getting them there alive is all-important. They're screened with Rangers turn 1 and you can't move within 24" of them without risking a charge. Only flyers can actually alpha strike them from within 12", and Spears eat flyers for breakfast.

But Ulthwe is probably best for the Quicken bomb since they're going to be spread out in a line spanning the whole front of your opponent's army. They're going to be within 12" of almost everything every turn.

Ynnari would be good, but I wouldn't rag So hard on the saim-hann trait. Failing your charge is TERRIBLE like game lovingly bad. It's just one more thing to take the edge off needing to cast quicken and charge. Court of the young king is nic3 for that, but it's mutually exclusive with respects to the saim-hann stratagem which is basicly +6 to your charge and reroll 1s.

The thing is, using a CP to re-roll one of your charge dice is about as good as re-rolling both. For stuff that's aiming for pretty safe charges anyway, the Saim-Hann Attribute is typically going to work out to be worth a lot less than a single CP per unit per game. Like, even if you're Saim-Hann do you try to make a 10" charge with your 3-man unit or do you just Advance and then shoot with your lances instead? Re-rolling charges is primarily useful for armies that are planning to try to make a lot of risky charges. It's a big deal if you're deep-striking in five or six CC units. You expect to get 4 re-rolls off of it in that case, and you wouldn't even have the option to use CP for all of those if you brought everything in at once. There are probably Chaos lists that make good use of the Renegades trait. If Tyranids are getting something like this there will be builds that make good use of it. But you don't see many Eldar armies that benefit much. Certainly it seems like a no-brainer to swap it for Strength from Death.

**Bharring**

That makes a lot of sense. If Boyz fail a charge, well, they're counting on numbers getting them through the shooting phase. If CWE fail a charge, they're usually toast.

**Fafnir**

Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.

Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.

**xmbk**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Spears do far more damage than Hemlocks if they get to do everything. MSU Spears are 2-4x as efficient as undenied Smiting Hemlocks (at 200 points) vs GEQs, MEQs, MEQs in cover, and Razorbacks. They're even more efficient against everything if they don't get to charge but do still shoot their lances, and are better against GEQs and competitive against MEQs with just their catapults.

But yeah, Spears are generally less durable against many short-ranged weapons. MSU Spears take about twice as much damage from bolters or assault cannons. On the other hand, they're slightly more durable vs overcharged plasma and a lot more durable vs d6 damage weapons.

I feel like both are excellent units and I'd really want to include at least one unit of Spears and 1 Hemlock in every list. Like I said earlier, the big issue with MSU Spears is just that they're not reliable turn 1 damage. However, I've found that Alatoic lists can generally afford to take a turn or even two of shooting. You can move most of your stuff up behind a Ranger screen to be in position for a turn 2 offensive. Nothing is very threatening to your Rangers aside from deep-strikers or very fast CC, and if you have Spears behind the Rangers you're going to come out ahead on that trade every time.

But a single 9-man Spears unit stands on its own as one of the strongest choices in the codex. It doesn't take much babysitting to make it incredibly threatening -- after Protect and a single cast of Quicken, everything else is gravy. I'd probably throw in Fortune in case of mortal wounds but not bother with offensive buffs. It's not "fire and forget". It's incredibly hard to kill and it can't be tied up. If Ynnari there's really nothing else in the codex that can realistically compete with its damage output.

Yeah, killing troops wasn't really the role I was thinking about. Spears kill T7 better, Hemlocks are better vs T8, T6 can go either way. But the problem of range remains for Spears. Against a good opponent, they will be sacrificed to take anything important out, and even then they won't reach something that your opponent really wants to protect. And they are significantly more fragile than Hemlocks, especially since it's harder to stay outside 12", and they can be cc'd. Hemlocks will do more damage because they will be alive longer.

MSU Spears are certainly more survivable, and I like that role. But a big Reaper unit is a safer bet for buffing, and Hemlocks are much better for screening and going big game hunting.

**Galef**

Fafnir wrote:
Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.

Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.

Well, the CW attributes & stratagems are worth getting into the list somehow. Taking an <Alaitoc> Flyer detachment is enough to get access to the stratagems and vehicles can't get SfD anyway.
But othersiw, yes, Ynnari is still going to be the way to go.

-

**mmimzie**

I definitly agree strength from death is good accross the board. I definitly can't say otherwise.

However you do drop battle focus on your spears who's shooting will all be -1 to hit if you advance. Which is alot of shooting. That said shooting or attack twice rid nice. I don't think you can charge twice atleast not until after the charge phase.

I think I feel good putting saim-hann spears in my list if I'm bringing 2 squads and I intend to use the stratagem. Access to advance to get into range, and refilling charges without need to waste cp, or with the option to use CP is the odds of rolling one die is better than both. Is pretty good. Even more so as my list has forewarning scat bike to protect againt enemy drops.

Though i could admit thr ynnari ie most likely abit better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

xmbk wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
Spears do far more damage than Hemlocks if they get to do everything. MSU Spears are 2-4x as efficient as undenied Smiting Hemlocks (at 200 points) vs GEQs, MEQs, MEQs in cover, and Razorbacks. They're even more efficient against everything if they don't get to charge but do still shoot their lances, and are better against GEQs and competitive against MEQs with just their catapults.

But yeah, Spears are generally less durable against many short-ranged weapons. MSU Spears take about twice as much damage from bolters or assault cannons. On the other hand, they're slightly more durable vs overcharged plasma and a lot more durable vs d6 damage weapons.

I feel like both are excellent units and I'd really want to include at least one unit of Spears and 1 Hemlock in every list. Like I said earlier, the big issue with MSU Spears is just that they're not reliable turn 1 damage. However, I've found that Alatoic lists can generally afford to take a turn or even two of shooting. You can move most of your stuff up behind a Ranger screen to be in position for a turn 2 offensive. Nothing is very threatening to your Rangers aside from deep-strikers or very fast CC, and if you have Spears behind the Rangers you're going to come out ahead on that trade every time.

But a single 9-man Spears unit stands on its own as one of the strongest choices in the codex. It doesn't take much babysitting to make it incredibly threatening -- after Protect and a single cast of Quicken, everything else is gravy. I'd probably throw in Fortune in case of mortal wounds but not bother with offensive buffs. It's not "fire and forget". It's incredibly hard to kill and it can't be tied up. If Ynnari there's really nothing else in the codex that can realistically compete with its damage output.

Yeah, killing troops wasn't really the role I was thinking about. Spears kill T7 better, Hemlocks are better vs T8, T6 can go either way. But the problem of range remains for Spears. Against a good opponent, they will be sacrificed to take anything important out, and even then they won't reach something that your opponent really wants to protect. And they are significantly more fragile than Hemlocks, especially since it's harder to stay outside 12", and they can be cc'd. Hemlocks will do more damage because they will be alive longer.

MSU Spears are certainly more survivable, and I like that role. But a big Reaper unit is a safer bet for buffing, and Hemlocks are much better for screening and going big game hunting.

Quicken plus double advance charging saim-hann are fast enough to reach anything. They fly and can end charge inside your bubble wrap. This does allot enemy's to corner themselves and bubble wrap all the way around vehicles, but with flying pile is you can oil in in such away that you can still lock important models in combat that don't want to be in combat.

On top of that spears have no bad targets than to having do look kuch fight power, and so many multidamage attacks. They are accross the board great.

As you, I and everyone has said though. Being closer is spookier and leaves you more vulnerable to damage, but the spears are tough as snot.

**Dionysodorus**

Fafnir wrote:
Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.

Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.

I strongly disagree. Yeah, you'd generally like to have your big unit of deep-striking Guardians or Spears be Ynnari. You'd prefer that your big unit of Reapers be Ynnari. But a typical Ynnari list also contains a bunch of Soulburst fodder for other units, and you'd prefer that these have Craftworld Attributes. MSU Spears are a great accompaniment to your other units, because they're super-efficient on offense and if they die your big units will get to Soulburst. These can be Alatoic for added turn 1 durability, before your big Spears unit comes in. Guardians in Serpents are probably best as Biel-Tan or Ulthwe rather than Ynnari. Even if their passengers are Ynnari, your vehicles themselves really want to be Alatoic or Ulthwe. Rangers are obviously best as Alatoic. Swooping Hawks and MSU Reapers probably want to be Alatoic too. I think there's probably even a case for small units of Alatoic Shadow Spectres, despite their Soulburst being so good. It's really just the Iyanden and Saim-Hann Attributes that jump out to me as "basically worse than other options in every realistic scenario". Even Biel-Tan has a place, even if it's pretty limited to Serpents with Guardians or Avengers.

Now, the warlord traits and relics are pretty bad, yeah. It's unfortunate that there's very little downside to bringing an Ynnari detachment, since you lose out on so little by not having a Craftworld warlord, and this will only get worse as time goes on.

**Xenomancers**

I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dionysodorus wrote:
Fafnir wrote:
Honestly, it feels like a no-brainer to swap Strength from Death for pretty much any of our faction traits or relics.

Really, the only things that pure Craftworld lists have going for them are those aforementioned faction traits and battle focus, which are both pretty forgettable in comparison, and the Avatar of Khaine, which is absolute garbage.

I strongly disagree. Yeah, you'd generally like to have your big unit of deep-striking Guardians or Spears be Ynnari. You'd prefer that your big unit of Reapers be Ynnari. But a typical Ynnari list also contains a bunch of Soulburst fodder for other units, and you'd prefer that these have Craftworld Attributes. MSU Spears are a great accompaniment to your other units, because they're super-efficient on offense and if they die your big units will get to Soulburst. These can be Alatoic for added turn 1 durability, before your big Spears unit comes in. Guardians in Serpents are probably best as Biel-Tan or Ulthwe rather than Ynnari. Even if their passengers are Ynnari, your vehicles themselves really want to be Alatoic or Ulthwe. Rangers are obviously best as Alatoic. Swooping Hawks and MSU Reapers probably want to be Alatoic too. I think there's probably even a case for small units of Alatoic Shadow Spectres, despite their Soulburst being so good. It's really just the Iyanden and Saim-Hann Attributes that jump out to me as "basically worse than other options in every realistic scenario". Even Biel-Tan has a place, even if it's pretty limited to Serpents with Guardians or Avengers.

Now, the warlord traits and relics are pretty bad, yeah. It's unfortunate that there's very little downside to bringing an Ynnari detachment, since you lose out on so little by not having a Craftworld warlord, and this will only get worse as time goes on.

Except Ynnari took a big nerf in this edition. No more webwayportal. Deep strike has to be 9" away. Spamming small units means you are going second most the time. Soul burst can only affect 1 unit and not 2. Plus loss of army traits for being ynnari. I'm not going to argue about a 10 man dark reaper shooting twice being amazing. However a dark reaper unit that is harder to kill might actually be a better choice. Also - Yvraine baby sitting some dark reapers is a 135 point investment - that is the cost of 5 dark reapers now...assuming your opponent is going to target reapers first...(why wouldn't they) and you are missing out on a defensive trait like ulthwe or aliotoc for every unit in that detachment. It doesn't really seem like auto include to me. It just seems like a reasonable choice to be made. I think spears benefit more from being craftworld anyways...really the only really obviously better use of ynnari is for guardian drops because they get to shoot twice...I have made ynnari list that focus around them and I was not satisfied with the end result. The requirements of attaining command points/ having 3-4 warlocks and a farseer. Spending another 135 on yvraine is just really taxing - to me anyways.

**Niiru**

Xenomancers wrote:
I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.

Well for a start, there's only 27 Eldar stratagems (I think), and there's no reason to think Ynnari would get that many as they don't have the additional Craftworld or Unit specific ones. I suspect they'll only get maybe 10 extra stratagems at most, so it'll more like be 35-40 stratagems.

And that isn't at all unfair. And I'll tell you why - Imperium.

A Space Marine army gets 27 stratagems. They can easily take a detachment of Imperial Guard for another 25 stratagems. They can also take a detachment of Blood Angels (codex coming in the next month or so), for another (approximately) 15-20 stratagems. So an Imperial army can get 75+ stratagems without breaking a sweat. And the Blood Angel and Vanilla stratagems are likely to overlap in which units can be targetted, as most of them just say "Adeptus Astartes". But there are a couple IG stratagems that could also be used - Preliminary Bombardment and Take Cover would both work for space marine armies.

But yeh, Eldar+Ynnari won't have any more stratagems to use than a mixed Ultramarine+Blood Angel army.

**mmimzie**

I think we'll have to see what chapter approved being. I think it will have several big game changer rules in it. That might damper ynnari and any army trying to use stratagem out side of a main faction.

**the cosmic serpent**

Niiru wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
I suspect in short time that ynnari units will be excluded from using craftworld stratagems. Consider the ramifications - ynnari gets a codex too which also uses the same wordage as the craft-world stratagems. Now an elder detachment with ynnari will have 60 stratgems to choose from...that's just pure shenanigans.

Well for a start, there's only 27 Eldar stratagems (I think), and there's no reason to think Ynnari would get that many as they don't have the additional Craftworld or Unit specific ones. I suspect they'll only get maybe 10 extra stratagems at most, so it'll more like be 35-40 stratagems.

And that isn't at all unfair. And I'll tell you why - Imperium.

A Space Marine army gets 27 stratagems. They can easily take a detachment of Imperial Guard for another 25 stratagems. They can also take a detachment of Blood Angels (codex coming in the next month or so), for another (approximately) 15-20 stratagems. So an Imperial army can get 75+ stratagems without breaking a sweat. And the Blood Angel and Vanilla stratagems are likely to overlap in which units can be targetted, as most of them just say "Adeptus Astartes". But there are a couple IG stratagems that could also be used - Preliminary Bombardment and Take Cover would both work for space marine armies.

But yeh, Eldar+Ynnari won't have any more stratagems to use than a mixed Ultramarine+Blood Angel army.

I checked out your webway portal site looks pretty sweet. I did notice you list spectres as a 10" move, I see it in my digital forgeworld xenos index as 12". Did their movement get reduced somewhere?

**lambsandlions**

The is no point in debating how things may be when the new ynnari codex comes out, we can only talk about how things are right now.

The benefit of having your spears be ynnari over craftworld is that you have two shots at quicken/wotp. If have a large unit of 9 spears, you don't want to miss your quicken, you can use wotp as back up. If you have multiple small units of spears you can double move with two units a turn instead of one. It would not be unreasonable to have two units of spears, one gets wotp'd and goes to attack a lone character while the other group of spears gets quickened and attacks the unit the character was with. The quicken'd unit of spears can then attack twice from the soul burst when the character dies or can soul burst out of combat before the enemy can strike back.

**Azuza001**

Why do people keep saying the avatar is garbage? I think it's pretty compatible for the cost.

250 point kaine gets you 5 str 8 attacks at ap-4, plus a ranged attack. It can't be targeted unless closest target. It has a 3+/5++/5+++ save.

It is overcost I think compared to deamon princes but for Eldar they don't have many super heavy hitters that are charecters like this. It can revive on command points. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge makes him incredibly fast especially if your opponent has read how "slow the avatar is and how it takes to long to get into close combat" . (This happened last time I played with him, managed to go 23" in first turn and charged into and killed a squad of 3 thunderwolf calvary, at which point my opponent freaked and over reacted shooting a ton into him killing him and only him. Warwalkers and wraithlords took care of the rest)

Or is it because of its high cost compared to say a wraithlord that it gets a bad rap? I mean, I don't mind , I will keep using it because I like the idea of it.

**Xenomancers**

lambsandlions wrote:
The is no point in debating how things may be when the new ynnari codex comes out, we can only talk about how things are right now.

The benefit of having your spears be ynnari over craftworld is that you have two shots at quicken/wotp. If have a large unit of 9 spears, you don't want to miss your quicken, you can use wotp as back up. If you have multiple small units of spears you can double move with two units a turn instead of one. It would not be unreasonable to have two units of spears, one gets wotp'd and goes to attack a lone character while the other group of spears gets quickened and attacks the unit the character was with. The quicken'd unit of spears can then attack twice from the soul burst when the character dies or can soul burst out of combat before the enemy can strike back.

That's a good point - however - if you soulburst the spears - you can't soulburst the reapers. So it's a net loss. If you were siamhan and advanced - you could probably charge the front line anyways.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
Why do people keep saying the avatar is garbage? I think it's pretty compatible for the cost.

250 point kaine gets you 5 str 8 attacks at ap-4, plus a ranged attack. It can't be targeted unless closest target. It has a 3+/5++/5+++ save.

It is overcost I think compared to deamon princes but for Eldar they don't have many super heavy hitters that are charecters like this. It can revive on command points. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge makes him incredibly fast especially if your opponent has read how "slow the avatar is and how it takes to long to get into close combat" . (This happened last time I played with him, managed to go 23" in first turn and charged into and killed a squad of 3 thunderwolf calvary, at which point my opponent freaked and over reacted shooting a ton into him killing him and only him. Warwalkers and wraithlords took care of the rest)

Or is it because of its high cost compared to say a wraithlord that it gets a bad rap? I mean, I don't mind , I will keep using it because I like the idea of it.

Hes not bad - hes just part on an unpopular build. Think he works good with a heavy banshee and guardian build. You can also quicken him. Plus his revive ability and phoenix gem is pretty good too.

**DarknessEternal**

Azuza001 wrote:
. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge .

Everything's great when you cheat.

Matchless Agility makes your Advance die count as a 6" instead d6". Also, nothing you mentioned lets the Avatar Advance and be allowed to charge.

**lambsandlions**

Xenomancers wrote:

That's a good point - however - if you soulburst the spears - you can't soulburst the reapers. So it's a net loss. If you were siamhan and advanced - you could probably charge the front line anyways.

But that is the power of soulburst, its versatility. If quicken fails and you need to move those spears you can wotp. If wotp would be better used on your reapers, do that. Be flexible with how you use it. There will be times where your spears getting into combat is more important than shooting twice.

With ynnari spears you quicken your spears into the backfield and killed of a character you can use the soulburst to gtfo.

**Azuza001**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Azuza001 wrote:
. You can use matchless agility on him to give him a 13"+D6" move then another 2d6" charge .

Everything's great when you cheat.

Matchless Agility makes your Advance die count as a 6" instead d6". Also, nothing you mentioned lets the Avatar Advance and be allowed to charge.

Crap, that's my fault, me and my opponent both read it wrong, so that was an unintended cheat. I thought it read add 6" plus d6" not add 6" instead of d6".

Also I don't know why we thought you could charge too.. This is totally my bad. Maybe we got it confused with Quicken where you get another move and then charge. :p

Sorry.

**Niiru**

the cosmic serpent wrote:

I checked out your webway portal site looks pretty sweet. I did notice you list spectres as a 10" move, I see it in my digital forgeworld xenos index as 12". Did their movement get reduced somewhere?

*Checks Codex* Nope, you're right, they're 12"... not sure why I wrote it as 10. I'd done a lot of writing in a short period of time so I probably either misread it or got them mixed up with some other unit. Have corrected it now though, thanks

**DivineVisitor**

Xenomancers wrote:

Hes not bad - hes just part on an unpopular build. Think he works good with a heavy banshee and guardian build. You can also quicken him. Plus his revive ability and phoenix gem is pretty good too.

You can't quicken him. The Avatar is a monster, not Infantry or a Bike.

**Fafnir**

Yeah, the Avatar does not work with any of the important Eldar synergies. He might as well be from a separate faction entirely. Heaven help him if GW decides he counts as a named character too.

If you're looking for a comparison based on cost, just look at Abaddon. 10 points less, and he's a marginally better fighter, more durable against most of the things that would want to target him (half damage), gives 2 CP, and gives way better buffs. Not as mobile, but he can deepstrike. He can also be supported by the abilities within his own faction, unlike the Avatar.

**Korlandril**

I have been thinking about big squads of Shining Spears with buffs in line with the thinking here.

A similar combo I have been thinking of is 3 Vypers with double Shuriken Cannons. You can buff these up the same, protect for 2+ save, Alaitoc and Conceal for -2 to hit outside of 12". If you can keep 3 up then movement is 20" which is great.

Quicken can let these guys move 40" which could be great for objective grabbing.

In summary t5, 2+ save, 20" move, -2 to hit, 18 wounds for 210pts plus two Warlocks for buffs. Downside is 6 Shuriken cannons worth of firepower only.