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Ynnari still have a place in Craftworld armies I feel. Some units, like Fire Dragons, don't gain a huge buff from any Craftworld traits. An Alaitoc Wave Serpent delivering Ynnari Dragons who get to shoot twice if they blow up their first target seems good.

Assuming I haven't got the rules wrong.

Yvraine's ability to provide free, accessible Soul Burst to backline artillery is a top tier ability.

The Yncarne is still a hellishly powerful beatstick with some really tricky and scary mobility options, solid healing ability and 6+++ aura that synergizes with his faction's schtick, and the ability to capitalize hard on SfD up close. And unlike the Avatar of Khaine, the Yncarne can be supported by his own faction's buffs, allowing you to really commit to his potency. Oh, and he's a psyker. So Smite.

The Visarch is alright as a beatstick. There are definitely better characters out there, and he probably won't make his way into most competitive lists, but he's certainly not bad.

All of the Ynnari characters are still very playable and potent, and absolutely not worth writing off yet. There's still plenty to abuse there, it's just not as free as before.

Yvraine using WotP on a back field unit like Reapers is not an easy choice. You get 132pts less Reapers but also lose access to the Alaitoc trait which is very good for them.


I'm liking the idea of a Ynnari Vanguard detatchment of close range elite choices mounted in Alaitoc Serpents. Fire Dragons getting to shoot twice, Banshees fighting twice (with all the Runes of battle buffs) and maybe some wriathguard to benefit from either moving or shooting twice.

But fighting twice can be very hard to pull off, though it depends a bit on rules interpretations.

If you can Soulburst and choose to fight whether or not there's an enemy unit within 1", as seems to be RAW, then it's a fairly powerful ability. You have to be within 4" of an enemy unit to get much out of it, but you can Soulburst in the Shooting Phase and then choose to fight to pile in and attack something. And then you can charge and/or fight again later in the turn.

But if you can only Soulburst and fight if you're within 1" or already charged that turn, then you're only going to get something out of this in your Fight Phase, after already charging. The unit that triggers the Soulburst has to die in the Fight Phase and then you need another target (which you also charged) to be close enough to get to.

Kdash wrote:So, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ynnari won’t disappear completely -rather they will change.

I think, going forward, we won’t see anymore “pure” Ynnari armies, rather we will see small, allied detachments built with the aim of maximising certain soulburst actions.
For example, we’ll likely see Yvarine with 10 Dark Reapers still, but prob then alongside a couple of fast, hard hitting combat units that can happily take advantage of a double move, or fighting twice.

Overall, I think that style of setup is a lot better for everyone, rather than, take dozens of min squads and just continually shoot over and over again with half of them.

Being forced to have Yvraine as your Warlord comes with a heavy tax. It doesn't appear very worth it to have just one ir a few units bennefiting from It.

Fafnir wrote:Yvraine's ability to provide free, accessible Soul Burst to backline artillery is a top tier ability.

The Yncarne is still a hellishly powerful beatstick with some really tricky and scary mobility options, solid healing ability and 6+++ aura that synergizes with his faction's schtick, and the ability to capitalize hard on SfD up close. And unlike the Avatar of Khaine, the Yncarne can be supported by his own faction's buffs, allowing you to really commit to his potency. Oh, and he's a psyker. So Smite.

The Visarch is alright as a beatstick. There are definitely better characters out there, and he probably won't make his way into most competitive lists, but he's certainly not bad.

All of the Ynnari characters are still very playable and potent, and absolutely not worth writing off yet. There's still plenty to abuse there, it's just not as free as before.

Yvraine is very good but taking her comes with a big tax.
The Yncarne is good but very expensive and the summon mechanism is quite clunky. Plus, an Ynnari psyker is usually enough with just 3 powers (one being quite bad)
The Visarch is so poor he brings nothing over a Phoenix Lord.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Yvraine using WotP on a back field unit like Reapers is not an easy choice. You get 132pts less Reapers but also lose access to the Alaitoc trait which is very good for them.

Yeah, you also lose access to interesting warlord traits and relics

Kdash wrote:
So, the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ynnari won’t disappear completely -rather they will change.

I think, going forward, we won’t see anymore “pure” Ynnari armies, rather we will see small, allied detachments built with the aim of maximising certain soulburst actions.
For example, we’ll likely see Yvarine with 10 Dark Reapers still, but prob then alongside a couple of fast, hard hitting combat units that can happily take advantage of a double move, or fighting twice.

Overall, I think that style of setup is a lot better for everyone, rather than, take dozens of min squads and just continually shoot over and over again with half of them.

A Patrol Detachment with Yvraine, squad of Harlies, and a squad of Dark Reapers could still have a place in an army. They still need to have a Craftworld designation, so things like the Forewarned strategem can still be ueed.

Taking a patrol detachment is kind of costing you the CP you would get from a different detachment, which has to be added to the other costs like warlord traits and relics.

Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.

Fred the Farseer wrote:
Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.

Given the major nerfing, they should have undone the mandatory Warlord requirement at least.

I'm mulling over whether or not I would want to include Ynnari in my lists and what the costs of doing so would be. Below is a list I posted earlier in the thread (left) and the Ynnari-ized version (right). Both lists are Alaitoc with the second having a Ynnari Vanguard detatchment.

Farseer........................................................................Farseer
Spiritseer (warlord, reroll psy tests)............................Yvraine
Spiritseer.....................................................................Warlock
Warlock.......................................................................Warlock

5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats.....................................5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats
5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats.....................................5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats
5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats.....................................5x D.Avengers + Ex + 2x Cats

7x F.Dragons................................................................6x F.Dragons (Ynnari)
5x Wraithguard w/ D-scythes.......................................5x Wraithguard w/ D-scythes (Ynnari)
10x H.Banshees..........................................................10x H.Banshees (Ynnari)

W.Serpent + 3x S.Cannon + V.engines........................W.Serpent + 2x S.Cannon
W.Serpent + 3x S.Cannon + V.engines........................W.Serpent + 2x S.Cannon
W.Serpent + 3x S.Cannon + V.engines........................W.Serpent + 2x S.Cannon
W.Serpent + 3x S.Cannon + V.engines........................W.Serpent + 2x S.Cannon

Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism
Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism
Fire Prism.....................................................................Fire Prism

So the main difference is that the Serpents are 15pts cheaper each to pay for Yvraines fancy ass. Also dropped 1 Fire Dragon. The Warlord Trait is no great loss as Yvraine is a better Psyker than the Spiritseer she replaces, and no relics were jumping out at me.

I think the first list is more reliable with the Vectored Engine Serpents, but the cost isn't so great that I'd feel awful taking the second for some SfD fun.

so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

The biggest shift in Ynnari is moving away from MSU. your own stuff dieing will typically happen on your opponents turn, so that is not something you want to build a list around.

A ynnari list that i am looking at myself...

Yncarne
3x 10 shining spears

this is the core. provides shooty and assault threat.

Supported by a craftworld detachment...

warlock skyrunners to buff the spears
fire prisms, hemlocks for support


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

If it is the skyrunner.. i think the laser lance is auto take. Unless of course you are taking one of the relic options. HOwever the saim hann skyrunner with laser lance and relic upgrade is a very good CC unit.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Fred the Farseer wrote:
Ultimately they've managed to make an army redundant. Yes you can take a small detachment, to make use of soul burst on a small scale, but as for a whole 'fluffy' or competitive force, they just aren't viable any more.

Given the major nerfing, they should have undone the mandatory Warlord requirement at least.

I agree with you both. The pendulum has made a full swing from a very powerful, no brainer Ynnari to the irrelevance for Matched play.
I hope they will become a real army in the near future, right now they are little more than fancy count-as material.

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

Pre-codex I was using my converted Autarch with Laser Lance, Fusion Gun and Banshee mask. That still seems great, especially as Saim Hann.


Fusion Gun + Saim Hann Relic Lance + Sniper Warlord Trait could be fun.

The pendulum has made a full swing from a very powerful, no brainer Ynnari to the irrelevance for Matched play.

The pendulum seems to be swinging from one version of hyperbole to another. Before the FAQ Ynnari would only be one part of your army, after the FAQ they are a bit less likely to be part of your army.

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

Considering that you can equip him with the Reaper launcher (as it is an option in the Index), yes, I'd go with Laser lance instead of the Fusion gun. That way you get an HQ that can sit back and shoot for a turn or two, then burst forward and charge if needed.

Which unit do you guys generally prefer, Warp Spiders or Swooping Hawks? I feel like while the Hawks have weight of dice on their side in dealing with infantry and potential for mortal wounds every turn, Warp Spiders have more mobility and durability and their guns can handle higher toughness targets better, plus they look way cooler.

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

It's got to be, right? A Skyrunner already wants to be within 12" to shoot his twin catapult and he gets 4 might-as-well-be-autohitting attacks in CC, and he can't be Overwatched.

The fusion gun, avenger catapult, and deathspinner strike me as the only other real options. I feel like a reaper launcher is not very appealing. You only hit on a 3+ with it so you're only slightly better than a regular Reaper, and you can just get a whole regular Reaper for 5 points more than the launcher. You don't benefit from a lasblaster's range and while it's slightly better against GEQs it's worse against everything else. Obviously you're not taking a power sword or chainsword. The catapult and deathspinner are very similar, with the catapult probably winning out due to its lower price. The fusion gun is very strong but very expensive, and you might not have a great target for it early on.

You can actually make a Skyrunner Autarch pretty beefy. This is the upside of not having any very good warlord traits and relics, I guess. He starts off as W6 3+/4++. You can take a trait to give him +1W and a 6+ FNP. Then you can take the shimmerplume or phoenix gem. With the shimmerplume and that trait it takes on average as many hitting-on-3+ attacks to kill him as if he had 11.2 wounds.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

It's got to be, right? A Skyrunner already wants to be within 12" to shoot his twin catapult and he gets 4 might-as-well-be-autohitting attacks in CC, and he can't be Overwatched.

The fusion gun, avenger catapult, and deathspinner strike me as the only other real options. I feel like a reaper launcher is not very appealing. You only hit on a 3+ with it so you're only slightly better than a regular Reaper, and you can just get a whole regular Reaper for 5 points more than the launcher. You don't benefit from a lasblaster's range and while it's slightly better against GEQs it's worse against everything else. Obviously you're not taking a power sword or chainsword. The catapult and deathspinner are very similar, with the catapult probably winning out due to its lower price. The fusion gun is very strong but very expensive, and you might not have a great target for it early on.

You can actually make a Skyrunner Autarch pretty beefy. This is the upside of not having any very good warlord traits and relics, I guess. He starts off as W6 3+/4++. You can take a trait to give him +1W and a 6+ FNP. Then you can take the shimmerplume or phoenix gem. With the shimmerplume and that trait it takes on average as many hitting-on-3+ attacks to kill him as if he had 11.2 wounds.

On the other hand a normal Dark Reaper can't potentially snipe characters. At times that option could be worth its weight in gold.

I don't rate the sniper trait that highly on a Skyrunner. With only the reaper launcher you expect to force 1 save for 2 damage on T3 or T4. A 60 point Ranger squad expects similar results vs typical characters. You can get in close to use other guns but at that point CC is likely an option and your shooting is less important. A reaper launcher and the sniper trait seem like a reasonable default choice on an Autarch whose job is to babysit a gunline though.

The 12" range on the Fusion Gun, Saim Hann relic lance and twin cats is enough to shoot over screens to get at characters, and they pack a nastier punch that any other sniper option. The Autarch can move 22" and hit on 2s rerolled at 12" with all 4 guns. That is a much better threat range than the 16 +2d6 he would get charging a character (which would only be possible if said character was unscreened anyway).

I don't agree with the overall rhetoric regarding Ynnari being totally lost at this point. I think most of it is going to come down to how you value the WL traits and relics (personally not highly) as well as evaluating what units benefit more from Battle Focus and <Craftworld> versus which units benefit more from SfD. For example I'm a fan of D-Scythe wraithguard and I far prefer being able to shoot twice with that unit over battle focus (irrelevant) and the <Craftworld> trait. I also don't find much if any value in the available CWE troops selection, they either require a large investment in powers and stratagems or otherwise under perform.

I don't necessarily agree with the nerf but I certainly don't agree with the idea that somehow the army is dead. Granted I was running a non typical Ynnari list with less focus on mass soul burst and more focus on concentrated soul bursting but for my list I don't see making much of a change at all sans changing the detachment my Shadow Spectres find themselves in.

It seems like Ynnari have been relegated to a support detachment rather than an army. You take them for an exclusive, focused purpose and then use generalist CWE for the rest.

ryzouken wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Didn't Starcannons get changed from 2 Damage to D3 damage? The codex seems to have put them back to 2 Damage again?

English codex wargear index pg. 111 shows starcannon and twin starcannon at d3 dmg.
Crimson Hunter Exarch entry pg. 107 also shows d3 dmg.
Wave Serpent entry pg 106 shows d3 dmg for twin starcannon
Wraithknight entry pg 109 shows d3 dmg for starcannon

That is every entry pertaining to the starcannon I could find in a brief scan of the English language codex. Where in the codex did you see them being 2 damage?

Ignore me, I'm just stupid when I'm tired. I was reading the "Heavy 2" part not the Damage part.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
The biggest shift in Ynnari is moving away from MSU. your own stuff dieing will typically happen on your opponents turn, so that is not something you want to build a list around.

A ynnari list that i am looking at myself...

Yncarne
3x 10 shining spears

this is the core. provides shooty and assault threat.

Supported by a craftworld detachment...

warlock skyrunners to buff the spears
fire prisms, hemlocks for support


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
so what ideas do you have for an Autarch Skyrunner?

How should he be equipped? Is the Laser Lance a must or .....

If it is the skyrunner.. i think the laser lance is auto take. Unless of course you are taking one of the relic options. HOwever the saim hann skyrunner with laser lance and relic upgrade is a very good CC unit.

Honestly have messed with it ynnari shining spears are meh. With limited laser lance shots and damage split between catapults, lances, and melee its hard to get a great soul burst. Fight phase wise your only gonna get one good fight of you have a big squad of 10, and if you double fight yout going to struggle to have any good targets.

Shooting wise the lances have a 6" range and you just killed something that is right next to you so what are you just gonna shoot your data puts at something else. 9 twin catapults at the end of the day is just 18 storm guardians. So it's nothing super special. With the ynari need I'd rather keep my bikes saim-hann so I can always reroll my charges and make sure they make it into combat when ever I need them too. Failing a charge is the worst.


Some one said something about putting outta snipe autarch with fusion, lance, and on a bike. That sounds cool, but I wonder if saim-hann warlord trait with sain-hann lance biker wouldnt be better. Getting 5 attacks at str8 -4ap 2damage (6 doing 4) vs 1 str8 -4ap d6 damage, 1 str6 -4ap 2damage (6s do 4), 4 str 4 0ap (-3 on 6s) 1damage. Though i guess getting the charge off might be harder, but you can get up to +3" to your "charge" as you can always like into character, and withbgly you can surf off an enemy infantry unit.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
For Alaitoc, what's generally the better troop choice, Rangers or Dire Avengers?

While Rangers probably get more benefit from the Trait, I think that Dire Avengers are a better all-round unit. A 10-man squad shooting at a Doomed target can cause tremendous damage.

My regular list has 1 squad of Rangers and 2 of Avengers. You can take more Rangers if you like but I find their damage output too low to be reliable as a main battle unit. In my last game, they caused no wounds at all although they were guarding an objective which meant the enemy had to devote considerable effort to removing them. The Avengers on the other hand killed a Mawloc and then a Carnifex without taking significant damage.

Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?

That's correct - if you want access to Ynnari and SfD you'll need a Ynnari character as your Warlord.

 Cult of My Boy Blue wrote:
Just to ensure I am understanding the rules change, hoping someone can chime in here, I still have to keep a Ynnari HQ as my Warlord even if I only take a small unit of Ynnari?

Yes. So in order to get the most out of Ynnari, you need 1 of 3 specific HQs, 1 Shooting unit, 1 Melee unit and you must give up access to any CWE Warlord traits or relics to get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn.
At that rate, you may as well just take a second unit of either the Shooting or Melee unit you chose and keep all the CWE goodness.

Ynnari is dead as an army. The only good use for them is Yvraine + 10 Reapers. My biggest beef with this is that particular combo was the main offender of abusing Soulburst.
So instead of discouraging that particular combo with this change, GW decided to neuter whole armies of Ynnari and actually ENCOURAGE the combo that made people complain in the first place.
Top Banana

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 Galef wrote:


Ynnari is dead as an army. The only good use for them is Yvraine + 10 Reapers. My biggest beef with this is that particular combo was the main offender of abusing Soulburst.
So instead of discouraging that particular combo with this change, GW decided to neuter whole armies of Ynnari and actually ENCOURAGE the combo that made people complain in the first place.
Top Banana

-

I really disagree with this statement - Yvraine + D-Scythes is also a solid set up. As is using Soul Burst + Quicken for extra movement netting a triple move in a single turn. I mean I guess it could be the end of 'pure' Ynnari without a CWE detachment to get access to stratagems but using Ynnari as the basis of a portion of an army strategy is still entirely valuable. I've played 2 games since yesterday's FAQ with only one small tweak (moving one unit from the Ynnari detachment to a supreme command) and I've still fared very well.

I totally agree that ynarie is maybe a little dead at the moment, but i think its for the best?

CW needs it's place to shine. Even mroe so DE and Harliquins if they get codexs also need some room to grow and glow. Ynarie where it was would ahve seen those codexs turn into supplements for ynarie for everything outside of casual play.

As i said before ynarie needs to be given a niche carved out of the other three, and limit so they can be powerful and feel like flavors of all three. WIth out also feeling like they do what the others do, but just waaay better.

As before i think the all troop idea is neat. Each troop while not mazing stand out can do thier own thing pretty well. Melee from harliquin troops in quick transports. MObile fire platforms in the form of kabalite warrios in raiders, and really strong fire support from wave serepents, and access to scouts from good ol craftworld. Everything wanting to be in soul burst range also helps them take advantage of that attriubute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One question we still ahve is what rules does the banshee mask for autarch use if you give it to the skyrunner autarch <.<