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 Fafnir wrote:
Which is fine. The problem is that now the return for killing a squad is so much higher, and a list with them can do less to defend them with good counterplay since they'll have less resources available for it.

Absolutely, that's what points adjustments do. But Spectres are an example of how CA should work. They were too cheap, now they are fairly priced. If GW continues to do this for all armies, 40k will be a better game.

NOTE - The following results DON’T take into account Shuriken weapons getting a -3 ap on 6’s to wound. (simply because I cba to spend the time and effort trying to work it out). This also doesn’t not account for things like Guide and Doom.
This also only takes shooting into account, for the sake of a straight up comparison of several units.

So, even with the nerf in points to the Prism Rifle, Shadow Spectres will still, just, beat out Spears on a point per wound comparison for dealing with GEQ and MEQ. (looking at Spectres being 1 point per wound better than Spears – when Spectres don’t take an Exarch). But this is ONLY when using the flamer mode.

If the unit is forced to use the other firing mode, Spears are significantly better than the Spectres.

Hawks, however, are better than both units when dealing with GEQ, but way worse for everything else. The same also goes for Spiders being significantly worse, but, against GEQ as well.

However, it gets really interesting when you start adding looking at Dire Avengers and Guardians.
A 5-man Dire Avenger squad with 6 catapults (exarch with 2), is only slightly, slightly, worse than flamer Spectres for points per wound, but,
A 10-man Guardian squad is significantly better at killing GEQ than everything previously mentioned. Of course, they then suck vs MEQs compared to the previous options, but, for GEQ killing, they seem to be king. (Interestingly, adding in a Shuriken Cannon actually slightly decreases the PPW, but it’s still better than other units)
Both of these infantry unit’s also can then get a further improvement to their PPW if they are Biel-Tan.

So, the “most efficient” option currently open to Craftworlds for dealing with GEQ hordes, is the humble basic Guardian squad, followed by Avengers and then Hawks.

For MEQ “horde” clearing, Wraithguard with D-Scythes are by far the best, followed closely by Dark Reapers using the str 5 shots. These are followed by Flamer Spectres which still have a fair advantage over Spears and then Guardians. However, when you swap to non-flamer Spectres, they are significantly worse than Spears and Guardians.
Unfortunately, War Walkers and Vypers aren’t even close for dealing with hordes – but start to see improvements against mid toughness units when using starcannons.

I can provide some of the numbers I’ve come with, if people want. I’ve not looked at every unit though.

What do you guys think about this tournament results?

http://www.gowarhead.com/2017/11/war-head-triad-iii-coverage.html

It's the most competitive tournament in Finland.

Ignoring the shuriken rule is going to make your results for those weapons pretty useless for MEQ shooting.

Shining Spears shoot better than Shadow Spectres using their flamer mode vs GEQs and MEQs.

Dire Avengers shoot slightly better than Spears and Spectres vs GEQs, and a little worse vs GEQs.

Guardians are the most cost-efficient shooting vs both MEQs and GEQs -- 24 ppw vs MEQs and 12 ppw vs GEQs. Though Spears are better against both if they also charge.

FarseerReborn wrote:
What do you guys think about this tournament results?

Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Ignoring the shuriken rule is going to make your results for those weapons pretty useless for MEQ shooting.

Shining Spears shoot better than Shadow Spectres using their flamer mode vs GEQs and MEQs.

Dire Avengers shoot slightly better than Spears and Spectres vs GEQs, and a little worse vs GEQs.

Guardians are the most cost-efficient shooting vs both MEQs and GEQs -- 24 ppw vs MEQs and 12 ppw vs GEQs. Though Spears are better against both if they also charge.

I fully agree that not including the Shuriken bonus will affect the figures, but, trying to work it all out on averages will take more time than i can give it right now. Plus, not including it, does kind of give a "basic" initial overview on shooting alone. (for example, you'd expect to get 1.48 6's to wound per 10 man Guardian squad - so potentially has a limited impact in actual game).

I left the charging out, again as an example of shooting vs shooting. You're likely not want to get any of the units i listed into combat, apart from the Spears, so adding that in would further skew the figures and wouldn't account for the turns where charging is not possible/fails.




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 Shadenuat wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
What do you guys think about this tournament results?

Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.

Personally, i'm kinda surprised at the amount of Ynnari shown in those lists. With the nerf to Soulburst i wasn't expecting to see so much of it (unless this was played pre nerf).

Lots of Dark Reapers in those lists as well. Something i can't quite force myself to do, just yet.

I am not surprised at all. A detach of 2 units like 10 Reapers and a Shining Spear squad make the best of SB mechanic, while Alaitoc does the rest. You get your double-tap on a shooty unit, while Spears get their Move SB after killing enemy unit in melee. Those are 2 best SB actions (although you could also get a Fight SB with Spears when multi-charging I guess).

Judging by the amount of psykers in lists (sometimes 6+), we are also capable in the smite-spam game.

Kdash wrote:

I fully agree that not including the Shuriken bonus will affect the figures, but, trying to work it all out on averages will take more time than i can give it right now. Plus, not including it, does kind of give a "basic" initial overview on shooting alone. (for example, you'd expect to get 1.48 6's to wound per 10 man Guardian squad - so potentially has a limited impact in actual game).

I left the charging out, again as an example of shooting vs shooting. You're likely not want to get any of the units i listed into combat, apart from the Spears, so adding that in would further skew the figures and wouldn't account for the turns where charging is not possible/fails.

It's actually very easy to include the shuriken rule. Average results for a Guardian shooting a MEQ: 2*2/3*(1/3*1/3+1/6*5/6) = 1/3. Without accounting for rending you get 2/9, 33% lower than the right answer. It's true that 10 Guardians "only" expect 2.22 6s to wound, but of course they only expect 6.66 wounds total. Not including it skews the results significantly in favor of Spectres and Hawks. It's a big problem for Spectres that they're no longer a particularly efficient shooting unit, especially relative to their fragility.

And, sure, a shooting vs shooting comparison is useful. It's just worth noting that CC adds almost nothing for most of these units and a ton for the Spears, so the fact that their shooting alone is about as good as the Spectres' is a big deal.

 Shadenuat wrote:

FarseerReborn wrote:
What do you guys think about this tournament results?

Happy so many eldar made it into the top 10. Not happy everyone decided on 1 small ynnari detach & alaitoc else. Not surprising, but I thought maybe something like a huge amount of Ulthwe guardians or some Alaitoc Fire Prisms would make it into the lists at least just for an experiment. Nice to see someone warmed up to Banshees, they're a great unit.

Woha, the lack of diversity is depressing.

Did we actually get the Dark Hemlock Codex?

Now I see why people ignore my lists in the subforum. I'm using units which appear not to be in their codex

I'm more sad that there is just no balance between Craftworlds whatsoever.

BANALce.

Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.

Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2

Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67

Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.

Surprised that eldar did so well in the tournament but not too surprised at the lists. We have already established that dark reapers, shining spears and hemlocks are our best units, and we see almost every list running those. The ynnari detachments of shining spears and dark reapers is also unsurprising. WotP on dark reapers is devastating and shining spears with quicken means a turn 1 assault. With a large unite of spears it is not too difficult to charge a unit and a character, eat the character and soulburst to destroy the unit. Another winning combination is just wiping out a unit and soul bursting 22" away to safety.

With the range of the dark reapers and the speed and mobility of shining spears and hemlocks, opponents deployment means very little and you can just start plowing through your opponents most powerful units.

With the way detachments are we are going to see a lot of just the best units paired with the best trait for that unit, and that is for all armies not just ours.

xmbk wrote:
Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.

Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2

Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67

Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.

Not sure where you're getting those numbers. At -1 on the Spectres to be hit, Spears take just as much damage as Spectres, except Spectres are one wound per man instead of two, and cost 5 points more per man. Which would put the comparison far in the Spears' favour.

 Fafnir wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Spectres shoot GEQ almost exactly the same as Spears. Spears get the advantage with a charge only. Ignoring the maneuverability and flexibility of Spectres is a mistake (compared to Guardians). Not to mention survivability.

Guard firing HB on Alaitoc Spectres/Spears/Guardians in cover, points killed per shot: 1.2/1.7/1.2

Same, with Lasguns: 0.46/0.57/0.67

Obviously there are other weapons that favor Spears. But these are 2 of the more common profiles shot against these troops. Bolters favor Spectres as well. They are still a solid choice.

Not sure where you're getting those numbers. At -1 on the Spectres to be hit, Spears take just as much damage as Spectres, except Spectres are one wound per man instead of two, and cost 5 points more per man. Which would put the comparison far in the Spears' favour.

His numbers are right, he's just stacking the deck pretty heavily in favor of Spectres. Alatoic Spectres beyond 12" vs BS4+ are hit on 6s, which is what's doing most of the work here. Also the Spectres are in cover and the Spears are assumed not to benefit from it (tbf it's harder for them to claim a cover save).

FarseerReborn wrote:
What do you guys think about this tournament results?

http://www.gowarhead.com/2017/11/war-head-triad-iii-coverage.html

It's the most competitive tournament in Finland.

Was this with the Ynnari/SFD updated rules in play?

Right, though Guard are certainly a popular opponent. And it's certainly true that Spectres are in cover most of the time, esp when they are a prime target. Let's try Girlyman HB's:

Spectres v Spears, in cover: 4.1/3.9 points per shot. So, even a 3+ rerollable is only slightly in favor of Spears. And that's assuming you don't take Exarchs, which would push the numbers slightly back into the Spectres favor.

Again, I'm not saying that Spectres are better than Spears. I am saying the they are much tougher than some people are making out. They are still clearly the 4th best non-character choice after Reapers, Hemlocks, and Spears. The first 2 are way out in front, Spears and Spectres are much closer.

Note that Guilliman doesn't actually change anything about the ratio because of the way re-rolls work now -- I think you were right the first time that the Spectres do better against BS3+ heavy bolters, though it's very close.

But yes, I get that you're saying Spectres are tough. I'm saying that it's not very impressive that in nearly the best case scenarios for them (facing BS4+ at >12", in cover, vs AP0 or AP-1) they turn out to be only a little more durable than a unit which is faster and hits much harder. Meanwhile lots of armies have units which counter Spectres pretty hard.

So I don't really see why you'd take them now. Just take Spears. And then there are lots of more appealing choices like Guardians or Rangers to fill Troops slots, and probably even Hawks for a bit of shooting and objective capping. Scytheguard and probably Fire Dragons are also still perfectly good.

I'll agree that they're better than Scorpions, Banshees, Dire Avengers, Wraithblades, Vypers, Spiders, and Windriders, but these things are not very good. Even after the codex, lots of Eldar units are just not very appealing and don't measure up to comparable units in other armies. Being in the top 10 units is just not a big deal. This isn't the Guard codex where you can easily find 10 things that you'd be happy putting in a list.

Rerollable does matter, because they are getting hit on different numbers. As for the best case, can't agree. Light multi-wound weapons clearly favor them even more, just as flamers favor Spears more. Spectres are not getting targeted by cannons too often.

Yes, if I were going to a hardcore tournament, it would be all Hemlocks, Reapers, and characters, with a few Spears and Rangers. But you should try fielding some Spectres, I think you'll find them more useful than you think.

xmbk wrote:
Rerollable does matter, because they are getting hit on different numbers. As for the best case, can't agree. Light multi-wound weapons clearly favor them even more, just as flamers favor Spears more. Spectres are not getting targeted by cannons too often.

Yes, if I were going to a hardcore tournament, it would be all Hemlocks, Reapers, and characters, with a few Spears and Rangers. But you should try fielding some Spectres, I think you'll find them more useful than you think.

But re-rolls are before modifiers, so either way he only re-rolls the 1s and 2s.

Right, forgot about that. Even more awesome sauce. I tabled a Girly list in a tournament last week without even remembering that. Alaitoc Hemlocks with a big Reaper unit is Insta-competitive.

xmbk wrote:
Alaitoc Hemlocks with a big Reaper unit is Insta-competitive.

Which is probably why I am choosing one or the other and never both. Considering I don't own Reapers and they don't have plastics yet, guess which choice I never field?

Of course, that's doesn't stop me from taking Reaper launchers on my Autarchs

Are there any good ways to capitalize off of the hemlocks leadership debuff?

Kill things, make them take leadership checks.

It can be 2 extra wounds if you're trying to take out an enemy character with Mind War and snipers. Not super effective, but basically free. Nightspear and a Reaper Autarch with sniper abilities is a nice combo for removing support chars.

 Fafnir wrote:
Kill things, make them take leadership checks.

Basically; -2 Ld makes things that are used to being basically immune to morale at least somewhat vulnerable, and things that were already a little vulnerable start running away in droves. Just remember that there's an optimal number of casualties to inflict on squads as a function of size and Ld, depending on what you're after, and then spread your fire out. Killing 6 members of a 10-man Ld 7 Infantry squad gives you pretty good odds of seeing the rest all run away. Even for a 5-man Marine squad with ATSKNF, the lone survivor has a 44% chance of running away when near a Hemlock.

This doesn't work on Tyranids or Orks, but Hemlocks end up being an important part of Eldar anti-horde tactics, since there's not really any Eldar unit which is actually good at killing them directly. Hemlocks are actually pretty significant force multipliers. If you're up against a bunch of Ld 7 10-man units, a Hemlock being close by is worth an extra ~1.17 kills in each squad which you inflict 6 casualties on. It's actually giving you even more of a benefit when you kill fewer guys across more squads (half an extra casualty for killing just 1 guy in the squad) but you should be aiming to maximize the total number that flee, not just the additional runners due to the Hemlock.

The main thing Hemlocks do to hordes is completely block movement. Gives you an extra turn or two to shoot or grab objectives.

Cast Embolden on the Farseer for +2 and use mind war....that combined with the hemlock's -2 wll give you a 3 to 5 point advantage to the roll to kill the character.

If he survives have the autarch try to finish him off with the reaper launcher.

If you can get rid of you opponent re-rolls then those Alaitoc army trait bonus becomes that much sweeter

How good are farseers now? How does he compare to eldrad? How about compared to two spirit seers? I imagine executioner is an auto pick as it seems like a better smite, Guide is better for big units while doom is better if you have msu.

In your average list without something special to buff, protect and without Ld shenanigans, Doom + Executioner would be my go-to pick.

I rate farseers, haven't tried Eldrad yet due to the craftworld keyword jazz. But he looks good.

Powers to take depend on your target audience. Guide is ok but greatly reduced this edition, due to the way modifiers work after rerolls.

Doom is almost an auto pick by comparision. Theres very few situations where it is less useful during a game than guide. Executioner is solid as you say, but dont discount good old smite which come for free if you need it.

Fortune is the other solid power. Not many people put their faith in it but I find it incredibly beneficial especially mid game, when you know what the opponent is likely to try and kill next turn.

My usual pick is a farseer with doom and fortune. If I ever took a second one it would be executioner and probably doom again, just in case.