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Mr. Funktastic wrote:
A Razorback is a good comparison, not to mention that it has comparable or superior firepower, better durability (+2 wounds, -1 to hit from Alaitoc, and 6+++ from spirit stones/Ulthwe), and better mobility. I think in Eldar's case you wouldn't use them as SM use Razorbacks (being solely cost efficient fire support in a parking lot) but more along the lines of a turn 1 safety net for your Aspect Warriors and decent fire support and backline objective camper if you don't have the points for another Wave Serpent as well as being a Heavy Support slot to fill in a Spearhead if you don't want to shell out the points for two Fire Prisms (because you would never take just one Prism, always in pairs for Linked Fire). Definitely a jack of all trades option, but in the right situation I don't think it's a bad thing.

That's a good point, while a Wave Serpent is generally better it essentially costs points which do not contribute to the number of CP you generate. You can't use dedicated transports to fill out detachments.

Imagine if Falcons also got the 'Pulse Laser discharge' rule, say: the ability to fire the pulse laser twice when moving < half movement speed. Would that be too much? Would they start to replace the more common ranged firepower units we see on the table currently such as Prisms, Crimson Hunters, or Dark Reapers even??

Yeah I think the filling out detachments part gets over looked but I understand that's a niche situation and people generally fill that slot with Dark Reapers/Fire Prisms/etc anyway. I don't think giving the Falcon that rule would be OP. The Pulse Laser + BL option has comparable and more reliable damage than a twin BL Serpent, if anything giving it that ability would make you see them more if anything. Missed opportunity.

I've run mass grav tanks with 3 Fire Prisms and 3 Falcons in 7th just because I own those models and a squadron of 3 could deepstrike.

I have a list of 3 of each which I'll be trying out soon, with the aim being having so many multi wound models to overwhelm the multi damage weapons. Cloudstriking the 3 Falcons to provide a big threat in your opponents face and also unloading a load of Dire Avengers to score objectives. You can achieve this with Serpents but you get different fire power compared to Serpents with the pulse laser. Also I think with Serpents you want the tri-cannon loadout with Vectored Engines always. As others have mentioned you also get CP from having heavy support choices.

I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.


In general are people using the cloudstrike strat at all? It is way more efficient CP wise to deepstrike a similar amount of units. Three Wave Serpents with just guardian defenders and psykers in would be similar to a guardian bomb but you can bring your support characters with you and provide Wave Serpents as another threat for your opponent to fire at instead of your guardians. Though you can't disembark the turn you come in on right?

 Korlandril wrote:
I've run mass grav tanks with 3 Fire Prisms and 3 Falcons in 7th just because I own those models and a squadron of 3 could deepstrike.

I have a list of 3 of each which I'll be trying out soon, with the aim being having so many multi wound models to overwhelm the multi damage weapons. Cloudstriking the 3 Falcons to provide a big threat in your opponents face and also unloading a load of Dire Avengers to score objectives. You can achieve this with Serpents but you get different fire power compared to Serpents with the pulse laser. Also I think with Serpents you want the tri-cannon loadout with Vectored Engines always. As others have mentioned you also get CP from having heavy support choices.

I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.


In general are people using the cloudstrike strat at all? It is way more efficient CP wise to deepstrike a similar amount of units. Three Wave Serpents with just guardian defenders and psykers in would be similar to a guardian bomb but you can bring your support characters with you and provide Wave Serpents as another threat for your opponent to fire at instead of your guardians. Though you can't disembark the turn you come in on right?

Surely you can only cloudstrike one vehicle?

There is no limit to using stratagems that are activated before the game begins.

I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.

Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.

Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?

In a way you are correct but then if you deploy your grav tanks on one flank your opponent can deploy to counter this and will know where feasibly these can get in one turn of movement. With a cloudstrike you can deepstrike where your opponent is weakest or where an objective is. It also forces your opponent to spread his forces to protect from deepstrike which could be beneficial to you.

 Korlandril wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:
I have found as far as positioning, that Eldar vehicles move fast enough to get where they’re going turn 1 anyway without spending a command point.

Also it seems to me that Eldar grav tanks particularly are durable enough to weather a turn of fire when you’re going second (maybe with a little help from lightning reflexes for one of them). For transports, since you have to take a turn of fire after cloudstrike before the passengers can disembark anyway, why not just deploy?

In a way you are correct but then if you deploy your grav tanks on one flank your opponent can deploy to counter this and will know where feasibly these can get in one turn of movement. With a cloudstrike you can deepstrike where your opponent is weakest or where an objective is. It also forces your opponent to spread his forces to protect from deepstrike which could be beneficial to you.

Another thing to note is that, from a "disembark" point of view, there is no difference between starting on the table in Wave Serpents and deep striking in Wave Serpents. This is because if you want to move the contents up the table, you'll be disembarking 2nd turn anyway, as it's before moving now, rather than after.

As for the Falcon - I personally think you'd seem more of them again if you could take them in "squadrons" again. If you could take 3 and deep strike them all for 1 cp, while containing 5 fire dragons/banshee's apiece and a psyker of some kind, you'd put out some serious hurt turn 1 and 2.

As it stands, spending 1CP to deep strike 1 WS or Falcon or 3CP for 2, just doesn't seem anywhere near, worth it.

With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back.

 Korlandril wrote:


I also have another list where a single Falcon will be acting as a command vehicle in that it will deploy with Farseer and Spiritseers in it.

This is the best use for a Falcon I have seen mentioned. My lists always have foot slogging psykers in because I usually need at least 4 HQs to fill detachments. There have been a few times I've written lists without any Serpents and then at the end realized I've got nowhere to hide my HQs. They only need to hide for the first turn if you're going second, and can then jump out and be screened by deep strikers while the Falcon acts as a poor mans Prism.

Still though, I doubt I'll use one. Maybe 2 prisms and a Falcon with Psykers in to fill out a spearhead.

Edit: A falcon with a Bright Lance does do more damage to the average vehicle stat line than a Prism at least.

With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back

I almost always have 8. More than that requires 6 troops which I normally find to be too much of a tax.

That's similar to how I would use a Falcon if I were to include one, put a 5 man squad of Dark Reapers and a Farseer in it to protect them turn 1 while having my second Dark Reaper squad ready to webway strike. All while providing fire support and filling in the Spearhead. Then I'd equip the Falcon with a BL for AT work or a Starcannon to help take out Terminators or TEQs that try and deep strike into my back line.

 Sarigar wrote:
With the Codex having been out a couple months now, how many Command Points do you generally start with? I tend to start with 9 or 10 in a 2000 point army, which is up from my Index armies a few months back.

My current list is running 10 - 2 Battalion (one Ynnari) and an Air Wing

Most of my lists get only 7-8 CPs, but I don't have as many Troop units anymore and can barely do a single Battalion.

Side Rant: This is because I've used Bikes as my Troops since 4th edition and those are no longer Troops. Which is fine overall, except it screws me out of CPs and Objective Secured options. I will not be buying more Troops than I currently have, so I have to live with a limited amount of CPs.

Why won't you buy new troops?

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Why won't you buy new troops?

Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.

 DanielFM wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Why won't you buy new troops?

Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.

Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:


Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.

They put the Fine in Finecast?

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
Why won't you buy new troops?

Maybe he doesn't like them. Rangers are Finecast (poor material, expensive), Guardians have horribly dated models and Dire Avengers aren't bad models but they aren't the greatest unit out there.

Fair enough, I'm not being accusatory, I was just curious as to why. Also regarding Finecast rangers - I have 15 and they were fine as far as quality is concerned.

DanielFM pretty much nailed it. While I like the aesthetics of all the Troops, I can't stand Finecast and DAs are ridiculously expensive (I remember when they were a box of 10 for $35, now they are more expensive for only 5). I might get Guardians eventually, but I really don't like "expendable" Eldar, which I really see Guardians as being. Currently I am using Kabalite with Woodelf cloaks as Rangers, but I can only afford 3 units for a Battalion.

I've also been playing Eldar for nearly a decade and have plenty of bikes that have ALWAYS been my core list, not just for 6th & 7th bandwagoning. I shouldn't have to shelve those models and buy new ones just because the meta and certain role changes say so. But that decision comes at the cost of not having as many CPs, which I think is the main reason Eldar have such good Stratagems: because they can't get as many CPs to use them all.

-

Fair point - I make sure to be able to run 10 CP just to have strong access to our stratagems which I agree are army defining. Even better when paired with parts of the Ynnari army.

I always have 8CP, I can't justify bringing 6 troops. I usually bring 2 units of rangers and a 20 man squad of guardians in the webway.

I really don't see the 10 command point thing. For me Command points only really mattero n the first turn when you can use them on full size squads, and full strength vehicles. Having 10 is pretty over kill and my opinion unless you're using 2 webway strikes and ahve to throw away a battalion to do (but in that case your most likely droping guardian blobs who bring thier own command points).

I think you should really only bring enough command points for what you will most likely use for your first time. Bending your list to do anything else is kind of bad.

For instance my force currently is
Farseer
4x warlocks
2x full shining spear squads
2x Min Guardian squds
1x Ranger squad
2x waveseprent Star/vectored engines
2xswooping hawks.
Hemlock
Hunter exarch

I get 8CP and i plan to spend all of them by the end of the first battle round
1 Webway strike
2 Lightning Fast reactions
1 Supreme disdain
1 Seer council
1 Warriors of racing winds
2 Forwarned

Some of these don't end up geting used every game depending on situations. When i use CP in later turns it feel terrible. Lighting fast ractions on a flier when it's got 2 wounds left, or a squad of spears with 1 or 2 bikes left realyl doesnt'; have all that much value. Plus after the first turn both armies are like 500-600pt armies anyway, and having 2-4 more CP is just so meaningless on such small squads.

Eldar to me is all about those synergies, and even the stratagems are about the synergies. ALl the eldar units individually are kind of week, but they rely vey heavy on powerful buffs that allow them to get things done. If you aren't geting everything you need done on turn one, a skilled opponnent will pick appart all your synergies and leave you with just a bad army.

I definitely think that's missing the impact of later turn re-rolls of D6s (for example on a bright lance or making sure quicken goes off). I generally spend in my list (listed in spoiler below) 1-3 CP for Webway (Shining Spears and possibly reapers depending my match up), 1 for the Alatioc relic on my spirit seer, and possibly 1 to make sure quicken goes off. After that I've got between 5-7 CP left for a lighting fast when necessary (I'll use it every day on a hemlock to keep it alive because even at 2 wounds its fully lethal) or maybe a forewarning.



Ultimately I don't feel comfortable if I don't have at least 4 CP left after the first round to ensure against crucial moral loses, to re-roll a bright lance damage at a clutch moment, or to re-roll an important psychic power.

 Galef wrote:

DanielFM pretty much nailed it. While I like the aesthetics of all the Troops, I can't stand Finecast and DAs are ridiculously expensive (I remember when they were a box of 10 for $35, now they are more expensive for only 5). I might get Guardians eventually, but I really don't like "expendable" Eldar, which I really see Guardians as being. Currently I am using Kabalite with Woodelf cloaks as Rangers, but I can only afford 3 units for a Battalion.

Slightly off topic, but would you mind posting photos of those conversions, either on your personal blog or in the gallery here?

I just noticed that Illic scrapped the d letter before damage of his rifle to keep with time. It means Voidbringer just one-shots some characters - and can put 3 damage on any monster reliably unless it has invul. But I take it nobody tries to put guy into their lists since they'd rather have Farseer or Autarch.

 Shadenuat wrote:
There is no limit to using stratagems that are activated before the game begins.

I never knew this! Thanks!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing came to mind after my last battle. It was the first game that I used all my CPs by turn 2.

my opponent knew that I could not reroll and that I would never be able to interrupt his Fight phase.

If I had the ability to use 2 cp I could have changed the course of the battle in my favor. As it was I almost tabled him despite only winning 18 to 17 VPs

 admironheart wrote:

 Shadenuat wrote:
There is no limit to using stratagems that are activated before the game begins.

I never knew this! Thanks!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing came to mind after my last battle. It was the first game that I used all my CPs by turn 2.

my opponent knew that I could not reroll and that I would never be able to interrupt his Fight phase.

If I had the ability to use 2 cp I could have changed the course of the battle in my favor. As it was I almost tabled him despite only winning 18 to 17 VPs

You could have but to get those 2 cp you'd need to bring 3 more units that are elss effective, and could have been in a worse situation to beggin with. Additionally those 3 units you need to bring all sort of suck in combat, excempt for maaaaaybe storm guardians. Thats not also to say that all the CP you used by turn 2 oculd have been spent on scratching your butt. That is to say that how do we know that was the ebst use of said CP.

Again it could have been that while it was nice that you couldn't interrupt him, maybe he could have still achieved his victory and avoided your chance to interrupt entirely.

CP pasted turn 1 are back up and just incase plans, but if they come at the expensive of actually having a plan in the first place i don't think they are worth it. That is to say if you need to take the engines off your boat to put in escape boats... then what's the point.

With that in mind and re thinking the Falcon...has anyone ran a Brigade yet?

It is my plan to make that my next list.

Thinking:

Saim-Hann Patrol (or supreme commandor Auxillary detachment)

Autarch Skyrunner


Alaitoc Brigade
Farseer
Conclave
Warlock
2 large Guardian blobs
15 storm guardians
10 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 rangers
Falcon
Falcon
3 man Reapers with shuriken cannon
Wave Serpent
large swooping hawk squad
3 Vypers or large shining spear unit

1 Vyper
large banshee squad
5 fire dragons
some other elite unit (bonesinger?)

20 units.

Put 2 units in each falcon. and 3 in the wave serpent.
Now your at 13 units to field.

Start 3 or so units in Reserves.

Alternately start 3 tanks with cloudstrike.

any ideas?

 admironheart wrote:
With that in mind and re thinking the Falcon...has anyone ran a Brigade yet?

It is my plan to make that my next list.

Thinking:

Saim-Hann Patrol (or supreme commandor Auxillary detachment)

Autarch Skyrunner


Alaitoc Brigade
Farseer
Conclave
Warlock
2 large Guardian blobs
15 storm guardians
10 Dire Avengers
5 Dire Avengers
5 rangers
Falcon
Falcon
3 man Reapers with shuriken cannon
Wave Serpent
large swooping hawk squad
3 Vypers or large shining spear unit

1 Vyper
large banshee squad
5 fire dragons
some other elite unit (bonesinger?)

20 units.

Put 2 units in each falcon. and 3 in the wave serpent.
Now your at 13 units to field.

Start 3 or so units in Reserves.

Alternately start 3 tanks with cloudstrike.

any ideas?

I dont like cloud strikign the falcons if you are gonna put stuff inside. They won't be shooting till turn 2, as they can't get out. The deployment thing can be fixed by using the phantasm stratagem that elts you redoply 3 units which is about the same as cloud strike, but you can still disembark and cost fewer CP..ALso you can't webway and cloud strike.

Why the 10 man dire avenger squads??? I think if your gonna get a bigger dire avenger squad jsut get 1- guardians and use the extra points else where. Even more so if you are bring transports who will help them get into range. Are the storm guardians walking??? Are all the guardians just walking??? They are so dead x.x Guardians durability wise are guadians men that cost twice as much. They really want to webway or wave serpent ride.

I guess you dont have tempest launcher exarchs???

I think you're anti tank is very... precarious?? Its pretty much all in the fire dragons. If your opponent brings a tank heavy list. He's gonna focus fire down your fire dragons pretty hard. Even if they web way in tyhey'll only take out one MAAAybe two tanks, and then they'll be very vulnerable to fire from thier. After they are removed the tank heavy player will have nothing to really fear from your army. The reapers could help but jsut 1 3 man squads with the exarch having a shurikan cannon??? doesn't seem like that and the falcons would realisticly threaten too many tanks (each falcon doing maybe 3 wounds a turn to tanks, and the reapers doing maybe 2 or 3??) .

I think your listen currently could go a few ways, but i'd lean heavier on mech. Just bring 1- man guardian squads with bright lances. Then the fire drangons and reapers. That way you have more ctredible anti tank options. Still bringing the wave serpents and falcons of course. I think if you wanna bring any kind of armor you want 4+ pieces or nothing. As at 4 or more you really start to tax your opponents anti armor weapons, and they will really struggle to take out your vehicles in a timely manner.

Yea I agree about the 4 tanks. I normally go heavy on reapers, fire dragons and wraithguard combined with 1, 2,3 or even 4 Wave Serpents.

I think that I will use WebWay over Cloud Strike but the potential to put a full unit of Vypers in safety is nice for 1 cp.

Ive been getting away from reapers and trying new units....like shining spears and hawks.

The point of the 10 Dire Avengers is a one two punch for enemy deep strike chargers like Genestealers or Komandoes.

So I keep the better protected Avengers in a long line but close enough that no model can fit between them. I then place the 15 storm guardians touching the Avengers in a line behind them. The opponent can charge the storm guardians but likely wont be able to actually get into base to base.

The Avengers use the 5+ Overwatch to kill 3 or 4 models normally. That is usually just enough that the Avengers wont die. The opponent usually makes the mistake of consolidating into the Storm Guardians. I get a round of free attacks doing a few minor kills.
Next turn I cast Enhance and use Supreme Disdain ....With either Jinx or Doom I have yet to not wipe out a unit with buffed Storm Guardians (plus they can fire their pistols in the shooting phase)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess playing a lot of Tyranid and ork lists has me focusing on hordes.

The last tank list had 3 leman russes and 2 basilisks with drop troops and again a horde of guard. Tanks are always easy for me....its to waves of grunts that hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't recommend WebWay for Fire Dragons. They will be outside their sweet melta range.

Much better to warp in WraithGuard. then use fire and fade into a fast moving wave serpent with vectored engines for some nice protection and a pretty sure 2nd round of shooting IF they take down the transport.

 admironheart wrote:
Yea I agree about the 4 tanks. I normally go heavy on reapers, fire dragons and wraithguard combined with 1, 2,3 or even 4 Wave Serpents.

I think that I will use WebWay over Cloud Strike but the potential to put a full unit of Vypers in safety is nice for 1 cp.

Ive been getting away from reapers and trying new units....like shining spears and hawks.

The point of the 10 Dire Avengers is a one two punch for enemy deep strike chargers like Genestealers or Komandoes.

So I keep the better protected Avengers in a long line but close enough that no model can fit between them. I then place the 15 storm guardians touching the Avengers in a line behind them. The opponent can charge the storm guardians but likely wont be able to actually get into base to base.

The Avengers use the 5+ Overwatch to kill 3 or 4 models normally. That is usually just enough that the Avengers wont die. The opponent usually makes the mistake of consolidating into the Storm Guardians. I get a round of free attacks doing a few minor kills.
Next turn I cast Enhance and use Supreme Disdain ....With either Jinx or Doom I have yet to not wipe out a unit with buffed Storm Guardians (plus they can fire their pistols in the shooting phase)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess playing a lot of Tyranid and ork lists has me focusing on hordes.

The last tank list had 3 leman russes and 2 basilisks with drop troops and again a horde of guard. Tanks are always easy for me....its to waves of grunts that hurt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also don't recommend WebWay for Fire Dragons. They will be outside their sweet melta range.

Much better to warp in WraithGuard. then use fire and fade into a fast moving wave serpent with vectored engines for some nice protection and a pretty sure 2nd round of shooting IF they take down the transport.

you have a warlock conlave with no better target for quicken. why not just webway and quiken the dragons.Then you can fire and fade them into a transport.

your dire avenger strat seems neat, but you could do about the same with the storm guardians in a wave serpent.