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ronjamin1022 wrote:
are there any “safe” units

Nope. If they listen to the internet, there will be nothing left.

Guardians, War Walkers and Wraithguard are not likely to get nerfed imo, if you like any of those: go ahead. HQs should be pretty safe too, maybe a Spiritseer and a Farseer. Actually the only problems are with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers with strength from Death. I seriously hope they nerf Ynnari instead of all Eldar lists...

ronjamin1022 wrote:
I know the March FAQ is due any day now and that it. Could change everything, but are there any “safe” units that I could buy to build a 500 point starter list? I’m switching from Space Marines, which I picked because it was “beginner friendly” rather than what I really wanted to play.

ronjamin, here are some good, safe, units that i think form a solid starting point @ 500 points: start with a Farseer and a Warlock for HQ; for Troops, 10 Dire Avengers and 10 Rangers; round it off with a Falcon (or a Wave Serpent if you prefer the larger transport over the larger gun).

This provides enough models to form a Batallion Detachment and comes in just a little over 500pts.

I suggest these units because they have remained consistantly good across editions. No edition has ever had, or will ever have, bad Farseers and Warlocks and they are always solid HQ choices. Dire Avengers and Rangers are versatile troops that can always prove themselves useful. With respect to the vehicles i mentioned, even though they're not hot right now i would still suggest the Falcon first, partly because of it's versatility (again), but mainly because it is the foundational eldar tank and, like the other suggestions, it is basically edition-proof (i also think the 2 shot / 3 damage Pulse laser is better than it's given credit for). But Wave Serpents are also always good performers.

Other more-or-less safe meta/edition-proof units are Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, and Vypers.

Despite playing Eldar since 2nd I have never fielded Guardians, so i probably shouldn't comment on them.

wretched sylph wrote:

ronjamin1022 wrote:
I know the March FAQ is due any day now and that it. Could change everything, but are there any “safe” units that I could buy to build a 500 point starter list? I’m switching from Space Marines, which I picked because it was “beginner friendly” rather than what I really wanted to play.

ronjamin, here are some good, safe, units that i think form a solid starting point @ 500 points: start with a Farseer and a Warlock for HQ; for Troops, 10 Dire Avengers and 10 Rangers; round it off with a Falcon (or a Wave Serpent if you prefer the larger transport over the larger gun).

This provides enough models to form a Batallion Detachment and comes in just a little over 500pts.

I suggest these units because they have remained consistantly good across editions. No edition has ever had, or will ever have, bad Farseers and Warlocks and they are always solid HQ choices. Dire Avengers and Rangers are versatile troops that can always prove themselves useful. With respect to the vehicles i mentioned, even though they're not hot right now i would still suggest the Falcon first, partly because of it's versatility (again), but mainly because it is the foundational eldar tank and, like the other suggestions, it is basically edition-proof (i also think the 2 shot / 3 damage Pulse laser is better than it's given credit for). But Wave Serpents are also always good performers.

Other more-or-less safe meta/edition-proof units are Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, and Vypers.

Despite playing Eldar since 2nd I have never fielded Guardians, so i probably shouldn't comment on them.

Thanks for the comprehensive feedback. I've definitely got my eye on a Farseer (might be able to get one used cheap) and I've considered Guardians/Rangers for my troop choices, I just wish they had plastic Rangers available. My idea for a 500 points originally involved using a 20-man Guardian blob and the webway, but I'll definitely consider Dire Avengers instead. From what I understand, they have better range than their Guardian counterparts, but are a bit more expensive.

I think I'm going to purchase a Farseer to start, along with a box of Dire Avengers or Guardians to assemble, just to give me something to get my paint scheme figured out with. I happen to have 3 old school metal Dark Reapers sitting around, but I want to wait for the FAQ before I commit to them or Shining Spears in my army (though I think they'd be in an army larger than 500 points).

I would strongly support the "A box" mentality. Doing one box of anything, at least at first, is usually a great way to start with CWE.

Once you know Guardians/DAs, then sure, get more of the one you like. But 10 Guardians and 5 DAs (and 5 Rangers) would be a good start.

Reapers or Spears would suck the life out of a 500pt game.

The other useful piece of advice is to get when you want to play. If you KNOW you are going to play X, because you just love the models, the ideas and the fundamental rules, buy one of those and start painting it. Even if the nerfhammer hits it, you already know you like the models. For example, I'm currently starting a dark eldar army. And I really like scourges. The models are just lovely and painting those big wings is great. So I bought a box, knowing I'll enjoy them even if they get nerfed in the new codex.

Frowny wrote:
The other useful piece of advice is to get when you want to play. If you KNOW you are going to play X, because you just love the models, the ideas and the fundamental rules, buy one of those and start painting it. Even if the nerfhammer hits it, you already know you like the models. For example, I'm currently starting a dark eldar army. And I really like scourges. The models are just lovely and painting those big wings is great. So I bought a box, knowing I'll enjoy them even if they get nerfed in the new codex.

This was the mistake I made a couple months ago with my first army. Picked Space Marines because “they’re beginner friendly” and not because I liked the army (though I think I tried to convince myself I did). After playing about a dozen or games with them at the 500-1000 point level and watching other armies’ models and play styles, I realized that I should’ve gone with Eldar to begin with. I like the diversity of their models, their synergy and psychic powers in general, and their lore is pretty interesting. Plus I’ve always played elven characters in RPGs.

I bought a Farseer that I’m going to paint/assemble (going for an orange and black paint scheme) while I wait for my Space Marines to sell on eBay, the use those funds to slowly build a 500 point list I like.

As an Ork player who's been playing a lot of Dawn of War 1/3 and been looking to get into a new army - outside of Dark Reapers, how are Eldar doing?

I've been looking over Battlescribe; and a lot of their units appear to be very expensive guardsman [which are underpriced in general compared to ANY army], and need luck (eg; rolling 6+'s) to get a lot of their abilities or effects off.

Some of the units I liked and was looking at; Howling Banshees, Striking Scorpions, Swooping Hawks, Shadow Spectres, Warp Spiders, Rangers.

fe40k wrote:
As an Ork player who's been playing a lot of Dawn of War 1/3 and been looking to get into a new army - outside of Dark Reapers, how are Eldar doing?

I've been looking over Battlescribe; and a lot of their units appear to be very expensive guardsman

Congratulations on your astuteness.

Shining Spears and Wave Serpents are also pretty good. After that, the codex is entirely poop.

Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:

Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.

Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.

Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.

Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.

Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.

Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).

quentra wrote:
Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:

Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.

Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.

Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.

Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.

Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.

Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).

Great analysis other than Warlock's conceal cannot affect our flyers. Only infantry and jetbikes.

Need wise 1-5pt per model for spears and repeats wouldn't be too bad?? They'd still be pretty darn good. Wave serpents are also a tiny bit too steonf?? Decent damage out put and really hard to kill compared to other similarly priced models. (A rung down from plague burst crawlers.

The real required need is to ynnari. Honestly ynnari should lose all faction keywords outside of ynnari. I think all eldar models can't really be balanced if they arent also just strictly more powerful if they run ynnari.

As for models that could be buffed banshee and scorps couls use a drop of love. Both are decent now, but really lack the ability to fight right away.

Guardians/warlocksf/farseers/autarch are all in a great place and don't need much change.

Absolutely agree about the scorpions. Also in a perfect world I would like the Biel-Tan Craftworld trait to be reworked into something like this: all aspect warriors reroll ones to hit. It would be fluffy as for now the main benefactor of the current trait are guardians which the biel tan Craftworld doesn't really use.

Banshees are usable, but severely underpowered. Their primary value is to be inexpensive combined chargers so your better units can get in more safely.

Scorpions are absolutely worthless trash, however. Their only value is making me seriously question whether the Avatar is the worst unit in the codex.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

quentra wrote:
Having actually played Eldar, both semi-competitve variants and entirely fluffy lists, I've made the following observations:

Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

Psychic is god. I cannot stress enough how essential debuffs and buffs are. Your dudes are not very tough, and you lack the marine aura re-roll and your damage output barring a few special units is average. But once you get crap like Doom, Guide, Jinx, etc., rolling, your stuff becomes a huge threat. I've taken out Blackstars and Thunderhawks with fricken Shuriken Windriders thanks to buffs.

Speaking of, beyond the obviouly good units, (Spears, Reapers), Hemlock Wraithfighters are a core aspect of the list. Flyers in general, because the pretty-much-always on -2 to hit for flyers as Alaitoc (-1 Hard to Hit, -1 trait) is amazing. Your flyers go down easy, but actually killing them is tough. Throw in a warlock's Conceal and your flyers are never dying, ever.

Speaking of Wraithfighters, they are a perfect example of all-around goodness. It's a psyker to boot. Between smite and your autohitting s12 2d3 shot weapon you're usually removing around 5-6 models an attack. Obviously if you're facing crap like 120 boyz or $TEXAS poxwalkers, less impressive, but my meta is a lot of marines, and 5-6 marines off the table an attack is a good dent in their capabilities. But since it's s12, vehicles, monsters, everything is a good target.

Fire dragons in Wave Serpents are your standard melta, nothing stand-out, but solid life choices to include a squad.

Tl;dr the codex isn't poop. You want to make heavy use of your psychic, strategems (you have a lot of good ones, I mean a lot), and mobility. Kiting is one of your core strengths. You are not a static gunline, and your dudes will fall without good psychic backup, but you are expected to have your buffs up at all time. If your psychic is removed, your army is dead. It's a very enjoyable, tactical, and fluffy playstyle, which I highly recommend if you like hit-and-run and surprising amounts of damage out of nothing.

Last point: People really underestimate bladestorm. A ~16-17% chance to turn a 3+ to a 6+ really adds up considering the amount of just pure shuridakka you can put down the board. (Guardian bomb, for example, 38 bladestorm -3 + platform shurkicannon shots).

Great analysis other than Warlock's conceal cannot affect our flyers. Only infantry and jetbikes.

Ah, you are correct. Mea culpa! -2 to hit between Hard to Hit and Alaitoc will give people nightmares regardless.

I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

quentra wrote:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.

Atlatl Jones wrote:
I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

quentra wrote:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
Guardians, War Walkers and Wraithguard are not likely to get nerfed imo, if you like any of those: go ahead. HQs should be pretty safe too, maybe a Spiritseer and a Farseer. Actually the only problems are with Shining Spears and Dark Reapers with strength from Death. I seriously hope they nerf Ynnari instead of all Eldar lists...

Nah shinning spears issue is they cost about 15 points less than other bike units similarly armed - and they are better for it to. 4++ save to shooting? You have got to be kidding me. Dark reapers are the same way - cost less and are better than other heavy weapon units...they even have the added bonus of having a heavy on every model 3-10 unit sizes and a -1 to hit army trait...OMG.

The spirit seer could probably see a bump to 60 points.

At the same time I hope they reduce the cost of warlocks/ esp warlock bikers.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Atlatl Jones wrote:
I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

quentra wrote:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Spectres cost far too much to be good still. There is no way they should be costing more than spears. 28 would have been fine. Even before the nerf, they were still worse than Spears.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

 Fafnir wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Atlatl Jones wrote:
I have a few units of Corsair Reavers and Skyreavers, with mainly Blasters as their special weapons. Blasters were just changed in the DE Codex to do d6 damage. Will that change affect Corsair blasters too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

quentra wrote:
Shining Spears are amazing. Their mobility, damage, charge damage, fall back+shoot+charge - basically everything is godly. Get a few buffs on them and I've had a single 5-man squad of Spears do more work than the rest of my army.

I really hope the upcoming FAQ doesn't nerf them to the point of uselessness. They could stand to have a slight point increase, but I'm afraid of them being made so expensive that they become not worth taking, like Shadow Specters after Chapter Approved.

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Spectres cost far too much to be good still. There is no way they should be costing more than spears. 28 would have been fine. Even before the nerf, they were still worse than Spears.

is it bad that a part of me is of the opinion that if all the forge world models were alittle over costed, it would be okay???

Lol anywho, I don't really see anything geting a points drop in this FAQ. i seem a few poitns increases, and maybe some rules changes to some cards. To sort of soft nerf them.

What do you think they'd do Fafnir

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

Spears are hugely undercosted though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

Spears are hugely undercosted though.

Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

Spears are hugely undercosted though.

Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.

No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.

35-40ppm is probably the sweet spot for Spears. Keep in mind that they are also only T4, unlike other bike options that are "similarly armed". That makes a real difference.
But I agree, 31ppm is a bit cheap. Anything over 40ppm, however, would be an egregious over-nerf. May as well just stop production and toss them all in a fire

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

Spears are hugely undercosted though.

Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.

No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.

I'd be OK with a 3-4 ppm increase.

 Galef wrote:
35-40ppm is probably the sweet spot for Spears. Keep in mind that they are also only T4, unlike other bike options that are "similarly armed". That makes a real difference.
But I agree, 31ppm is a bit cheap. Anything over 40ppm, however, would be an egregious over-nerf. May as well just stop production and toss them all in a fire

-

Yeah - I agree . Also the exarch lance needs a dramatic increase in price as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Shadow Specters are still amazing. They only stopped being brokenly OP due to being too cheap. I assure you that they are every bit as effective as before, now they just cost a proper amount.

Nah my guy - they cost more than spears which is unacceptable. They were too cheap before hand but at their new cost they're effectively un-fieldable because there are other units available at a lower cost that do their job better at all times.

Spears are hugely undercosted though.

Undercosted? I agree. Hugely undercosted? I do not - they're still effectively 2 space marines to kill each.

No real way to determine what they should cost. Most similar units are terribly bad and overcosted. The PPD on these things is really high though - to put them in line with other elite PPD units they would probably need to go up at least 4 points.

I'd be OK with a 3-4 ppm increase.

Seems like a good place to start - then maybe a few points drop on the spectres and everyone would be happy.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Yeah - I agree . Also the exarch lance needs a dramatic increase in price as well.

If you are going to make the Star Lance more expensive (which I agree it should be) that I'd suggest only 35ppm for Spears and increase the Star lance so that the Exarch is 40ppm.
5 extra point is enough for +1 to wound (sometimes) on only 3 attacks.

-

Hemlocks are definitely a great unit that has been flying under the radar (pun intended).

But if you are just getting started, Spectres are very solid. They are flexible and play well. If Spears get nerfed, they will play a key role. If not, they are still fun and decent.

Specters are overshadowed by spears and Reapers. Once those get adjusted specters will improve. I'd say they might be a tad expensive, but that's probably due to Alaitoc being able to grant a static -2 to hit. Eldar always pay for potential synergies and buffs.