Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured

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**barboggo**

I recently tested a list with 360 fearless Black Legion/Alpha Legion cultists that I believe should do very well with ITC scoring against knights. Yeah, they max out Reaper by T2, but there are literally not enough bullets for them to wipe out enough cultists to prevent my army from maxing Recon, Ground Control, and likely Behind Enemy Lines, while also controlling most or all objectives on every turn except T1.

Could Tyranids do something similar with an extreme "paper" list like that one?

**tag8833**

This list is 4-2 at Nova. Help me understanding it a bit.

Spoiler:

My Theory

Spoiler:

A few questions

Spoiler:

**Amishprn86**

barboggo wrote:
I recently tested a list with 360 fearless Black Legion/Alpha Legion cultists that I believe should do very well with ITC scoring against knights. Yeah, they max out Reaper by T2, but there are literally not enough bullets for them to wipe out enough cultists to prevent my army from maxing Recon, Ground Control, and likely Behind Enemy Lines, while also controlling most or all objectives on every turn except T1.

Could Tyranids do something similar with an extreme "paper" list like that one?

Very Easily, 3 Neurothrope HQ's with Lots of 20-30mans, Tyranids has 4-5man gant units as troops, so its not hard at all.

You can easily get 180 models just in 1 Battalion for 800pts (1000pts with 3 HQ's), and they all can use CP well, so take 2 Battalions with a Malanthrope as the 4th HQ for some -1 to hit, a couple Zoanthropes as well for powers/damage.

For 1500pts you have 270 models with 4 HQ's and 13 CP's, that leaves 500pts for damaging units or Allies, you can easily get lots of Zoanhropes or GSC with Magus.

here isa 2k list i would take currently to a IK/BA/IG ITC tournament
3 Neruothropes
1 Malanthrope
30 Hgants
30 Hgants
30 Hgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
4 Zoanthropes
4 Zoanthropes
4 Zoanthropes

Thats 270 models with 6 Psykers, a good 50% of it -1 to hit (tho IDK if thats best, i just like -1 to hit to keep my models on the table longer)

You can take 45-50 less gants for 3 Magus

**Badablack**

With Horror and malanthropes/venomthropes it’s pretty easy to neuter a knight’s offensive power against critical targets. With a 3 knight list, the biggest threat is still the guy with the relic gun. A Kraken tyrant can jump up the board to Horror him while being relatively safe with his own -1 hit relic. In some cases it might be useful to make the Tyrant your warlord, just to bait out wasted shots against a -2/-3 to hit slay the warlord target.

**N.I.B.**

Amishprn86 wrote:
We just need units like Haruspex to be better, why is it hitting on 4+ with such little attacks? its only going to get 1-2 wound rolls in, for a 200pt melee only MC its very weak.

Im fine with Nids not having Good long range Long range shooting, every army needs a couple holes in them, but our MC should be very scary in melee, a Scout Power lifter shouldnt be equal in melee compare to a 200pt monster for only 45pts..... (i know its D3 vs D6 damage, but you can take 3 of them and its way more damage and 18 wounds vs 12 for 135pts vs 198pts)

I'm starting to think GW's design policy when it comes to Nids is - 'Tyranids are hard to balance, they can field so many different monsters, which will be OP if they are individually good. The safe solution is to make them bad'. IIRC Reece said something to that effect, a good while back.

Amishprn86 wrote:
barboggo wrote:
I recently tested a list with 360 fearless Black Legion/Alpha Legion cultists that I believe should do very well with ITC scoring against knights. Yeah, they max out Reaper by T2, but there are literally not enough bullets for them to wipe out enough cultists to prevent my army from maxing Recon, Ground Control, and likely Behind Enemy Lines, while also controlling most or all objectives on every turn except T1.

Could Tyranids do something similar with an extreme "paper" list like that one?

Very Easily, 3 Neurothrope HQ's with Lots of 20-30mans, Tyranids has 4-5man gant units as troops, so its not hard at all.

You can easily get 180 models just in 1 Battalion for 800pts (1000pts with 3 HQ's), and they all can use CP well, so take 2 Battalions with a Malanthrope as the 4th HQ for some -1 to hit, a couple Zoanthropes as well for powers/damage.

For 1500pts you have 270 models with 4 HQ's and 13 CP's, that leaves 500pts for damaging units or Allies, you can easily get lots of Zoanhropes or GSC with Magus.

here isa 2k list i would take currently to a IK/BA/IG ITC tournament
3 Neruothropes
1 Malanthrope
30 Hgants
30 Hgants
30 Hgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
30 Tgants
4 Zoanthropes
4 Zoanthropes
4 Zoanthropes

Thats 270 models with 6 Psykers, a good 50% of it -1 to hit (tho IDK if thats best, i just like -1 to hit to keep my models on the table longer)

You can take 45-50 less gants for 3 Magus

That's more or less Nick Rose's ETC list, although he base it in GSC Neophytes and splashes Nids for Hormagaunts. It got him a couple of wins in the Nova Invitational, and best GSC player in the Open bracket at #31. He still lost to AM/BA/IK.

**Amishprn86**

Yeah, Mind Control and Cult Ambush is really good, i fully see why everyone would take them, i just dont have the models.

**SHUPPET**

I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

**Amishprn86**

Mind control is counter tho.... If you can Mind control the Knight you waste the Missile and you shoot their unit next to the knight killing a unit for free.

**SHUPPET**

Amishprn86 wrote:
Mind control is counter tho.... If you can Mind control the Knight you waste the Missile and you shoot their unit next to the knight killing a unit for free.

His list still lost is the point. This helps but isn't some tactic that changes the meta for us.

**Amishprn86**

SHUPPET wrote:
Amishprn86 wrote:
Mind control is counter tho.... If you can Mind control the Knight you waste the Missile and you shoot their unit next to the knight killing a unit for free.

His list still lost is the point. This helps but isn't some tactic that changes the meta for us.

And he (if i read it correctly) beat another list just like it. Just b.c he lost this one list doesnt mean he cant win.

**SHUPPET**

But it probably does mean it's not a counter to it, if Nick Rose still lost to it.

Regardless, did he actually get any wins vs this list? Which round? I thought they started throwing Tony's IoM list at the Knight lists iirc

**Amishprn86**

We already talked about the best way to counter it as nid tho, thats to ignore it or use it to help you win.

Not every army can counter everything, some are weak to knights, others are weak to hordes, the fact that he did beat a Knight/IG list is proof you can beat them. Nice comes down to it also, you can lose a game and do everything right and counter them completely all because you failed a few dice roles and they didnt.

**SHUPPET**

Amishprn86 wrote:
We already talked about the best way to counter it as nid tho, thats to ignore it or use it to help you win.

One person wondered if we could counter them like this, and you alone assured that we would, not much of a discussion was had lol. It is probably one of the better ways to be able to play the match up, but let's not overstate the conclusion yet, we are still trying to discuss it.

Amishprn86 wrote:
the fact that he did beat a Knight/IG list

Is this a fact at all? You just posted that you weren't really sure, and it's not what I heard their captain Sean Nayden say at all. Any sort of source on this, this should be easy to iron out?

Amishprn86 wrote:
is proof you can beat them. Nice comes down to it also, you can lose a game and do everything right and counter them completely all because you failed a few dice roles and they didnt.

They same holds true for regular lists. Look, you're the person who's saying that this list changes the meta for us and that the showing at ETC is proof of anything, and while it's up in the air if that's right about the list, ETC showing certainly doesn't support the conclusion you are making.

**Amishprn86**

https://challonge.com/NOVAinvite18

That isnt Nick beating a IK/IG/BA list? I might have read the information wrong, let me know if thats the case.

And i said "able to beat" that doesnt mean every person is able to nor will always be top 10, in tournaments you ALWAYS have to get lucky with match-ups, dice roles, etc...

Im saying Nids will start to do better in tournaments, never did i say they will always win them

**SHUPPET**

Amishprn86 wrote:
https://challonge.com/NOVAinvite18

That isnt Nick beating a IK/IG/BA list? I might have read the information wrong, let me know if thats the case.

That is him indeed him doing it. You were saying it happened at the ETC however, but this game is from NOVA, which is why I couldn't find it. But he also lost immediately after to the same Castellan Gaurd BA style list, so it's not really indicative of anything

Amishprn86 wrote:
And i said "able to beat" that doesnt mean every person is able to nor will always be top 10, in tournaments you ALWAYS have to get lucky with match-ups, dice roles, etc...

Im saying Nids will start to do better in tournaments, never did i say they will always win them

I know what you said, I quite clearly responded to exactly that and didn't alter it in any way to say anything else. Unlike exactly what you've just done. Where did I say you will always get top 10 in every tournament, and always win every tournament? Literally all I said is that your evidence given so far did not support your claims that it's a counter to the things destroying us in the meta, because the only example provided (before this post) was an event where it lost to this very list. This shouldn't be this difficult.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My opinion: As I mentioned a few pages ago I personally think the list is very strong and capable. But to add to that, that I'm not convinced that it turns our losing matches upside down yet or even that it balances them up. While it is possible, I just haven't seen the evidence nor a convincing argument for it yet. The Catachan detachments naturally deal pretty well with the horde, and mind control with Magus will have some sort of impact, but 9 games outta 10 not the magical-christmas-land steal-a-castellan-and-shoot-down-a-tank-with-it impact that some people seem to expect it to.

**Amishprn86**

I never said ETC tho, i said that list has and can beat IK/Ig list.

All lists needs to be modified a bit depending on the tournaments houses rules (Nova, ITC, ETC, etc...)

**SHUPPET**

I must have misread then. We'll see how it proceeds in time. At Nova it went 1 for 1 against AM/BA/IK so not yet really indicative of anything. Anything can win a single game against anything, we'll see what can do it consistently.

**Amishprn86**

I just hope that GW see how Nova is, we wont have to see by the next tournament and we have a balancing update.

**Spoletta**

I don't think that casteallans and CP sharing will make it far honestly. The odds of both being nerfed are quite high.

**tag8833**

Took out my Carnifex list to a 20 person RTT today. It was a Knight heavy event. 22 knights present (though 5 of those are armigers)

I build the list to counter knights, and was thinking this would be a good test of it. The list far outperformed my expectations.

My list:

Spoiler:

Round 1:

Spoiler:

Round 2:

Spoiler:

vs Tyranids: 17 Zoenthropes, Neurothrope, Malanthrope. 3 Behemouth Tyrants, Patriarch, Magus, 3 Neophytes.
Mission: ITC champs with 6 objectives.
Deployment: Pointy Dawn of War.

Mildly a mirror match. Because He didn't have much shooting I deployed everything. Screened the front of my army with the neophytes, deployted the carnifexes back a bit. Spread out my characters so he couldn't linebreaker bombard. He deployed in a cluster in the middle but deep struck his hive tyrants, patriarch, Magus, and neophytes.

He goes 1st. Deep strikes in the Tyrants. Smite kill a bunch of neophytes. I'm able to deny a couple spells, and he fails a couple. He shoots a unit of neophytes down to 1, and I use CP's to auto pass moral so he doesn't kill a unit or get 1st strike. On my turn I send my Tyrants forward aggressively. He has 1 unit of zoenthropes up front screening his warlord neurothrope. I manage to smite 2 of the 6 dead. A couple dakkafexes have to shoot one of his tyrants because they can't see the zoeys, but everything else shoots those zoeys, and I kill them down to 2 which isn't enough to prevent me from charging in with the flyrants, and killing the neurothrope warlord, then I fight again, and kill the Malanthrope. Pretty intense.

Turn 2, he brings in the neophytes, spends 2 to bring in the patriarch close to my warlord. I left a little zone open in my backfield just big enough for the patriarch, and he rolled a 5 on cult ambush. Lots of attempts to cast spells, but without the reroll 1's, and with all my denies, he barely gets any off. His flyrants go aggressively after my carnifexes. They kill 2, and tie up 2 more. Patriarch fails to kill my warlord. I bring one flyrant back to mess with his, and try to smite a 5 wound flyrant off of a Carnifex, but only end up doing 4 to it. Dakkafex kills his neophytes. Cannonfex puts 5 wounds on a flyrant. I charge in with a fex hoping to mortal wound the last off of his flyrant, but fail to do so, so I use the behomouth strat to charge my tyrant into his and the patriarch. I mortal wound the flyrant to death, then fight and kill the Patriarch. My other 2 flyrants Kill a zoey each in CC.

Turn 3, He leaves combat with his zoeys, and smite one flyrant down by 5 wounds. His Tyrants charge my tyrant, but One is Horrored. And they only do 3 wounds to me thanks to some clutch invuls, and a reroll. I swing back and kill the wounded flyrant. It's looking bleak. He is down to 8 zoeys, a wounded Flyrant, and some neophytes. I smite his flyrant down a few more wounds. Then shoot and kill 3 of his remaining zoeys My flyrant engaged with is flyrant finish it. Another flyrant kills a zoey. Another flyrant kills some rippers to hold 5 of the 6 objectives. He's got very little left at this point and concedes.

Final score 35 to 11 me. Wow. I thought this was a really bad matchup for me. But those neophytes screening me for a turn, and getting his warlord early was huge.

Round 3:

Spoiler:

VS Knights: 1st or 2nd best knights in the ITC last year. Crusaders (Gatling, RFBC), Gallant, Styx, 2 Taurox Primes (Gatling), 3 units of plasma scions, 2 Tempestor primes, 1 Command squad with plasma.
Mission: ITC champs with 5 objectives.
Deployment: Dawn of War.

I deploy my carnifexes a little deeper than normal to make sure he cant turn 1 charge me. Characters behind them. Deep strike my flyrants, neophytes, and Mind Control magus. He Deploys the knights in 1 corner, and the Tauroxes full of scions in the other, and a few scions in deep strike. For the 1st time, I don't get the +1 to go 1st. He wins the roll off, and decides to go 1st. Which is fine by me, because most of my stuff is out of range, and he can't charge. me. Tauroxes make me take a couple saves, but I make them. Knights fire into a dakkafex. I make most of my safes, and it loses 2 wounds. Yes. his entire army only did 2 WOUNDS to me on turn 1. I spread out my carnifexes a bit. Try to run my magus into range to mass hypnosis a knight, but roll a 1, so I use him to screen my backfield against scion deep strikers. Because he moved up in a clusters His Styx and Gallant are right next to each other (base to base). So I spend a CP to roll 2 dice on cult ambush for a magus and some neophytes. Roll a 5. I bring them in right in front of the knights, move the neophytesm d6" to form a solid wall connecting 2 pieces of terrain and movement blocking the center of the table. I fail mind control with a reroll. BOO. Smites take a few wounds off each knight, and I use the Horror on the Crusader. My dakkafexes have range problems, and have to split their fire between the knights. But they do decent work, putting a few wounds on each knight with pathogenic slime getting me 6 wounds on the Styx. Cannonfexes try to kill a Taurox and fail. BOO. Still, I held more, because he is so tightly clustered in the middle.

Turn 2, he dumps scions out of the tauroxes, and plink a couple wounds off of carnifexes. The Crusader moves around the terrain to line up a charge, but the Styx, and Gallant just move up to my movement blocking neophytes. He shoots the Crusader into a carnifex hitting on 5's, and does no damage, but a Taurox prime manages to kill my neophyte screen. Apparently the Gallant gives a +2 charge aura. Turning his changers into a 7", 9", and 8". He makes all 3.. So the Styx charges and kills a carnifex. The Gallant charges and kills my mind control Magus. BOO. And the Crusader charges 2 dakkafexes, and does nothing. I decide the flyrants are going to kill the gallant. I spread out the carnifexes on objectives, fall back from the crusader, bring in some neophytes on objectives. Smite a bunch of wounds off the knights. Put Mass Hypnosis and the Horror on the Crusader. Put Paroxism on the Gallant. Dakka fexes kill all the scions. Cannon fexes kill a Taurox. The Flyrants all multicharge the Crusaders and gallant. Apparently he can spend a CP to turn knights into tau, so his Styx gets to overwatch all 3 flyrants as they charge. Doesn't do much to me. Flyrant 1 takes the Gallant down to 5. Flyrant 2 takes it down to 1 HP. UG! Flyrant 3 splits it's attacks on the Gallant and the Crusader, and finishes the gallant (8 wounds) and does some to the crusader bringing it down to 11. The Gallant uses a strategem to fight after it dies, and beats a flyrant down to 2. Crusader takes another flyrant down to 6. I only have 5 CP left. I opt not to fight again which is a mistake.

Turn 3, he leaves combat. Deep strikes in his remaining scions. They kill one unit of neophytes, and take a wound off a flyrant. His Styx fails to hurt the badly wounded flyrant thanks to making a bunch of invuls and a reroll. Crusader has to finish it. Styx and crusader both charge in. Styx kills a wounded flyrant, then I interrupt to take the Crusader down to 1. It swings back and does nothing. On my turn I put all of the smites into the Styx, and kill it. But it uses a strategem to shoot after it dies, and kills my last flyrant. Dakkafex kills the Crusader. Other dakkafexes kill scions. I have one squad of neophytes in position to kill the final scions ready to shoot, and then charge them, but we get a hard dice down.

At this point. All he had left was a Taurox prime, and 5 scions that were about to get killed by neophytes. So I would have easily tabled him at the bottom of 4.

Final score: 17 to 13. I HATE, HATE, HATE!!!!! 2 hour rounds at 2,000 points. It is nutty to expect games to finish if either player is marginally slow. We only needed 10 more minutes to finish this one, and I did finish the other two, so I have confirmed that my list plays much, much, much faster than previous lists I've run.

Final Thoughts:

Spoiler:

**N.I.B.**

tag8833 wrote:
Took out my Carnifex list to a 20 person RTT today. It was a Knight heavy event. 22 knights present (though 5 of those are armigers)

I build the list to counter knights, and was thinking this would be a good test of it. The list far outperformed my expectations.

My list:

Spoiler:

Jormandr Spearhead (+1 CP)
Neurothrope Psychic Powers: Psychic Scream *Warlord: Insidious Threat (3” ignore cover bubble)
Neurothrope Psychic Powers: The Horror

Carnifex (HVC, DS, BM, ES, SC) + Carnifex (HVC, DS, BM, ES, SC) + Carnifex (HVC, DS, BM, ES, SC)
Carnifex (2 TL-Devs, BM, ES, SC) + Carnifex (2 TL-Devs, BM, ES, SC)
Carnifex (2 TL-Devs, BM, ES, SC) + Carnifex (2 TL-Devs, BM, ES, SC)

Behemoth Supreme Command (+1 CP)
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Dev, TS, AG) Psychic: Catalyst, Onslaught (or Paroxysm)
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Dev, TS, AG) Psychic: Paroxysm, The Horror Relic: Ymgrl Factor
Hive Tyrant (Wings, Dev, TS, AG) Psychic: Catalyst, The Horror
Neurothrope Psychic Powers: Catalyst

GSC Battallion (+5 CP)
Magus Psychic Powers: Mind Control
Magus Psychic Powers: Mass Hypnosis

Neophytes
Neophytes
Neophytes

Round 1:

Spoiler:

vs Tau. Player new to tourneys. Riptide, ghostkiel, 3 Broadsides, 16 drones, 15 fire warriors, cadre fireblade, 2 Tau commanders, Hammerhead, 2 FW Crisis Suites.
Mission: Kill Points
Deployment: Pointy Hammer and Anvil

I deep struck the Tyrants, Neophytes, and Mind Control Magus. The carnifexes deployed on the line. He deep struck the Commanders, and infiltrated the Ghost Kiel. The rest of his army was clustered in the middles except for the Broadsides and Hammer head which were spread out.

I got 1st turn, smited the Ghostkiel to death, used a CP to cult ambush in some neophytes with the mind control magus. Neophytes shoot some drones to death. Magus mind controls the Riptide, and shoots and kills a broadside, and then I cast The Horror on the Riptide. Dakka fexes kill 2 of the fire warrior teams. Cannonfexes kill the 2 FW crisis suites, and some drones. He double nova charged the Riptide, and moved it forward aggressively. Shoots and does NOTHING. Not quite nothing. 4 wounds to a carnifex, and killed 7 of the neophytes. Turn 2 I smite the Riptide down to 2. Drop the Tyrants, and kill the hammerhead, and remaining broadsides. I actually didn't even shoot my carnifexes at him, because I didn't want to run up the score. His turn, he drops the commanders, and kills a carnifex. My turn 3 I table him.

The only unit I lost this game was a single carnifex. KP total 1997 to 117. Holy cow.

Round 2:

Spoiler:

vs Tyranids: 17 Zoenthropes, Neurothrope, Malanthrope. 3 Behemouth Tyrants, Patriarch, Magus, 3 Neophytes.
Mission: ITC champs with 6 objectives.
Deployment: Pointy Dawn of War.

Mildly a mirror match. Because He didn't have much shooting I deployed everything. Screened the front of my army with the neophytes, deployted the carnifexes back a bit. Spread out my characters so he couldn't linebreaker bombard. He deployed in a cluster in the middle but deep struck his hive tyrants, patriarch, Magus, and neophytes.

He goes 1st. Deep strikes in the Tyrants. Smite kill a bunch of neophytes. I'm able to deny a couple spells, and he fails a couple. He shoots a unit of neophytes down to 1, and I use CP's to auto pass moral so he doesn't kill a unit or get 1st strike. On my turn I send my Tyrants forward aggressively. He has 1 unit of zoenthropes up front screening his warlord neurothrope. I manage to smite 2 of the 6 dead. A couple dakkafexes have to shoot one of his tyrants because they can't see the zoeys, but everything else shoots those zoeys, and I kill them down to 2 which isn't enough to prevent me from charging in with the flyrants, and killing the neurothrope warlord, then I fight again, and kill the Malanthrope. Pretty intense.

Turn 2, he brings in the neophytes, spends 2 to bring in the patriarch close to my warlord. I left a little zone open in my backfield just big enough for the patriarch, and he rolled a 5 on cult ambush. Lots of attempts to cast spells, but without the reroll 1's, and with all my denies, he barely gets any off. His flyrants go aggressively after my carnifexes. They kill 2, and tie up 2 more. Patriarch fails to kill my warlord. I bring one flyrant back to mess with his, and try to smite a 5 wound flyrant off of a Carnifex, but only end up doing 4 to it. Dakkafex kills his neophytes. Cannonfex puts 5 wounds on a flyrant. I charge in with a fex hoping to mortal wound the last off of his flyrant, but fail to do so, so I use the behomouth strat to charge my tyrant into his and the patriarch. I mortal wound the flyrant to death, then fight and kill the Patriarch. My other 2 flyrants Kill a zoey each in CC.

Turn 3, He leaves combat with his zoeys, and smite one flyrant down by 5 wounds. His Tyrants charge my tyrant, but One is Horrored. And they only do 3 wounds to me thanks to some clutch invuls, and a reroll. I swing back and kill the wounded flyrant. It's looking bleak. He is down to 8 zoeys, a wounded Flyrant, and some neophytes. I smite his flyrant down a few more wounds. Then shoot and kill 3 of his remaining zoeys My flyrant engaged with is flyrant finish it. Another flyrant kills a zoey. Another flyrant kills some rippers to hold 5 of the 6 objectives. He's got very little left at this point and concedes.

Final score 35 to 11 me. Wow. I thought this was a really bad matchup for me. But those neophytes screening me for a turn, and getting his warlord early was huge.

Round 3:

Spoiler:

VS Knights: 1st or 2nd best knights in the ITC last year. Crusaders (Gatling, RFBC), Gallant, Styx, 2 Taurox Primes (Gatling), 3 units of plasma scions, 2 Tempestor primes, 1 Command squad with plasma.
Mission: ITC champs with 5 objectives.
Deployment: Dawn of War.

I deploy my carnifexes a little deeper than normal to make sure he cant turn 1 charge me. Characters behind them. Deep strike my flyrants, neophytes, and Mind Control magus. He Deploys the knights in 1 corner, and the Tauroxes full of scions in the other, and a few scions in deep strike. For the 1st time, I don't get the +1 to go 1st. He wins the roll off, and decides to go 1st. Which is fine by me, because most of my stuff is out of range, and he can't charge. me. Tauroxes make me take a couple saves, but I make them. Knights fire into a dakkafex. I make most of my safes, and it loses 2 wounds. Yes. his entire army only did 2 WOUNDS to me on turn 1. I spread out my carnifexes a bit. Try to run my magus into range to mass hypnosis a knight, but roll a 1, so I use him to screen my backfield against scion deep strikers. Because he moved up in a clusters His Styx and Gallant are right next to each other (base to base). So I spend a CP to roll 2 dice on cult ambush for a magus and some neophytes. Roll a 5. I bring them in right in front of the knights, move the neophytesm d6" to form a solid wall connecting 2 pieces of terrain and movement blocking the center of the table. I fail mind control with a reroll. BOO. Smites take a few wounds off each knight, and I use the Horror on the Crusader. My dakkafexes have range problems, and have to split their fire between the knights. But they do decent work, putting a few wounds on each knight with pathogenic slime getting me 6 wounds on the Styx. Cannonfexes try to kill a Taurox and fail. BOO. Still, I held more, because he is so tightly clustered in the middle.

Turn 2, he dumps scions out of the tauroxes, and plink a couple wounds off of carnifexes. The Crusader moves around the terrain to line up a charge, but the Styx, and Gallant just move up to my movement blocking neophytes. He shoots the Crusader into a carnifex hitting on 5's, and does no damage, but a Taurox prime manages to kill my neophyte screen. Apparently the Gallant gives a +2 charge aura. Turning his changers into a 7", 9", and 8". He makes all 3.. So the Styx charges and kills a carnifex. The Gallant charges and kills my mind control Magus. BOO. And the Crusader charges 2 dakkafexes, and does nothing. I decide the flyrants are going to kill the gallant. I spread out the carnifexes on objectives, fall back from the crusader, bring in some neophytes on objectives. Smite a bunch of wounds off the knights. Put Mass Hypnosis and the Horror on the Crusader. Put Paroxism on the Gallant. Dakka fexes kill all the scions. Cannon fexes kill a Taurox. The Flyrants all multicharge the Crusaders and gallant. Apparently he can spend a CP to turn knights into tau, so his Styx gets to overwatch all 3 flyrants as they charge. Doesn't do much to me. Flyrant 1 takes the Gallant down to 5. Flyrant 2 takes it down to 1 HP. UG! Flyrant 3 splits it's attacks on the Gallant and the Crusader, and finishes the gallant (8 wounds) and does some to the crusader bringing it down to 11. The Gallant uses a strategem to fight after it dies, and beats a flyrant down to 2. Crusader takes another flyrant down to 6. I only have 5 CP left. I opt not to fight again which is a mistake.

Turn 3, he leaves combat. Deep strikes in his remaining scions. They kill one unit of neophytes, and take a wound off a flyrant. His Styx fails to hurt the badly wounded flyrant thanks to making a bunch of invuls and a reroll. Crusader has to finish it. Styx and crusader both charge in. Styx kills a wounded flyrant, then I interrupt to take the Crusader down to 1. It swings back and does nothing. On my turn I put all of the smites into the Styx, and kill it. But it uses a strategem to shoot after it dies, and kills my last flyrant. Dakkafex kills the Crusader. Other dakkafexes kill scions. I have one squad of neophytes in position to kill the final scions ready to shoot, and then charge them, but we get a hard dice down.

At this point. All he had left was a Taurox prime, and 5 scions that were about to get killed by neophytes. So I would have easily tabled him at the bottom of 4.

Final score: 17 to 13. I HATE, HATE, HATE!!!!! 2 hour rounds at 2,000 points. It is nutty to expect games to finish if either player is marginally slow. We only needed 10 more minutes to finish this one, and I did finish the other two, so I have confirmed that my list plays much, much, much faster than previous lists I've run.

Final Thoughts:

Spoiler:

There were 2 3-0 players. I got #1 overall by 7 battle points.

Dear lord was my list effective. Way, way beyond my wildest expectations. That being said I didn't really face the meta list. So I'm not positive I have something.

I've won RTT's before, but I've never won them by effectively tabling all of my opponents by turn 4.

Dakkafexes are better anti-tank than I gave them credit for. The one who uses pathogenic slime normally does 4 to 6 wounds. I thought I had a list with durability that wouldn't die easily, but I underestimated the effective offensive output. These 3 tourney games are in keeping with my practice games. I'm so happy to have found a low model count army that I think is effective.

Sounds good. You have MRC on the Flyrants I assume?
Not regretting taking Behemoth over Kraken?

Regarding Pathogenic Slime, at which point do you use it? Pre-saves, or post-saves? I know some players (like Juice from The Long War) pop the strat after the opponent has failed his armour/invo saves, which I think is incorrect. If you break it down, you can choose to roll saves one at a time, which is what you would want to do if a Tyranid opponent waited to pop Pathogenic Slime on you.

**Amishprn86**

I like Behemoth, especially if you are DSing, AG with an 8" charge with re-rolls and a CP re-roll (I know you cant use both at once, but the 2 options) you can easily get a Flyrant into combat.

**tneva82**

N.I.B. wrote:

Regarding Pathogenic Slime, at which point do you use it? Pre-saves, or post-saves? I know some players (like Juice from The Long War) pop the strat after the opponent has failed his armour/invo saves, which I think is incorrect. If you break it down, you can choose to roll saves one at a time, which is what you would want to do if a Tyranid opponent waited to pop Pathogenic Slime on you.

Certainly worth considering do you want to slow down game by using it post-saves if you are hard pressed on time. You do that once, opponent decides he's not fast-rolling(which is optional) so will roll them one at a time. Which negates your post-save advantage quite a bit AND takes more time. If he struggled with the 2h 2k limit anyway...

**N.I.B.**

SHUPPET wrote:
I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

Rose's ETC list has ~230 mostly fearless bodies, backed up by Smites. That list won 19-1 against the French Ynnari list (and winner of the singles event, with a perfect 100/100 score).

Sean Nayden said team USA were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win, along with Kopachs Imperium soup. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw under the bus when they needed to do that.

Rose and Kopach clashed in the Nova Invitational semifinals were Kopach edged him out, hence it 'lost to Knights'. To be fair Rose squashed the same-ish list in the quarter finals. I don't know what he faced in the Open tournament.

Edit - Rose's list was the second highest scoring of all ETC lists, when it comes to weighted leaderboard (strenght of schedual, or Dorner points). #1 list in ETC in that category, was the Polish Tyranid Genestealer spam.

**Amishprn86**

What was the Gensetealer spam list? Just curious as i play with 70 from time to time for fun.

**SHUPPET**

N.I.B. wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

Rose's ETC list has ~230 mostly fearless bodies, backed up by Smites. That list won 19-1 against the French Ynnari list (and winner of the singles event, with a perfect 100/100 score).

Sean Nayden said team USA were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win, along with Kopachs Imperium soup. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw under the bus when they needed to do that.

I know - I was the one who said this first. You just quoted my own words from a few pages ago back to me lol

here and here:

SHUPPET wrote:
Tony's was designed to be their all star, and every other list came second to that, and that was their process in building their composition. They were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and on their day it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win.

This is all from the mouth of team captain Sean Nayden BTW.

SHUPPET wrote:
Sean Nayden said that their IG/BA/Knight list and that Tyranid list, were their two powerhouses all day who they just threw at lists knowing that they'd grab a win. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw to wolves when they needed to do that.

I know the list is strong, I've been saying that. What I was saying is that it may not be enough to really turn a losing match-up upside down. I'm also not saying that it's NOT able to do this either, just that the evidence given for it at the time didn't really support the conclusion being presented.

**tag8833**

N.I.B. wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
Took out my Carnifex list to a 20 person RTT today. It was a Knight heavy event. 22 knights present (though 5 of those are armigers)

Sounds good. You have MRC on the Flyrants I assume?
Not regretting taking Behemoth over Kraken?

Regarding Pathogenic Slime, at which point do you use it? Pre-saves, or post-saves? I know some players (like Juice from The Long War) pop the strat after the opponent has failed his armour/invo saves, which I think is incorrect. If you break it down, you can choose to roll saves one at a time, which is what you would want to do if a Tyranid opponent waited to pop Pathogenic Slime on you.

I do run MRC on all 3 flyrants. There is no doubt that Behemoth is better than Kraken for the army I'm running. I need to deep strike those flyrants if my opponent has shooting. For instance against the Knights, if I had been Kraken I don't kill the Gallant, and have to drop the flyrants 1/2 way across the table to prevent them from being murdered by the knights.

I do use pathogenic slime after I see how many armor saves my opponent has failed. It happens "In the shooting phase" I don't know why fast dice would ever be an issue with that. Far as I could tell I could shoot carnifex A, then shoot carnifex B then go back and use pathogenic slime on Carnifex A so long as it is still the shooting phase. I don't do that for added bookkeeping, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm pretty confident that is how GW plays it on their Twitch stream as well. I might be imagining it, but I remember a time that Kari used it on an Exocrine after saves were taken. There was discussion in chat afterwards, and she justified it the way I just did: "It was still the shooting phase".

**tneva82**

tag8833 wrote:
I do use pathogenic slime after I see how many armor saves my opponent has failed. It happens "In the shooting phase" I don't know why fast dice would ever be an issue with that. Far as I could tell I could shoot carnifex A, then shoot carnifex B then go back and use pathogenic slime on Carnifex A so long as it is still the shooting phase. I don't do that for added bookkeeping, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm pretty confident that is how GW plays it on their Twitch stream as well. I might be imagining it, but I remember a time that Kari used it on an Exocrine after saves were taken. There was discussion in chat afterwards, and she justified it the way I just did: "It was still the shooting phase".

So if you do that this is what smart opponent will do. He declares he doesn't do fast rolling. So he rolls save. Fail. "Do you use strategem?". If you do then he can roll rest and it's same as if you rolled before. If you don't use...Well that's 1 wound that didn't benefit from strategem.

And if you start shooting with carnifex B then carnifex A is over and damage is marked. You can use it but doesn't change damage.

So yeah you can use after saves but if you don't use it after failed save before opponent rolls next that damage is already done and recorded. Won't be boosted retroactively.

**N.I.B.**

tneva82 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
I do use pathogenic slime after I see how many armor saves my opponent has failed. It happens "In the shooting phase" I don't know why fast dice would ever be an issue with that. Far as I could tell I could shoot carnifex A, then shoot carnifex B then go back and use pathogenic slime on Carnifex A so long as it is still the shooting phase. I don't do that for added bookkeeping, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm pretty confident that is how GW plays it on their Twitch stream as well. I might be imagining it, but I remember a time that Kari used it on an Exocrine after saves were taken. There was discussion in chat afterwards, and she justified it the way I just did: "It was still the shooting phase".

So if you do that this is what smart opponent will do. He declares he doesn't do fast rolling. So he rolls save. Fail. "Do you use strategem?". If you do then he can roll rest and it's same as if you rolled before. If you don't use...Well that's 1 wound that didn't benefit from strategem.

And if you start shooting with carnifex B then carnifex A is over and damage is marked. You can use it but doesn't change damage.

So yeah you can use after saves but if you don't use it after failed save before opponent rolls next that damage is already done and recorded. Won't be boosted retroactively.

This. Declare no fast rolling. One failed save - 'do you want to pop your strat? No?'. Rinse and repeat. It looks to me as the situations were I as a Tyranid player most would want to pop this strat are 'Gotcha!' situations that can be avoided just by rolling saves one at a time. Otherwise it's a gamble for the Tyranid player.

It's weird and I don't know what to make of it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SHUPPET wrote:
N.I.B. wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I think the main point is that it's not a counter to the Knight lists or the meta that's running around bodying Nids right now

Rose's ETC list has ~230 mostly fearless bodies, backed up by Smites. That list won 19-1 against the French Ynnari list (and winner of the singles event, with a perfect 100/100 score).

Sean Nayden said team USA were surprised by the Nick Rose Tyranid list themselves but in testing found it to be strong and it was one of their strongest choices for when they wanted a win, along with Kopachs Imperium soup. Andrew Gonyo's AdMech was who they threw under the bus when they needed to do that.

I know - I was the one who said this first. You just quoted my own words from a few pages ago back to me lol

Haha, yeah I lost track were it came from. Don't think it's intended as a Knight killer tho.

https://challonge.com/NOVAinvite18

**tag8833**

tneva82 wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
I do use pathogenic slime after I see how many armor saves my opponent has failed. It happens "In the shooting phase" I don't know why fast dice would ever be an issue with that. Far as I could tell I could shoot carnifex A, then shoot carnifex B then go back and use pathogenic slime on Carnifex A so long as it is still the shooting phase. I don't do that for added bookkeeping, but I don't know why I couldn't. I'm pretty confident that is how GW plays it on their Twitch stream as well. I might be imagining it, but I remember a time that Kari used it on an Exocrine after saves were taken. There was discussion in chat afterwards, and she justified it the way I just did: "It was still the shooting phase".

So if you do that this is what smart opponent will do. He declares he doesn't do fast rolling. So he rolls save. Fail. "Do you use strategem?". If you do then he can roll rest and it's same as if you rolled before. If you don't use...Well that's 1 wound that didn't benefit from strategem.

And if you start shooting with carnifex B then carnifex A is over and damage is marked. You can use it but doesn't change damage.

So yeah you can use after saves but if you don't use it after failed save before opponent rolls next that damage is already done and recorded. Won't be boosted retroactively.

I don't agree with your RAW interpretation, and wrote a long response to it, that doesn't belong in this thread and should be in YMDC instead.

Functionally, I'm just going to wait until an Opponent makes that sort of argument, and then let a TO rule over it. It's definitely a point where reasonable people could disagree. I included it in my email that I sent to the FAQ team as an item that I would like clarified. I used to clear with TO's that I could use it after saves, but everyone always said yes, so I don't bother any more. I've been challenged about it in games, but my opponents always read the stratagem and agree with my interpretation. If someone wants to get really gamey about it and try to roll saves one at a time, I'll either let them because 1 or 2 damage usually doesn't matter that much or call a judge.

My opinion is that the Exocrine and Tyrannofex need a bit of help right now. Hive Guard outshine them so dramatically thanks to the Single-Minded Annihilation strat. The Rupture cannon TFex especially since it is so abysmal at killing imperial knights which should be something it does well. So I would love to see the strategem clarified and changed to this:
"Before a TYRANID MONSTER shoots in the shooting phase, use this strategem to DOUBLE the damage done by it's attacks for the remainder of the phase."

With that change I'd still use it, and it would improve Tyranid Army diversity substantially. People might start looking at the gun beast monsters again instead of only playing Hive Guard.

ETA. If we made the change above, and Onslaught let you shoot after falling back, it would completely fix both the TFex and Exocrine in my opinion.