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 catbarf wrote:

 Nitro Zeus wrote:
Pitiful? No. A little below what you may expect from a 400 pt unit, sure. But it has other excellent strengths and can just do a bunch of stuff that a Knight cannot. It’s a finesse unit that takes more thought to play than the average Knight, but this also comes with a lot of options. I took the right risks and it killed over its value in points every single game of the event! And weathered a bunch of fire while doing so. How it plays was not reflected at all by its data sheet, there’s a lot of hidden value in there. The player who got 4th at the GT beat out a ton of nasty stuff with it by the last round was undefeated, and he lost only to that Iron Hands player who that ended up winning the event.

I wouldn’t write it off. Especially not now.

Do you mind going into a little more detail? I'd like to put the Hierodule to good use, but just calling it a finesse unit and saying it can do stuff a Knight can't is really vague.

No worries whatsoever, you're absolutely right that it's just vague buzzwords really, and I'm happy to elaborate.

The first thing is it's threat range. You move a full twelve and advance a flat 6" if you want to use Onslaught. You can double this with a Swarmlord. This let's you make BIG movements, and knowing how to take advantage of big movement speed is already a point of skill and opens up a lot of choice. And with a 3D6 charge (drop the lowest dice) you can actually be pretty confident in a 8+" charge. You don't take bigger risks unless you need to, you can often use regular movement and park in front of your target if you can. With that sort of movement you can really scan the whole board and look for an opening and just dart out of nowhere to do it.

What that opening is depends on the opponents. Against something like AdMech I put him right up point blank range against the rangers in front of the planted Phosphex bots, dakka + acid downed the screen, and in the charge phase bust into the bots and chew them up, keeping myself safely locked in combat with the bot unit incapable of falling back, and also forcing fallbacks on anything else that I could base with him, infantry just simply isn't doing anything but dying to T8/3+/24W. You can look for units that you can block in to walls or corners with your big base. But that's just the start of the cute stuff. In one of my games I had been making a safe advane under the Malanthrope, my opponent was being cautious - but I saw an opportunity, used the movement to circle around the back of some infantry, charged a Daemon Prince and a Sorceror with a bit of a gap between each other. Killed the DP, used the fight twice strat to pile into the sorcerer and absolutely shred him, then used the Overrun strat to move back 18" back into the Malanthrope bubble, where he sat with Catalyst on him for another turn, felt like a real checkmate play. At some point you can just make a decision to cut him loose. He's killed some stuff, and it's going to take a ton of resources to kill him, and you can snag another good kill out of it, and force some fallbacks? Just throw him out there and let him go ham. He has some big dice so he can really surprise you. There's a lot of decision making that goes into him, and he felt nothing like the point and click of a Knight which almost plays itself. He can dart in and out of combat and look for smart ways to measure more efficiency out of his cost at pretty much every point of the game.

That's another strength of combined resiliency, T8, 24W, -1 to be shot from a Malanthrope, The Horror + Mass Hypnosis cast on the units you think have the best chance of hurting him, Catalyst, and now this new adaptation to give him a '1+ save', and if you want? (although you lose it when you charge, that's fine). Then the range he can threaten, as well as the ability to double fight (which provides a LOT more than just the ability to hit twice, although it does effectively double his damage output if used right) are options that just aren't available to a Knight. And then the Acid Spray makes him a much tougher prospect to charge - it was above average rolls, but he actually one shot a Slaanesh Elixir DP that made it to charge range, and thats the risk you are forcing on them in a dice game. He's a bit cheaper than most Knights, and has his own set of strengths, while Knights have theirs. I played an MC heavy list, when I was originally bringing him the idea was to hope that my opponents focused on him and let the other guys roll through, but he more than pulled his weight in other regards. Just make sure you have the CP to support him.

Where I go with Nids from here depends what else we get in Psychic Awakening, but I'll highly likely be putting a Hierodule back on the table considering how much this improves him.





On another note, the adaptive camoflage is also pretty good on Carnifexes. It happens pre-game when they are all one unit, so you can affect an entire brood of 3 with.

3x 1+ save, -1 to hit Jorm Carnifexes is going to be better than any of our (current) Warlord traits. Maybe good with HVC and Deathspitters since you don't really want to be running them. As I said, the Dynamic Camo is good.

@Nitro
Swarmlord plus scythed hierodule, plus you need to not fail onslaught. Then if all works, fight twice and onslaught.
Yeah ok it will do some damage.

So you run also a malanthrope, which I also really like (pity it is FW), but what else do you bring with those more or less 1200 points left ?

You don’t need Swarmy (I didn’t take him, the other guy did though). I actually decided against the Swarmlord, people get their heckles up when they see him everyone knows he can send units shooting up the field. Even the best players get caught off guard by units they are unfamiliar with and talk about this often in event rundowns, so I wanted to leverage this aspect of the Hierodule. Still, it’s good synergy there if you want to take one.

Onslaught isn’t some risk that you take every time you activate. It’s a great spell and it’s not like it’s costing points, I’m taking Neurothropes regardless. Rerolls on the cast makes it pretty reliable, but you hedge your bets and have back up plans. You adapt to the matchup, I actually opted for Psychic Scream most games and only took Onslaught a couple of times. Once to quickly push down a nasty gunline in case I saw a good opportunity to do it (which I did), and another time I actually cast it on a unit of Termagants to get the 360 surround on a midfield unit. If I failed it’s unlikely, but I had a back up option, spend the CP to double fight and clear the unit, then Overrun back protection. You want to avoid advancing the Hierodule where you can anyway because his flamer is quite nice. Don’t look at Onslaught as some inbuilt risk that the Hierodule has to take just to work because it's not like that at all, look at it as a great option you CAN go for when you feel you want to take that chance (and it's one with pretty good odds honestly). A good grip on the flow of the game and knowledge of your enemies capabilities will help you know when to do that. 40k is about taking measured risks, and having more options is never bad. If you keep creative and look for the smart plays I think the Hierodule is better than the data sheet suggests in the hands of a good player.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

addnid wrote:

So you run also a malanthrope, which I also really like (pity it is FW), but what else do you bring with those more or less 1200 points left ?

I mean when I run big bugs, I like the Malanthrope a lot, so I'm taking him regardless. I also think taking a Hierodule is also best taken in a Nidzilla style list, so if they can dedicate what it takes to bring him down the other guys get a pass for at least one turn, to help them get set-up in range. And of course a bunch of gants for scoring. This is exactly what the other Hierodule guy did too, Malanthrope and Nidzilla.


I personally ran some Acid Spray Tyrannofex because I thought they would synergise well with the Hierodule, and a bunch of Dakkafex to clear chaff. It only took a turn or so to get in threat range, as the Tyrannofex were Kraken with Adrenal Glands and thus we basically moved at their speed, which was about 12-13 inches. Basically every enemy army needs to come into the middle of the field in some form or another in 8th, but even when that doesn't happen, its only a turn or so before you're in their face and plus you own the board.

I was expecting some scary melee at this event, and when you have a malanthrope with brickwall in front of it consisting of the 2x Tyrannofex and a Hierodule in a "|A.B.A|" sort of line, well that gave up nothing that they can use to avoid the Hieorodule overwatch by charging and piling in on him - as the Tyrannofex Acid Spray is almost just as scary. To expand, my worry was some smart ass will be 9" out from the Hierodule with a Skullreaver Daemon Prince but 6" out from the guy on his left - declare a charge on both outside of acid spray range, make the easy roll to get in but then pile in to the Hierodule and go for breakfast. I didn't want to give this up for free, I wanted them to push them into paying the cost of eating his overwatch if they wanted to get in on him in most cases, as I think it's one of the other strengths of the model. This decision may have ended up paying off dividends for me (the Hierodule overwatch literally 1 shot the Slaanesh blender-DP and a ChainLord in the same turn, and I also dunked on another guy using Warptime on a Skullreaver DP), but I'm not sure it's even necessary.

While my list worked enough to get me where I got, in hindsight I'm not sure that this was the perfect mix, some AP would be nice and Exocrines are looking good (the other guy took them too), so I may swap the Tyrannofex out. It might mean I get shredded up by some galaxy brain with a big axe some game, but at least I'd have better answers to the Centurions and Aggressors out there menacing my meta.

Thanks Nitro, I really appreciate the writeup. I've got a Scythed Hierodule on the way so I'll be making use of that advice.

I guess there was a Q&A on the new nids. Some things mentioned:

We will have a stratagem for additional trait / adaptation.

we were promised buffs for monsters, for example a stratagem for certain of them.

There will be two different adaptation tables - separately for monsters, separately for infantry.
one of the adaptations for the infantry - ignore -1 and -2 AP.

There was a mention of 6" heroic and mortal wounds from the shooting, but you're not sure who it is for, apparently for the monsters.

Confirmed that there will be several pages of stratagems.

Also a game vs World Eaters is going on the twitch channel to explain the new stuff.

 nintura wrote:
I guess there was a Q&A on the new nids. Some things mentioned:

We will have a stratagem for additional trait / adaptation.

we were promised buffs for monsters, for example a stratagem for certain of them.

There will be two different adaptation tables - separately for monsters, separately for infantry.
one of the adaptations for the infantry - ignore -1 and -2 AP.

There was a mention of 6" heroic and mortal wounds from the shooting, but you're not sure who it is for, apparently for the monsters.

Confirmed that there will be several pages of stratagems.

Also a game vs World Eaters is going on the twitch channel to explain the new stuff.

Finally something good!

But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

 nintura wrote:
But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

GW style. spam battallions os name of the game

 nintura wrote:
But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

Asking the real question here

Assuming no mistakes, new stratagem is unit counts as not having moved for purposes of its shooting.

Voracious Ammunition: if target has taken damage from the unit with this adaptation, roll a d6, on a 2+ it suffers d3 MW

new stratagem - Symbiotic Devastion: make a unit count as stationary and +1 to hit (1CP)

Kraken-specific psychic power: Psychic Lure: cast on enemy unit, all your units can reroll charges against the affected unit

Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/57528/blood-angles-psychic-awakening-expectations?page=28#ixzz66hPwuec9

Can I put that stratagem on something that advanced and then shoot Heavy weapons?

We don't know yet. It's also possible it will be restricted to Exocrines, the design team talked about stratagems for most monsters, and this was one of them.

We will know more tomorrow when the video reviews come out.

 Emicrania wrote:

 nintura wrote:
But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

Asking the real question here

Not like we cant spam them. Its what, 279 for 2 neuros and 3 rippers, both of which are useful units

C4790M wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 nintura wrote:
But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

Asking the real question here

Not like we cant spam them. Its what, 279 for 2 neuros and 3 rippers, both of which are useful units

279 is a lot in a 1k army that tries to spam units

If we really get a stratagem to fight on top bracket, i'm a happy bug.

The awful wound chart of the toxycrene was the worst problem of that model, which otherwise is an incredibly good beatstick for the new point cost.

By the way, if we are not taking our (awful) warlord traits, does this mean that i can nominate a spore mine as my warlord without losing anything and never give my opponent the chance to slay my warlord?

There are no missions currently in CA18 that require to score with your warlord. Got to see the new CA19 missions though.


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If kroots are really going to 4 points, i PRETEND 4 points hgaunts.

C4790M wrote:

 Emicrania wrote:

 nintura wrote:
But why does everything cost stratagems? We don't get many in the first place unless you spam battalions.

Asking the real question here

Not like we cant spam them. Its what, 279 for 2 neuros and 3 rippers, both of which are useful units

The value of Rippers really starts to fall off after the first two or so units, you generally want more bodies aka Termagants.

Also three Neurothropes are great but that’s like a battalion and a half, and that’s the start point for Nids. Old One Eye to finish battalion two I guess and then there’s no other Tyranid HQ’s I want to waste points on, I’d look to GSC for that third one.

2 Primes and 3 min warriors are 302 if you go scythe happy. 374 with cannons and spitters. 396 if you also add swords.

Could be a possibility for another battalion.

 catbarf wrote:
Thanks Nitro, I really appreciate the writeup. I've got a Scythed Hierodule on the way so I'll be making use of that advice.

You're welcome, it's all just my opinion, but please let me know how you go.

So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.

They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.

Power swords wielding Hormas can be a thing now.

We have it all compiled over at the tyranid hive. Am I allowed to post the link?

Surprise Ambush 1 CP
Lictor entirely on or within a terrain feature and also arriving from deep striking that very turn gets +1" to charge and can't be shot in Overwatch


Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/57577/compiled-leaks-reference-credit-kurtangle2?page=1#ixzz66luLnjbp


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:
So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.

They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.

Power swords wielding Hormas can be a thing now.

You also lose your re-roll to misses for Hydra if you pick the 6++ for all terms, horms, and gargoyles.

So, T8 spam better with jorm, kraken, or leviathan?

Battalion/w
2x nuero
2x ripper
1x ripper x4/w spinefists
2x Tervigon/w spray

Fortification/w
Sporocyst

Super Heavy/w
3x scythed heirodule

Well, with Jorm, you can get those heirodules down to a 1+ save

Only two I believe. And looks like that one is infantry only. Bad wording on the warhammer community article.

Now i understand why hormagaunts are still 5 points.

Spamming them is now something that can actually work really well.
They have the means to hurt and the means to get in contact with the target.

My lists will probably start with 3x30 of those lovely little critters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thought.

A trygon prime with the adaptation +1/+1/+1 and 3d6 charge relic is a monster (pun intended).

Put him in a detachment with +1 to hit on charge and you have 7 attacks hitting on 2, Str 8 (reroll all wounds for 1 CP), AP-4, Damage D6+1. Can fight again for 3 CP. Can fight again if killed (hits on 4+).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, a tyrannocyte with the MW on ranged casualties adaptation becomes an horrid thing to face.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly i don't get the negativity around PA3.

I really think that we are marine level with these changes, i'm not joking. We are too fast, we hit too hard, we are cheap enough to overload with threats, we negate overwatch...

Just a list with 300 hormagaunts without any additional thought will be competitive.

The problem with 300 HG you will never do anything after T2/3 because you LL get clocked out.
I play 192 models with orks, 115 grots that just need positioning for grot shield, and, even with movement trays, I barely make it .

Tyran wrote:
So while the book is mostly a side upgrade, spam Hormas.

They have a stratagem that gives them 1 ap, a custom trait that gives 1 ap to scything talons and another that 1 ap for outnumbering the enemy. And I guess 1 ap for that kill something stratagem.

Power swords wielding Hormas can be a thing now.

Hydra Horm rush?

Isn't the Mawloc is worth anything now? +2MW for 1CP and +1S and +1AP

 Emicrania wrote:
The problem with 300 HG you will never do anything after T2/3 because you LL get clocked out.
I play 192 models with orks, 115 grots that just need positioning for grot shield, and, even with movement trays, I barely make it .

So do I, and just like you I barely make it. 300, even just 200 Hormas will take longer and trays for them are next to impossible with the talons sticking out. But a 90 horma battalion stacking ap2 on them sounds ok. Though when you math it out 60 attacks hitting on 4s is not great. How can we make em hit on 3s ? They are garbage otherwise at killing no ? Ok they reroll ones but that ain’t so great. You do what 13 wounds to a toughness 4 or 5 unit with a full 60 strong unit ? Mmmm

Kraken is just better than any of the custom Hive Fleets. This is the worst part of the reveal but whatever.

The new Psyker Relic is great. I couldn't invent a better relic honestly.

The adaptations are quite good. A solid buff to Old One Eye on the MC is just a really safe solid use of the warlord trait, and beyond that there's a ton of other application.

Some of the new strats are really good. Some are a bit bad but thats okay, there's a lot of them.

This has mostly served to make some worse units better, they avoided making the good stuff better in most cases. There is no real chance that this takes us to marine tier but it definitely helps vs the rest of the game. Until they get their Psychic Awakening at least.