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2020/07/12 18:34:33
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The changes to character protection appears to hurt us the least of any faction. Malanthropes and Neurothropes are 1. fairly durable, 2. babysitting something high priority, and 3. behind a gaunt screen that is keeping smash captains away from whatever unit #2 happens to be. In 8th you lost them after the screen got killed and the shooting thing they were babysitting was dead. I can't really see that changing all that much. Primes normally sit in the middle of a Warrior or may 'fex blob. Again, they died when the blob died, that won't be much different. Other than that, our characters are MC's, who it doesn't impact and Deathleaper maybe?
Speaking of monsterous characters, sword and cannon flyrants might be worth looking at. Their weakness was you lose two a turn and it takes three turns to do anything with them. With smaller boards and reduced lethality (terrain changes + fewer guns from increased points) they will have a better chance of getting into sweet sweet CC. The changes to blast make HVC's and stranglethorns interesting again. There is an relic somewhere than makes one of them a flamer at 12? (I'm not going to bother to look it up at the moment) inches, which has potential. Flat damage from the swords makes them attractive in a primaris heavy environment as well. All of this will of course be point dependent, but I can see running triple flyrant again.
Smaller board sizes make outflanking devilgants and 'stealers feel juicy. It is going to be hard for someone to be out of threat range of either of those units, and even if they are, you've pressured them into very limited movement options, which is advantageous. Someone staying away from an objective because they don't want to be eaten by 'stealers makes it easier to out score them. I'm already planning to allocate a CP for somebody outflanking, I just haven't decided who yet.
The changes to blast don't hurt as much as some people seem to think. 30 'gaunts in Malanthrope protection died in one turn vs most armies, they will still die in one turn vs most armies. The tools to kill hordes were already in the game, and used against us. If people start bringing plasma again, they are welcome to point it at my 'gaunts. If you wan't to run 300 hormies I honestly think it will work just as well - and have just the same issues - as it did in 8th - you won't get shot off the table but you won't do much but stand on objectives and remove models until the clock runs out.
I don't think the casualty removal/no conga lines thing will hurt that much either. Zippering big screening squads isn't hard. Normally when I had odd lines going everywhere it was because I was trying to block off deep strike locations and sticking offshoots off my big units out to block as much as possible. WIth smaller boards, that will be easier to do. Our CC units either don't care cause monster, or want to be packed in to maximize damage anyway. If you need to leave a fishhook or chain out their to tag something or block a movement/deep strike, those guys were going to die as soon as they got looked at anyway. That is the joy of playing bugs - losing 30 guys and shrugging because of course you lost them and you don't care, you expected that. Or better yet, losing 25 and laughing as they have to waste a unit finishing them off.
If it doesn't get faq'd away, the repeat smite is going to be nice. 18 zoeys and some Exocrines was already strong, because 18 zoeys takes substantial work to kill. I don't think blast impacts them too hard, 'cause 3++, but after the math that was posted upthread I'm very open to trying 4 or 5 model units.
Hive Guard are going to be insane, even after the points hike. I don't think it is going to be possible to get 18 zoeys and 12 Hive Guard in the same build, because that's likely going to be 2/3s of your points and filling out the brigade ain't free, but mayyyyyybe specialty detachment + battalion can do it.
My first game in 9th is going to be exactly like my first game in 8th. I'm going to take 3 Hive Tyrants, 3 Trygons, the Harpy I scratch built out of a Trygon and a Warhammer Fantasy dragon. Then I'm going to add in whatever else I need to make it a legal list. I'm going to throw all of that at a local tournament, because eventually they will release an edition where I can win events with my three favorite models. After that I'm going to spend hours in battlescribe and reading discussions until I find a build that I like, and I'm going to do everything in my power to win a GT with it. I've been trying since 5th ed without at top ten yet, but I'm going to try.
Tyranids have never been an easy faction. They never will be. We don't get easy win buttons. We don't get models every week. We lose games because we made a tiny mistake that only our faction can make involving a rule only we have. We savor every victory because we earn them. 9th edition will change things. It probably won't make it easy for Tyranids, but no edition ever does. We put in more effort than any other faction in order to figure out how to make our bugs work, then we give people nasty surprises.
Well said! No need to cry tears over wounds not yet taken,
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2020/07/12 18:57:25
Subject: Re:Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The Rupture Cannon is mentioned to be 20, not 12, sadly. I really hope these points increases don't hurt the Tyranids too much. I'm playing Sisters myself and they seem to come out rather well. The friend I play against most has Tyranids and the last few games were just not fair. He was struggling a lot against the new codex Sisters.
2020/07/13 12:13:47
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: When reading all this, remember that multi shot weapons have been nerfed in general.
Both Heavy bolters and Disintegrators got quite the price hike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 12:29:54
2020/07/13 12:31:20
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
2020/07/13 12:42:57
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
In line with other increases in the other factions. Only the Mawloc stings a bit.
Nobody played those. No-fracking-body. And no, not everything got increases. Land raiders went down in cost. Defilers stayed the same. So did plenty other things.
Price increases should not be in vacuum based on a brainless algorithm.
14000
15000
4000
2020/07/13 12:59:43
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Haruspex and Acidfex actually get a lot from 9th, so it makes sense that they are going up. Mawloc is a bit strange, but they are excellent for some secondaries, so I could see a logic.
2020/07/13 13:02:19
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Spoletta wrote: I never played them, so I dodged that bullet.
I was looking for something to murder the heavy infantry that was on the points in the middle, and I can't avoid to notice how sexy the Trygon is at that role for 130 points.
Aren't they 150pts now? 120 model, 30 for two pairs of massive ScyTals.
In line with other increases in the other factions. Only the Mawloc stings a bit.
Nobody played those. No-fracking-body. And no, not everything got increases. Land raiders went down in cost. Defilers stayed the same. So did plenty other things.
Price increases should not be in vacuum based on a brainless algorithm.
Nah, see, Spoletta's going to tell us that the Haruspex is actually good, we're just using him wrong.
I'm probably being wayy too salty, but this just grinds my gears. As you mentioned, GW largely did spare crappy units from further nerfs with other armies. They didn't for Nids. We draw the short straw again on our crappiest units. I don't know if folks remember but when 8th launched, the Haruspex was an eye watering 276 points. I guess we're lucky they didn't do that again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: Haruspex and Acidfex actually get a lot from 9th, so it makes sense that they are going up. Mawloc is a bit strange, but they are excellent for some secondaries, so I could see a logic.
Speak of the devil! What does the Haruspex get in 9th, pray tell? How do melee monstrous creatures change besides a 5'' vertical engagement?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/13 13:02:53
2020/07/13 13:50:43
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
Fexes and Tyrants didn't have this problem.
Beasts like that are shaping up to be vital elements in the new edition, at least according to the first battle reports. Remember that you need to capture and hold.
And then there is the 5" vertical engagement.
All of this is purely speculation naturally, but I see more purpose to them compared to 8th.
2020/07/13 14:04:07
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
If someone just picked up a Start Collecting box, how would you build it? With 9th and the new points in mind.
Broodlord, not a lot of options.
Genestealers? Barebones rending claws looks good to me. Any of the whistles and bells worth it? Flesh hooks seem like they would actually be a drawback. If you are lucky, you might kill one model, which might make your charge harder. Acid Maw seems more worthwhile. Better AP all the time for no cost? Is there a “only bite once” rule somewhere?
With the big bug there are more options. Multiple monsters, multiple options. Thoughts?
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
Fexes and Tyrants didn't have this problem.
Beasts like that are shaping up to be vital elements in the new edition, at least according to the first battle reports. Remember that you need to capture and hold.
And then there is the 5" vertical engagement.
All of this is purely speculation naturally, but I see more purpose to them compared to 8th.
Dude, I'm 99% sure the Haruspex is less than 5'' tall. I don't have one next to me but I don't think that Obscuring helps him at all.
Also, the Haruspex is tough enough and has lots of wounds but the first part of Capture and Hold is Capture. He certainly does not have the offensive output to do that part.
2020/07/13 14:08:46
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
LOS or not, a slow cc monster deployed back and thus forced to walk around a ruin fills no function in an army.
2020/07/13 14:57:02
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Spoletta wrote: The fact that it's quite tall, like the Trygon.
Under old rules, even ITC ones, he was almost impossible to obscure, short of a really huge LoS blocker. Now any 5" ruin is infinitely tall, so he can hide behind it.
LOS or not, a slow cc monster deployed back and thus forced to walk around a ruin fills no function in an army.
Yes, I could see that as an issue. His mobility is too low a lot of times.
2020/07/13 14:57:19
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
Niiai wrote: I would not recomend the start collecting box ar the moment.
Mawlocks, Trygon and Trygon prime where very bad. In 9th they became mych worse.
Broodloord and GS where very good. But with the point increase I am having a hard time seeing them being used.
And then there are no models left in the box.
That’s fair, but what’s the least worst option to build them? Assume someone likes the looks of the models, and wants to field them.
I have not seen how the forge world stuff is in 9th edition. But if you have a trygon and a tyranofex kit you can kitbash a very descent titan. Also, there where soem play to the trygon before. Not much, but a little.
I stil think broodlord is fine if the game shifts over to elite units.
Nevelon wrote: If someone just picked up a Start Collecting box, how would you build it? With 9th and the new points in mind.
Broodlord, not a lot of options.
Genestealers? Barebones rending claws looks good to me. Any of the whistles and bells worth it? Flesh hooks seem like they would actually be a drawback. If you are lucky, you might kill one model, which might make your charge harder. Acid Maw seems more worthwhile. Better AP all the time for no cost? Is there a “only bite once” rule somewhere?
With the big bug there are more options. Multiple monsters, multiple options. Thoughts?
Acid Maws are a given on all the GS that can take it. Don't take other options, they are already quite costly and fragile.
For the monster, I would go with the Trygon because IMHO the model is cooler, but the best on the table will probably be the mawlock in 9th. He can appear from nowhere and constest a point while maybe also Repairing a Teleport homer.
2020/07/13 15:15:07
Subject: Codex Tyranids Tactica: The Shadow Falls, The Hive Fleets Gather. Worlds Devoured
The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
The Trygon (and the prime) seem a lot more killy for the points invested, but the shooting, while there, is not that impressive, so they need to make that charge. But seem very blender like once they get there.
Little buddies in the tunnels might not be as important now that we can just reserve things. But could be a way of getting some ObSec downfield? Or just some dakka.
Nevelon wrote: The pin point DS of the Mawloc looks tempting. He’s going to show up, do 2-4 MWs, and then be menacing. Might be real good for secondaries, as it’s going to be harder to screen against him.
To correct you there he will look menacing. He will not be menasing. After the innisiatl MW pop up he is either ignored or dies the round after. If he is ignored he is not so good.
Why you say? What the mawlock do good is have a lot of wounds. But it is a qualaty that is not appreciated in 8th edition, and probably 9th edition also. S7 T6 3+ is quite bad. The real kick is that while he has some S he does not have any good weapon. He will scratch paint on space marine armour, but nothing else.
Sorry to be harsh. That being said the stratagem from BOB makes his pop up attack a lot better.
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