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C4790M wrote:
How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?

Gargoyles are really good now with deepstrike.

Just remember Devilgants need synapse within 24" to operate at full effect - a Trygon Prime may still have a role.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the Sporefield stratagem. I used the old Sporefield a lot in 7th ed, and now with 8th ed it's potentially a powerful tool that we've been missing in the index - 'Infiltrate'. The power to say 'no' to deepstriking units and push back first turn charges.

Would be nice to have a clarification on the timings of the Sporefield strategem - at the point you decide whether or not to use it, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.

 N.I.B. wrote:
Just remember Devilgants need synapse within 24" to operate at full effect - a Trygon Prime may still have a role.

One of the things I'm most excited about is the Sporefield stratagem. I used the old Sporefield a lot in 7th ed, and now with 8th ed it's potentially a powerful tool that we've been missing in the index - 'Infiltrate'. The power to say 'no' to deepstriking units and push back first turn charges.

Would be nice to have a clarification on the timings of the Sporefield strategem - at the point you decide whether or not to use it, do you know if you go first or second? Because if you don't know if you go first, it's useless. You take this strategem to box in the opponent. But if your opponent go first he will just charge the screen (which has to be 12" away) and your sporefield just helped him to move even further, in exchange for a few mortal wounds.

Also, when your opponent has 'infiltrating' units of his own, like Nurglings - who gets to put his unit down first? That could also make a Sporefield useless.

Even if it comes after infiltrating units, and i think that this is the case, you can still block deepstrikers.

C4790M wrote:
How do we all feel about buying “bad” units to fill out brigades? HQ, Troops and HS all have stellar units that are cheap (Neuro/Rippers/Biovore), but the cheap Elite and FA units are pretty meh. For Elite we have Lictors (probably the better choice with their stratagems) and Pyrovores and for FA we have Mucolids if we want to be fairly useless and Gargoyles if we want a unit that can do something. Thoughts?

I love the idea of spore mines and the other ones, whos name escapes me atm. Such a weird unit.

Lictors and Biovores are obvious choices. Gargoyles are great models and seem more useful. Stuff that deep strikes is good because it doesnt feel like you're giving up first blood so easily.

I just don't see the point in making a brigade unless you're astra militarum. It's too expensive.

For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy

Which is a fraction of the brigade in the first place, and yields the same CP. And if you really want fast/elite/etc you can still bring them, since the battalion is fairly open. Additionally this allows you to have 2 hive fleets if you're willing to risk the synapse coverage. Rerolling 1s in the shoot phase can be deadly if you're bring the heavy shooting fex (carn / tyranno).

I just don't see the point of a brigade for Tyranids either.

But what I Want to do with it, is looking over to see three x20 blocks of Beserkers, figering Alpha Legion, and being able to blunt his 1st turn charge with some MWs also I believe that lets me spend CP to interupt so I can fight first because he already charged the sporefield...

 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy

That is 7 command points though?

 Niiai wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy

That is 7 command points though?

And a Brigade would be 9+3= 12...?

pinecone77 wrote:

 Niiai wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:


For 9 command points, you can make a battalion-spearhead.

3HQ
3Troop
3Heavy

That is 7 command points though?

And a Brigade would be 9+3= 12...?

Correct.

I think I'm going to be testing a Brgade+ try for a min cost Brigade, then try upgrades, like a Supreme Command of x5 Neurothropes for Smite Spam. Or x3 Winged Tyrants for an winged attack force.

 Marmatag wrote:
I like the idea here. My only problem is the logistics of an army with this many bodies - getting 90 hormagants in range of synapse but also in such a way where they can fight, and be useful, would be challenging.

Any decent imperium list is going to have a ton of mortars. And guard lists will have taurox primes and wyverns. Being super depending on T3 bodies with no save is a big concern to me. I wouldn't be concerned with grav shooting, or marine shooting. If you can handle razorbacks, you can handle marines no problem.

On that note, I would go full Jormungandr. I know you lose out on Kronos. And I do agree that smite is going to be nerfed. I heard that it would be 1 mortal wound instead of d3. Although 3 cast limit sounds more likely.

Thinking like:
2x 30 Hormagants
1x 30 Dakkagants
1x 20 Genestealers

As the core of my chaff. I like the idea of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, and Hive Tyrants to do some of the heavier lifting. With cover tyranid warriors might be worth it, too. I would still run 1 Trygon.

With 12" and that many HQs, synapse should never be a problem. You can easily cover the entire width of the board with 4x synapse characters, and every list should have that.

Taurox Prime are a big problem for us. Swapping in a Malanthrope and daisy chaining makes a big difference, as does Jormungandr or Leviathan. Conversely, If we go first, we have several available tools that give us decent odds on first turn charges, and weapon systems that will completely erase conscript screens. I'm not sold on us being able to counter a proper IG army atm, but I think Eldar may be the scissors to their paper, while we'll be the rock.

There's a lot to consider in that matchup, and both armies have a ton of flexibility in their list building.

Yeah, in regards to CP: I'm not sure what I was thinking. It's been a long day.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I like the idea here. My only problem is the logistics of an army with this many bodies - getting 90 hormagants in range of synapse but also in such a way where they can fight, and be useful, would be challenging.

Any decent imperium list is going to have a ton of mortars. And guard lists will have taurox primes and wyverns. Being super depending on T3 bodies with no save is a big concern to me. I wouldn't be concerned with grav shooting, or marine shooting. If you can handle razorbacks, you can handle marines no problem.

On that note, I would go full Jormungandr. I know you lose out on Kronos. And I do agree that smite is going to be nerfed. I heard that it would be 1 mortal wound instead of d3. Although 3 cast limit sounds more likely.

Thinking like:
2x 30 Hormagants
1x 30 Dakkagants
1x 20 Genestealers

As the core of my chaff. I like the idea of Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes, and Hive Tyrants to do some of the heavier lifting. With cover tyranid warriors might be worth it, too. I would still run 1 Trygon.

With 12" and that many HQs, synapse should never be a problem. You can easily cover the entire width of the board with 4x synapse characters, and every list should have that.

Taurox Prime are a big problem for us. Swapping in a Malanthrope and daisy chaining makes a big difference, as does Jormungandr or Leviathan. Conversely, If we go first, we have several available tools that give us decent odds on first turn charges, and weapon systems that will completely erase conscript screens. I'm not sold on us being able to counter a proper IG army atm, but I think Eldar may be the scissors to their paper, while we'll be the rock.

There's a lot to consider in that matchup, and both armies have a ton of flexibility in their list building.

I don't disagree here.

I like the idea of some big bads to be more "take all comers" and have a shot against lists that lean on the guard but try to do more. I don't think against straight up IG we stand much of a chance, although I still haven't seen the codex yet so who knows.

I like the idea of the Swarmlord, and other melee big bads to deal with IG. They tend to be fairly clustered.

I could easily see my list featuring 30x Hormagants, 30x Devilgants, 20x genestealers, and a Swarmlord + Broodlord as the basis for my brigade.

So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid size x3, three Broods of Rippers

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending" this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....

pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....

I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.

 Insectum7 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.



Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....

I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.

It bypasses defenses and it overflows... so for example you shoot a Lascannon at conscripts and roll a 6 for damage, thats one dead hero of the empire. roll 3 MW and three heroes are made....


Late entry: Also consider that most things that Smite can also Cast. Psychic Scream, then Smite for example...also it looks like morale might make a comeback, so things like Horror, and Terrify might be "things"

Spamming smite + small guns fire and lots of bodies (devilgaunts + tervigons + zoanthropes) could lend you to shooting awya chaff and then try to smite the big targets.

Probably best vs really big things and worse vs rhinoes.

Ah, forgot about skyslasher, shame they’re so expensive on forgeworld. Any tips on converting some?

 Niiai wrote:
Spamming smite + small guns fire and lots of bodies (devilgaunts + tervigons + zoanthropes) could lend you to shooting awya chaff and then try to smite the big targets.

Probably best vs really big things and worse vs rhinoes.

Yeah vs Rhinos I think surrounding it with Hormies is out "best" solution. It really will "shine" vs Biggies, but Primarchs and Knights exist, so.

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
It says in its rules Living Bombs: "If you are playing matched play games, the creation of new Spore Mines is free, and Spore Mine's points cost does not come out of your pool of reinforcement points."

Clearly this is not referring to a new full size unit. The wording may allow it in the new codex, but I would not be surprised to see it FAQ'd away.

When a biovore shoots it's gun it creates a new unit of spore mines. The size of the unit doesn't matter/is irrelevant. It creates a new unit.

I understand what it is technically saying. I also know it was written before there was a stratagem for pregame units. I think it's reasonable to expect a FAQ, assuming it's not made clear somewhere in the codex.

I've been out giving candy just came back, its 3CP!!!!! 3!!! not 1, not 2 but 3!!! they are free.........

 Insectum7 wrote:

pinecone77 wrote:
So, not knowing final costs, a "spitball" Brigade could be...


HQ: NEURO x3

Troops: Gaunts in mid sise x3

FA: Gargoyles in min pkgs

Heavy: couple of Mawlocks, and a Brood of Screamer Killers

Elite: say Zoey Broods x3? for example....

Looks like it would run 1500, to 1600 or so "depending this is a Fearsome Smite spam army, with 12 CP's Add a Supreme Command of x5 Neuros, and you're pretty well done, and get annother CP.

Thats what 11 sources of Smite? Use the anti Psycher Fleet just for laughs? I'd look at a defencive Fleet aspect for the maximum survival.....

I confess, I don't see the appeal in spamming Smite, given that it hits the closest target it seems pretty defensible.

It's the Malefic Lord / Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker strategy. But these units are brutally undercosted, with malefic lords being 4++ and being 30 points. Astra Militarum psykers are 40 points.

This makes it worthwhile. But at 70 points? Not the same value.

I would rather have units that can be more effective. One or two of these sure, since they can be cheap synapse beacons. But, i'd rather have 2 of these, and a hive tyrant, than 5 of these.

C4790M wrote:
Ah, forgot about skyslasher, shame they’re so expensive on forgeworld. Any tips on converting some?

I took the tentaclids from the Hive Crone and put them on small flight base pins. Then I magnetised these tentaclids on normal Ripper Swarm bases. Its more like a kind of token, that shows "this unit is flying" rather than whole unit, but until now, noone complained and you can distinguish them from normal ripper swarms very well.

You could also make whole squads of tentaclids... but its not that easy to get them anywhere separate.

 Marmatag wrote:

It's the Malefic Lord / Astra Militarum Primaris Psyker strategy. But these units are brutally undercosted, with malefic lords being 4++ and being 30 points. Astra Militarum psykers are 40 points.

This makes it worthwhile. But at 70 points? Not the same value.

I would rather have units that can be more effective. One or two of these sure, since they can be cheap synapse beacons. But, i'd rather have 2 of these, and a hive tyrant, than 5 of these.

I think this is exactly right.

The two other major draws of the neurothrope are that it is our cheapest HQ, and SITW is one of the only unlimited use tools in the game to counter smite spam. Plus, you still need psykers to counter smite. If you dont intend to use Kronos, I can very easily see taking 3 in a supreme detachment, or a single flyrant+3 heavies in order to get access to the Kronos strat and possibly WL trait.

I'm hoping the first rumor was right at 45 pts, because then we'll have a very viable smite spam platform, but I'm expecting it to be 70.

The nerothrope might be 70 points, but rumors say cast 2 deny 2 with synapse and sitw with a 3++ (if its stat line stays the same). A supreme command detachment made up of 4 neuros and a malanthrope would be a rock solid foundation for ANY nid list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact. If neros are characters (i expect they will be) i cant imagine why anyone would bring zoeys anymore.

 Lance845 wrote:
The nerothrope might be 70 points, but rumors say cast 2 deny 2 with synapse and sitw with a 3++ (if its stat line stays the same). A supreme command detachment made up of 4 neuros and a malanthrope would be a rock solid foundation for ANY nid list.

If you take no other tyranid psykers, I would agree with that. But the brood lord is just so good....it's hard to justify not taking a few of them. I think that once GSC gets their own codex, we'll have more appealing options because we'll want to take GSC Broodlords more...but currently there is (IMO) not enough of a reason to take them because the buffs don't criss cross and the GSC stealers aren't good enough to justify taking a GSC detachment.

I dream of a world where both Nid and GSC stealers work together in harmony, and I can take Broodlords from both armies. So many good psychic powers for both armies.

I agree broodlords are good. I just think 4 neros and a malanthrope, regardless of what else you take, is the most durable and best synaprtic web we have ever seen.

Ever.

 Lance845 wrote:
I agree broodlords are good. I just think 4 neros and a malanthrope, regardless of what else you take, is the most durable and best synaprtic web we have ever seen.

Ever.

Nah that was 6th edition flyrants. But yeah that's a good strat.

And worth pointing out that broodlords can smite too. And are infinitely durable because they can't be targeted.

I just don't think the smite spam is cheap enough. If it was actually 45 points for a neurothrope, I would be lining up to buy 3. But at 70 points per...eh. I'll pass. Heck, a single zoan does the same thing, more or less, for 50 points, right? Is the neurothrope's second cast really worth that much when we likely will have other psykers in our list to cast those powers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and is there a fight twice for an infantry unit strat? I thought I saw that somewhere for 3 CP

Yeah but I think Zoans have a min squad size of 3.

Zoans have a min size of 3 and they can be targetted. Again, if nerothropes are characters, and they have been separated out as single hqs so they really should be, its a 3++ character that provides synapse, shadow in the warp, and can deny 2 powers, and cast 2. Just beinf a character makes the extra 25 points from one zoanthrope to a neurothrope worth it.

At 45 pts with 2 casts and 2 denies, Neurothropes are probably the best non-unique psykers in the game.

At 70 pts, they're still one of the best, but can't put out the volume of smite as the cheaper casters. Though they still deny at nearly the same efficiency (With the added -1 penalty within 18").

Depending on specifics, I think will be either very good, or best-in-game-conversation good.

That, of course, would also change with a smite nerf.

Neurothropes are going to be number 1 pick HQ's

Nids need them tho IMO, i feel we will need 2-3 fleets to form a good army, while 1 will be more fun/fluffy.

For 70pts they will be characters, there is no reason to increase the price by 40% unless it cant be target.