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Generally speaking it sounds like you're about right. The Termagaunt with fleshbourer has always been the backbone staple for gaunts and having a bulk of them is very typical.

Devourers are indeed a touch more specialist for gaunts; you're losing out on numbers for a better gun so typically you do tend to see them appear less. I'd still aim to build up to a good solid 30 core of them to start with.

Spinfists have always been the choice of those looking to go for mass numbers; its the swarming choice for gaunts as its typically the cheapest gun for them. That said I've never been overly impressed with them; good if you can swarm well and get up close.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


Venom cannon BS4 warrior averages .88 damage for 40 pts making 45 pts/w


Deathspitter BS4 warriors average .25 damage for 25 pts making 100 pts/w

If warrior venom cannons are indeed 20 pts, they are actually halfway cost-efficient guns, but you're still paying twice the cost of the gun+model (minimum) for the rest of the unit, so that immediately doubles their cost/wound and makes them one of the most inefficient.

Being inspiered by Shuppet I was planing on running 2 9 man warrior squads with 3 venom cannons each with a prime for the B3+. But venom cannon at 20 points? That is high. If the other (barbed strangler?) is just 5 points 36 range, on averdge 0,5 shots more then the deathsdpitter.Boneswords are only 2 now, that is sweet.

Advice would be apreciated. I am painted leviathan so I want a strong synapse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
That video is fething awful to watch.

There is a just awful ringing noise that fades in and out and listening to a person kind of monotone ramble off numbers is just.... dull.

Are spinefists (the gun) only 1 point? What about boneswords, only 2?

Well there are a few ways to play it.

For sure you want at least 1 unit of 20-30 with Devourers for the "can shoot 2x: and you can DS them.

A VERY popular thing to do is a Unit of 30 gants (10/20) Devilgants(10) and Gants(20) (Devilgants are Devourer gants nick name) and a Tervigon, the Devilgants in front and gants in back, if your gants get shot, take the Gants 1st and every turn get 10 normal gants back, they will literally have to kill over 20 in 1 phase to get to the Devil Gants.


You can also use Hormaganst and Genestealers for heavy hitters/tie ups, Hormaganst are some of the better tie up units in the game with their 6" consolidate.
Genestealers are very good anyways, and Hgants got a couple Stratagems to make them better.

 Lance845 wrote:
Im going to start turning the first post into the tactics thing that it will be going forward. It's a work in progress. Please feel free to PM me suggestions or content.

I would sugest starting a new thread. The first 18 pages areall wrong.

 Niiai wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Im going to start turning the first post into the tactics thing that it will be going forward. It's a work in progress. Please feel free to PM me suggestions or content.

I would sugest starting a new thread. The first 18 pages areall wrong.

Naw it'll be fine. There is some tactics stuff in there. And a month from now nobody is going to read the first 9 pages of a 40 page thread. All the most relevant information will be in the OP or the last 5-10 pages.

I have a question, if I have 2 Tyrannocytes with units inside does that count as 4 units set up in tactical reserves?

Each unit in reserves counts towards the 50% limit.

Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.

Mandragola wrote:
Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.

It would be Fun. Go go! Hive Fleet Behemeth!

Mandragola wrote:
Looking at this, I think there’s an army to be made based almost entirely around carnifexes. A spearhead of old one eye and 18 of his closest friends might be rather tricky to stop. Or you could have two or three neurothropes lurking around instead.

I’m not sure how sensible this is rally, but it would be quite a sight.

Army wide -1 to hit? Even with malanthropes you would need to have 9 of them in range.

Fun thing though, the zoanthrope character with hive crone could make for good synapse.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
So you want just 1 Trygon? Then a Prime b.c once you DS a Trygon your out of Synapse and you'll have a -2 to charge... and thats not good.

My thoughts would be 1 trygon prime instead of 2 trygons, if you're serious about DS i'd have a Jorm detachment for the tunnels follow strat.

My core list looks similar, i've grouped it into pools of units, as mixing and matching detachments and traits will depend entirely on what the entire codex has to offer.


HQ Pool
Swarmlord
Flying Hive Tyrant, melee
Flying Hive Tyrant, Dakka
Neurothrope
Broodlord

Troop Pool
30x Hormagants
30x Hormagants
30x Dakkagants
20x Genestealers
Ripper swarms to fill slots

Heavy Pool
Trygon Prime
Dakkafex
Dakkafex
Tyrannofex

Things I'm probably going to include but haven't figured out how yet:
Venomthropes
Tyranid Warriors
Hive Guards
Tervigon - I'm really tempted to include this guy, and set aside some points for spitting out terms. It doesn't cost much to get 10 or 20 termagants, and spitting them out at the right time could be useful.

I actually really like the acid tyrannofex but i need to see his points cost. 4d6 shots auto-hitting is pretty beast, especially if you can give him the +1 damage. I'm not sure if he can use the jorm strat to ds, but unloading him in your enemies face would really prevent counter-charges. Could be a situational play, but against assassins, berzerkers, he's a straight boss with those 4d6 dice.

Unless I see otherwise, i'll probably never be a hive that rerolls 1's. It just doesn't mesh well considering we already have those abilities on our guys. I also feel like getting baited into trying to use the zoanthrope stratagem is a colossal mistake.

If Matt is right about a BS3+ BLdev carnifex only costing 105 points, I don't see a single reason not to spam the gak out of those things.

That's 72 strength six shots, hitting on Three's for 315 points, all on a very durable platform.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
If Matt is right about a BS3+ BLdev carnifex only costing 105 points, I don't see a single reason not to spam the gak out of those things.

That's 72 strength six shots, hitting on Three's for 315 points, all on a very durable platform.

Yeah carnifexes are back, in a really big way. I think it might make sense to go with one set of scything talons and some kind of gun, many times over. It makes sense for them to be a threat in melee as well as shooting I think.

How is the distractiuon carnifex on mathammer? And how much more is the screamer killer to the distraction carnifex?

I'll have a bunch of mathhammer up in nice spreadsheets here in a few days.

Won a (4 man, lol) rtt today with index nids. Should have been a draw, my second opponent conceded even though he rightfully only had a minor loss.

Top table was against Magnus tzeentch daemons, the 1 objective in each deployment zone. I castled up with everything and reserved the trygons alone. Turn one he lit up about 30 hormagaunts with smite. I opened up on one flank with a unit of stealers/hormagaunts and spread out on the other flank with the other stealers/horms. The stealers/horms got stuck in on the left, blue horrors splitting into brims is absolutely infuriating to deal with, and I brought one of his heralds down a wound. Smite/exalted flamer brought the stealers down to 6, hgant down to 1, he lit up the other hgants with another 5 heralds and got them pretty low. Turn 3 my untouched stealers did a break out and advanced 6", with 14" of movement I smashed one of his 5 man herald bricks and totally obliterated the 4 I could reach.

Meanwhile my Trygons were up in his backfield working towards his objective. He couldn't push to my objective and still kill the Trygons, but brims/blues are just so fething durable for their points the Trygons were basically stomping through mud.

Game ended with Magnus sitting on my objective, with a 30 man dev gant squad wrapping him up and a broodlord in a figure 8 so he couldn't do anything to the broodlord and the gants were in synapse. I had some stealers on his but they were mired in like 40 horrors, with the trygons on the outside of the objective slicing their way in.

Genestealers killed like 7 of his heralds, carnifex performed like gak, and hormagaunts did their job of dying while tying things up and being obnoxious.

He had warlord+linebreaker and his objective
I had first blood+linebreaker and my objective

Was a really brutal game. He was super surprised by how fast the stealers moved and how hard they hit.

Could you post your full list?

Someone on thehivemind did points

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8HPLzLAWCdQjjX0AGs2DMzOIC8ioEC0pnWWWOUUCdk/edit#gid=2130982122

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Someone on thehivemind did points

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8HPLzLAWCdQjjX0AGs2DMzOIC8ioEC0pnWWWOUUCdk/edit#gid=2130982122

Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?

 Marmatag wrote:
Could you post your full list?

The lists, outside the guy I played for first, were not particularly hard.

Index Nids
Battalion
Broodlord
Broodlord

30x Horms
30x Horms
20x GS
20x GS
30x Devgants

Vanguard
Malanthrope

2x Dakkafex
2x Trygon with Adrenal glands

First game was vs footdar. He was doing his first set of games with it and mostly just testing stuff out. He had 15 dark reapers, eldrad, warlock cov, autarch, karandaras, 5 spectres, 5 scorps, 10 avengers, 2x5 rangers, ~8 banshees and 5 shield wraithguard. He actually was DQed because he had Eldrad in an Alaitoc detachment, but was using all the stratagems and traits. The game was a draw at the end of 3, but 1 more turn and he was about to be swept, I think. I had a trygon, stealers, broodlord and dakkagants all in position to roll through his backfield and I had initiative. I played very poorly, it should have been a complete route with ease if I had not started deployment by placing both hormagaunt units to one side of center. I always place them with flanking the center with space for a genestealer unit or carnifex, so I have flexibility. It ended leaving me with 30 hgants that did basically nothing for most of the game, left a unit of stealers deployed alone on my left flank. He used both ranger squads to deny deep strikes in the middle, and knowing he would do that, I should have placed all my GS on the board to use them as a slingshot. If I had deployed properly I could have hit the left rangers with 2x GS and 1x Hgant and then been ontop of his dark reapers in my turn 2. Instead I for some reason tried to refuse flank into his wraithguard, dire avengers and howling banshees. Ended up eating 15 dark reapers shooting for 3 full turns. It was really stupid of me, but the sheer assault power of the Genestealers+Broodlords combined with the massive tarpit capability of the hormagaunts kept me in the game. His +1 to psychic test stratagems was completely game changing, as was him using 1CP fire and fade as the 2CP fall back and shoot at full. They were completely innocent mistakes, but, they had a huge impact, and the DQ was by his own choice.

Second game was vs world eaters with 2x8 berserkers, 2x forgefiends, 20 bloodletters, 3x oblits, 6 bikers, bike lord, juggerlord, lord on foot and 10 malefic lords. He conceded top of 4, even though he could have played it out for a minor win. I used the hormagaunts to keep him boxed in and screen my stealers, then counter charged and obliterated stuff. I used 1 empty Trygon as a distraction to draw away 5 of his lords and the obliterators to a far flank, focused on pushing him away from the 2 (4 objectives at the ends of a + shape) objectives in my half of the board. The distraction Trygon pulled a lot of his forces to the left flank, then I was able to bring up the Termagants and second Trygon to cut them off from coming back across to mid-field, while my stealers worked on taking control of the objective on the far side of the board, and dakkafexes stomped around rolling terribly. At the top of 4 I was holding my two and I had a dakkafex and like 18 stealers on his north objective where he had ~5 bloodletters, 5 malefic lords (4 of which were weakened), foot lord and 2 forgefiends. I was going to gun down the bloodletters, and charge all the lords in one go, probably wiping them out and then consolidating into the forgefiends. I didn't really have the forces left to fight him off his last objective, but he was too far to get back to my side of the board and stop me from holding 3 to 1.

3rd game I covered.

My biggest take away was that if I had been playing codex Tyranids, all of those games would have gone VERY. VERY. VERY. differently. Numerous times I was hamstrung in my movement by the need to keep 8" synapse. Only once was I able to get an enemy within 8" SITW. Having deep striking flyrants would have been amazing. Any fleet trait would have been amazing (Particularly kraken, which I'm starting to lean very heavily towards). The more I play nids, and the more numbers I crunch, the more I'm thinking that putting 60 genestealers and 60 hormagaunts would be a completely legitimate core for a list. The Trygons are hard to measure... they hit like mack trucks and are super flexible, their durability is one of those things where if the opponent doesn't focus them, they will run amok, but they wither under serious pressure. I think they have a place in armies with deep striking flyrants, but I was consistently wishing I just had more genestealers. The 8" charge with them out of the hole, however, was used in every single game. Dakkagants are really nice, especially because people just don't want to waste firepower shooting them instead of genestealers, and meanwhile hormagaunts are just trolling around making friends with massive chunks of the enemy. Maybe 2 flyrants, 1 Trygon for dakkagants, and then lictors or Jormungandr raveners for 40-60 Genestealers. The Malanthrope is very, very hit or miss. Useless against dark reapers and smite spam, but actually helped keep up probably 10-15 hormagaunts/genestealers against the chaos player. It's a durable warlord that doesn't fold against any 100 pt deep striking disruption unit. I did wish I had more psykers/denies basically constantly though. Broodlords are just too fething expensive for 1cast/deny. I think I'll always keep 1 if I use stealers, but I'd rather have 13 more genestealers, or a neurothrope and 7 stealers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Someone on thehivemind did points

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8HPLzLAWCdQjjX0AGs2DMzOIC8ioEC0pnWWWOUUCdk/edit#gid=2130982122

Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?

They're 0 now. Most weapons that cannot be swapped and are unique to a unit are 0. Trygon/prime electric pulse, pyrovore gear, exocrine gear, etc.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Someone on thehivemind did points

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8HPLzLAWCdQjjX0AGs2DMzOIC8ioEC0pnWWWOUUCdk/edit#gid=2130982122

Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?

They're 0 now. Most weapons that cannot be swapped and are unique to a unit are 0. Trygon/prime electric pulse, pyrovore gear, exocrine gear, etc.

Riht. I assume that was true. But it's hard to tell anything on that spread sheet without that additional data. Tervigons went p 8 points.... k. But did their weapons change costs? Higher/ lower?

Exocrines look like they went up 66 points. Do they actually costs the same as before or cheaper? Hard to tell.

The weapons prices are there, its on another tab

Ha1 my browesr had a bar down there and I completely missed those tabs. Thanks. Much more informative then I thought. Time to calculate my list then.

Great batreps thanks for posting. Do you think you would have been better served with some of the ranged dakka we can bring now in the codex?

Also looks like we got a lot of melee weapon price cuts.

 Overread wrote:
Generally speaking it sounds like you're about right. The Termagaunt with fleshbourer has always been the backbone staple for gaunts and having a bulk of them is very typical.

Devourers are indeed a touch more specialist for gaunts; you're losing out on numbers for a better gun so typically you do tend to see them appear less. I'd still aim to build up to a good solid 30 core of them to start with.

Spinfists have always been the choice of those looking to go for mass numbers; its the swarming choice for gaunts as its typically the cheapest gun for them. That said I've never been overly impressed with them; good if you can swarm well and get up close.

In previous editions spine fists were twin linked. Now they are not, and the amount of shots stayed the same. The loss in 1 str in comparison to flesh borers doesnt do the trick either, even if you could shoot spine fists now in close combat.

The biggest problem i got with them is to simply imagine a situation, in which you would prefer them over flesh borers or devourers.
Like, your 30 man squad of spine fist gaunts got charged by something. And somehow manages to survive this assault with decent numbers. So in your next turn you could shoot with them in close combat.
IF your squad has something like 20+ models, woohoo, around 3,9 wounds before safes for T4+. Oh yeah, so much damage, so much kill! MUAHA!
... rather fall back and shoot the enemy with something else out of combat.

If they doubled the ammount of shots to 2x A-profile for termagaunts, sure. But actually i dont see any use for spine fist gaunts. Suggestions?

Edit:
Only use i could see right now is to swarm shooty vehicles with them and doubletab their attacks in close combat. But hormagants could do this better...

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Someone on thehivemind did points

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N8HPLzLAWCdQjjX0AGs2DMzOIC8ioEC0pnWWWOUUCdk/edit#gid=2130982122

Only half the picture thugh. If they don't post the same for weapon costs it's hard to tell whats actually changed.

For instance, biovores went up 12 points... but did spore mine launchers go down 12 or stay the same?

Most unique weapon options got merged into the modells base cost. So first look, most things go up in price, second look little price decrease.

 Marmatag wrote:
Great batreps thanks for posting. Do you think you would have been better served with some of the ranged dakka we can bring now in the codex?

Also looks like we got a lot of melee weapon price cuts.

I kept thinking how much I wished I had flyrants for highly mobile shooting. My playstyle isn't super cohesive with dakkafex, though I definitely recognize their strength and viability. I need faster studf to reach past the stealers and horms, and dakkafex are just never really projecting where I want before turn 3. A flyrant could have put 12 shots each into 2 reaper squads and killed 2-4 each.

I think tyranids will either focus on stealers and tyrants for damage, or neuros and carnifex. The two pairs work really well together, imo. Hormagaunts are auto include for me in any list because of their crazy flexibility in tarpit. Dakkagaunts are a great tool as well, but dont hit nearly as hard as stealers so I can't envision using more than 1 unit.

I think a shooty list revolving around exo, tyranno and hive guard is also probably viable.

Tyrants can now have 24 shots as well, or 12 with ap.

You can buff it for 2 damage with 1cp as well, now that they can DS and has a 4++ they are worth another look at, but yaeah they are something like 70pts more than a dakkafex, 2 Dakka Flyrants are 3 Dakkafex's.

Shooting nids for sure will be Malanthropes with Exocrines, TF, DakkaFex and some Hive guard.

I personally will try to make Genestealers, Hgants work with some dakka, like hive guard, 2 dakka fex, 2 dakka tyrants and a melee tyrant, a little of both.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:


From best to worst

Versus T7 3+

If people want I'll make some of my spreadsheets publicly available and make some more digestible charts as images.

Nice overview! Here are a few more units that have good values too:

Termagaunt with devourer: 0.167 expected damage making 48pts/w.
Termagaunt with devourer (and reroll ones to wound): 0.194 expected damage making 41pts/w.
Broodlord: 6.481 expected damage making 25pts/w.
Genestealer with BL and 10+ models buff: 0.833 expected damage making 14pts/w.

Here are some pictures of a spreadsheet giving these values for most of our units versus a range of targets: https://imgur.com/a/VN5rY
Note that all these values are index values, and there is the odd error, such as the broodlord vs tough targets.

 Lance845 wrote:

Make those spread sheets. If you can write up a little thing to explain what its about and pm it to me as a little tutorial on it il add it to the first post. By monday i intend to have the first post reformatted to have a unit break down and data like this on it.

I have already made a comprehensive spreadsheet that is publicly available. It is an updated version of the one that produced the images above. I have not yet put the new codex rules into the sheet, but that should not be too hard to do. There is an input guide explaining how to use special rules such as rerolls and rending. Here it is:

https://github.com/svknoe/WH40k-Point-Efficiency-Calculator

I don't mean to detract from Traceoftoxins excellent work, but it might be easier to use this spreadsheet rather than writing a new one from scratch.

Edit: Fixed the values above for the devourer gaunts.

As a person with server double defiant disorder, i got an instant headache from some of that....

I suppose that the picture could be more readable, but I'm not quite certain how to do it. I mostly use the spreadsheet myself. It is a bit easier to read.

Nah, its just me most likely lol