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 Arachnofiend wrote:
My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.

We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .

 Formosa wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.

We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .

This one does have uses.

Run a Vanguard Detachment with a WGBL in Terminator Armor, two Lone Wolves in Terminator Armor, and a squad of Wulfen. Use the Strategem on the Wulfen Pack Leader.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Run a Vanguard Detachment with a WGBL in Terminator Armor, two Lone Wolves in Terminator Armor, and a squad of Wulfen. Use the Strategem on the Wulfen Pack Leader.

Nah. Just use a Patrol detachment with a Wolf Lord with Thunderhammer (and some cheap troop filler camping Obj.) in Terminator Armour or with Jump Pack.

WS 1+ offsetting the Thunderhammer -1, as well as +1 Attack and +1 Str. (potentially, admittedly). Go in and wreck stuff. Do it again for a DA character with Hammer (or Powerfist) coming in with your close combat Deathwing (or again a Jump Pack).

Probably around 200 points for the Wolf Patrol.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.

We are one strat down, there is a limit on how many strats each army has so with this useless one (99% of the time) we have one less strat thats worthwhile, at least the chaos one has some uses .

This one does have uses.

For a mixed army, points, a CP and possibly the loss of a wound, I would consider that useless personally, but hey, I know some will like it, thats fine, I dont, not from a matched play perspective, fluff wise I am cool with it, it should just be free (for the possible loss of a wound), its not worth paying points for AND splitting the army up AND a CP and of course whatever the character costs.

I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.

The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.

The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.

And therein lies the other issue with this strategem. By having to take model/s from another army, your auras won't work for the other faction.

Seems like rather than slightly boosting something from the other army, I'd rather just have more stuff from my list that can take advantage of all my auras.

Yeah, not a fan of having to take Wolves to use a strategem in the DA codex. Hate the filthy dogs.

Always hated these kind of rules that are based on fluff, but makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would the units became so much stronger just because they went into a fight with each other before??

Malifaux and Warmahorde are full of these kind of rules, and they really kill the immersion for me, so I hope it's not a portent of things to come

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:
I hope the irony is not lost that after GW specifically called out Super Friends as being a thing they wanted to fix in 8th edition, the very first strategem DA gets only works if you have SW models in your list.

The Lion Helm no longer affects anyone but Dark Angels, so it isn't like Super Friends is back with a Vengeance.

Never meant to imply that Super Friends was back. Just pointing out how funny and stupid it is that DA has a strategem that specifically requires SW to be in your list to be used. And that GW decided that this was the best strategem to preview first.

As others have said, this strategem is super fluffy, and if you are creating a certain narrative with your game/army is really cool and fun.

But giving an army a strategem that they cannot use unless they have another army allied into their list is pants on head levels of stupidity. It's one thing if you wanna make a strategem that only works if you're fighting certain armies. That can be situationally useful at least. Its another thing entirely to make a rule that only works if you include models in your list that aren't even from the freaking army you're playing. I completely agree with any DA players who are annoyed at this. You guys collect and play DA, you shouldn't have to collect and play SW as well to have access to all the stuff in the DA codex.

be interesting if they bring the lion back, use that strat on him and a space wolf scout XD fluffy not fluffy

Maybe they should have made and announced that it was a bonus strategem and didn't count towards the limit o armyf strategems an army has in a codex.

I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.

If you don't like the models, you're screwed.

I love this stratagem and, as a Space Wolves player, will certainly add some 6 Dark Angel models to my collection to play around with it. No more investment than painting up the odd Assassin or Greyfax or other cool minis for fun (and 100x better than painting ugly ass and dated tank kits like Predators).

And I don't think there is a "limit" on how many stratagems are in a Codex. They just put in the Stratagems they come up with and that's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Latro_ wrote:
be interesting if they bring the lion back, use that strat on him and a space wolf scout XD fluffy not fluffy

Primarchs (thus far) aren't Infantry. Which is somewhat of a pity. It would actually be cool to actually use it on the actual Lion and Russ himself in some distant future, assuming GW does (almost) all Primarchs eventually.

 streetsamurai wrote:
Always hated these kind of rules that are based on fluff, but makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would the units became so much stronger just because they went into a fight with each other before??

Malifaux and Warmahorde are full of these kind of rules, and they really kill the immersion for me, so I hope it's not a portent of things to come

The fluff really does justify the effect of the rules. If a blood angel can get +1 strength for just getting caught up in fisticuffs, then a dark angel and space wolf can (plus additional buffs) from being amped at being chosen to partake in the 100000 year old ritual of reenacting the duel between the lion and russ.

Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Gotta take these plastic toy soldier rules serious...

Thank you GW for not taking yourself so serious as some of your customers apparently have.

I am more interested in the story piece and how they will justify the Primaris in the DA army.

Let’s move this story along!

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Either way, if there were strict Stratagem limits in total and by play type (not the case), Matched Play would and should only get 1/3rd of them anyhow (with Open Play and Narrative Play as the two other modes of play also getting 1/3rd each).

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Yeah, this "Omg, as we have this we will have now one less good stratagem!" is nonsense. Wheres written that theres need to be a fixed number of stratagems?

Christ, guys: it's literally just a fun little thing you can do if you're playing an apocalypse game with your friend who runs Space Wolves or something.

And I don't think the chosen champions get the bonus from the fight; the idea is they always had the buffs, which is what got them selected to take part in the ritual in the first place.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!

I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.

If you don't like the models, you're screwed.

To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.

Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.

 Formosa wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!

Well with a CSM detachment they can use most of CSM's on their own stuff as well.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.

If you don't like the models, you're screwed.

To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.

Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.

Which is a distinction I don't get. A Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a Predator is no different than a Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a box of Marines and a Character to paint in Space Wolves blue. It's all just sprues in a box.

This weird absorption of in-universe factions and background as player-identity of "my army" and "your army" is kinda funny and also strangely disturbing. "My army" isn't Dark Angels or Space Wolves. "My army" is the models I have, which might include Dark Angels and Eldar and Assassins and Space Wolves and no Predators, which might "force" me to buy them if I have that weird completionist fetish of "I must use everything" (which is weird from competitive people in particular, who usually tend to make it a point of pride to ignore large parts of the game). Or it might not include Space-Wolves-blue Marines, which, yes, than you might be "forced" by your own completionist delusion to buy those.

It's plastic toys and as far as background goes, this stratagem builds on a more solid foundation of in-universe background and rules than 3 tanks kinda merging their cannon shots mid-flight into some magic super-projectile. It's fine. Don't like it, ignore it. Feeling the "irresistable urge" to use all CAPS EVERYTHING, start with Open War cards and Narrative play before getting all sore about a single throwaway Stratagem the designers used to have some fun with a vintage-40K story point.

Sunny Side Up wrote:

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.

If you don't like the models, you're screwed.

To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.

Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.

Which is a distinction I don't get. A Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a Predator is no different than a Stratagem "forcing" you to spend 50 USD on a box of Marines and a Character to paint in Space Wolves blue. It's all just sprues in a box.

This is a really strange outlook to me. I chose DAs because I like DAs. I don't like Wolves, UMs etc. Not taking a unit in my chosen force is not even close to not taking something from an entirely different army. Not the same game, not even in the same ballpark.

I guess if you want to use the strat....just take a small tac sqd and character (or whatever the wulfies get) and paint them as DAs but just use wolf rules. Really dumb though. I appreciate the fluff, but to include it as a strategem that does take the spot of a regular strategem (regardless of how many they had) is kind of sucky.

Arachnofiend wrote:My point is that your "DA is one stratagem down" argument is silly because every army gets oddball stratagems that aren't really intended to be useful in a competitive environment.

That is good to know. I am wondering how come we never herd about these other strategems where you need another codex/book to use.

this thread got really bad

 Formosa wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Looking at the codexes I have access to, AdMech has 28 stratagems, CSM has 24, and Death Guard has 14. So there's clearly some variance in how many stratagems an army gets with no fixed number.

Ah my mistake I thought all armies had between 20 and 30 available (including BRB ones), had no idea DG had only 14!

Death Guard have fewer because they can use all of theirs; CSM, AdMech, etc. have an entire page dedicated to stratagems that each can only be used by one legion/forge world/etc. If you play your CSM as purely Black Legion for example you effectively have 18 stratagems, which is still more than Death Guard get but not as extreme.

 GI_Redshirt wrote:

I don't find it any more limiting than having to buy a Predator or Landspeeder to use certain stratagems.

If you don't like the models, you're screwed.

To be fair, Predators and Landspeeders are actually units within the Dark Angels army. Anything Space Wolf is not. Having to buy certain models from within your army range to make use of the rules in your codex is one thing, and is expected of the hobby. Having to buy models that are from a completely different army in order to make use of rules from your own army's codex is completely different. This isn't an Imperium codex or a general Space Marine Codex. This is the Dark Angels codex. It stands to reason that any rules within it would require only Dark Angels units and models to make use of. This is like giving SM a strategem that they need Imperial Guard within their army to make use of. Or CSM needing Daemons. Or Eldar needing Harlequins.

Why should a player be forced to purchase models from a different army in order to make use of their army's full rules and codex options? I'm not complaining about it not being good or not being competitive, I simply have an issue with players being forced to collect a different army in order to play with all their strategems.

CSM need demons to summon them. Thats a special rule of that army.

As a Dark Angel player, this rule is not only fun to use, but is actually pretty damm good. Paying 1 CP to give a Company Commander in Terminator Armour with TH and SS +1 WS so he hits with the TH in 2+, +1 attack and efectively +2S? And all those bonuses to a SW HQ too. Yes please.

Is both fluffy and very damm powerfull. Of course people can chose to not use it. I don't know if people realizes this was a rule in 3rd edition for the Dark Angels and Space Wolves. I think is pretty damm cool that they have revived that rule with this special stratagem.

Stop right there you damm Matched play fanatics, you are not the only players out there. I have already talk with my group to use this stratagem in narrative games agaisn't the two players that use SW wolves. This is a nice bone out there for the old fans of the armies, and in the plus side it can open new armies styles. Theres nothing bad about this, literally.

And no "But they force me to buy SW to use this, if I don't use this i'm at a disadvantage!" no. It cost you 1 CP. If you don't use that CP in this stratagem you can use it in others.

*Is excited to hear DA and BA players stop whining about being the worst*

Oh wait.