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sadhvikv wrote:
I agree, change isn't automatically good. But the changes here that influence the competitive scene are good.

Literally removing conscripts from the game is your idea of a good change?

Did anyone else notice that Hellblasters are down to 18pts for Death Watch and Wolves but not for Space Marines?

EDIT: Nevermind, they are already 18pts in Codex SM.

Spoletta wrote:
Hmmm no, Terminus Ultra actually were increased in cost. Before they were 400 all included, now they are 250 without wargear. Add 8 lasscannons and you get 450 before adding any optionals.

Oh I see. Well in that case I’m happy again. And I don’t know how I managed to calculate 250+200 and get 350!

On the conscripts issue I can see why 4ppm is correct, even though infantry squads cost the same. The value of conscripts is that you can blob them up, which you can’t do with infantry squads (except by using cps).

A unit of 30 conscripts does things that 3 unit’s of 10 infantry do not. Auras, psychic powers and other buffs are much more efffecyive in them. Charging them means taking 60 overwatch shots. Etc etc. The stats are not the full story.

Serious question - what happens if I just don't buy Chapter Approved? Do I just keep using my codex (along with any relevant FAQs)?

 Peregrine wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
I agree, change isn't automatically good. But the changes here that influence the competitive scene are good.

Literally removing conscripts from the game is your idea of a good change?

That's not what "literally" means.

 Sim-Life wrote:
That's not what "literally" means.

There is no possible situation in which conscripts will ever be used. They do not exist anymore.


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Mandragola wrote:
A unit of 30 conscripts does things that 3 unit’s of 10 infantry do not. Auras, psychic powers and other buffs are much more efffecyive in them. Charging them means taking 60 overwatch shots. Etc etc. The stats are not the full story.

This might be a valid point, except they have a 50% chance to fail any orders (you know, the best IG buff) you give them and they require buffs just to get to the same level that normal infantry have without the buffs. An equal point value in normal infantry will be far more effective than the conscripts, even if a buff is only applied to half as many models.

sadhvikv wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Personally think it looks pretty good, has had some effect on the meta for the competitive scene. The casual scene will still take models because they are cool even if they are overcosted and will still be able to have a fun game with friends.

Change is not automatically good. Especially when it's money driven. And casual scene would still benefit from good balance rather than gw greedy driven changes

I agree, change isn't automatically good. But the changes here that influence the competitive scene are good.

And as a point, why would they nerf so much FW if they were money driven?

Some people seem to think that GW prefer a return on their plastic minis where as some think that they're not the same company still. Balance changes as they are likely to actually lose them money since the hyper expensive monetary options are weaker.

sadhvikv wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

sadhvikv wrote:
Personally think it looks pretty good, has had some effect on the meta for the competitive scene. The casual scene will still take models because they are cool even if they are overcosted and will still be able to have a fun game with friends.

Change is not automatically good. Especially when it's money driven. And casual scene would still benefit from good balance rather than gw greedy driven changes

I agree, change isn't automatically good. But the changes here that influence the competitive scene are good.

And as a point, why would they nerf so much FW if they were money driven?

Again just cause it's change doesn't mean it'sgoodd for competive.

And it's plain obvious. 100 pound gw plastic is more profitable than 100 pounds fw resin. If fw gets modellers money and gamers(most) money goes to gw it's more money for gw's profit's. Not to mention shifing balance from units that have sold to models that hadn't.

Gw isn't even being subtle about it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Serious question - what happens if I just don't buy Chapter Approved? Do I just keep using my codex (along with any relevant FAQs)?

You don't get to play without opponent agreeing to change game rules

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
That's not what "literally" means.

There is no possible situation in which conscripts will ever be used. They do not exist anymore.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
A unit of 30 conscripts does things that 3 unit’s of 10 infantry do not. Auras, psychic powers and other buffs are much more efffecyive in them. Charging them means taking 60 overwatch shots. Etc etc. The stats are not the full story.

This might be a valid point, except they have a 50% chance to fail any orders (you know, the best IG buff) you give them and they require buffs just to get to the same level that normal infantry have without the buffs. An equal point value in normal infantry will be far more effective than the conscripts, even if a buff is only applied to half as many models.

As a pure meatshhield with pretty sure they are still better bigger squad with the casualty removal rules mean you have more control vs say 3 squads of infantry. They can conga line better to said commisar and if you have pietrovs pistol or psyker giving them +1 save its far more effective for the larger squad.

Hmm, if I'm not mistaken, the FW nerfs are mostly to huge superheavy units more suited for apocalypse style games, right? Because a look over the FW points changes at a glance looks like they were mostly lowered.

Dudeface wrote:

Some people seem to think that GW prefer a return on their plastic minis where as some think that they're not the same company still. Balance changes as they are likely to actually lose them money since the hyper expensive monetary options are weaker.

Sigh. Anybody who studies how castings work knows margin on plastic(cheaper material, automated production) is bigger than resin(expensive, manual work).

If you say to gw i buy models with 100 pounds guess which is more profitable? Hint: not resin.


And you assume people buy set amount of items and not money. What you think gamer does with "saved" money? Often more plastic. End amount spend tends to be same. Just with less profit if resin

First CA youtube review up!

No. No. That's not how meatshields work.

Now I can have two staggered lines of Guardsmen infront of whatever it is, that's two seperate targets. They suffer less from Moral, have a higher leadership, and better [if marginally] long range fire, and a free sergeant dude with some extra CC. If you charge one, you may well kill it and run into the second, seperate unit, rather than being able to charge and wipe them all out.
They work better with orders, meaning as a passive unit they're great, and if they exist for tying you up in close combat, unlike a conscript squad, I can even give them flamers for the extra annoyance.


If I really, really want a twenty man squad, for the price of 1cp, I will get back on a 5+ out of the 10 or so I start with, I can make them a 20 man squad. [With better BS, WS, Ld and special/heavy weapons options and no order penalities. - For the same price.]

tneva82 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Some people seem to think that GW prefer a return on their plastic minis where as some think that they're not the same company still. Balance changes as they are likely to actually lose them money since the hyper expensive monetary options are weaker.

Sigh. Anybody who studies how castings work knows margin on plastic(cheaper material, automated production) is bigger than resin(expensive, manual work).

If you say to gw i buy models with 100 pounds guess which is more profitable? Hint: not resin.


And you assume people buy set amount of items and not money. What you think gamer does with "saved" money? Often more plastic. End amount spend tends to be same. Just with less profit if resin

For a long time the £55 malanthrope was superior to the £30 (because discounters exist) venomthropes box. Moreover you need multiple malanthropes in most armies, so which is more profitable with them selling the venomthropes at bulk value to 3rd parties rather than a direct sale via forgeworld?

 Nogil wrote:
First CA youtube review up!

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

I saw no mention of changes to the character rule or smite.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Who did the Thousand Sons piss off that Rubrics are now more expensive than Plague Marines and the Exalted Sorcerers just went up a relative ton?

Rubric sorcerers used to be 30 and are now 18 (CSM book). The staff used to be 14 and is now 8. They're doing just fine. Exalted nerf sucks, but i'm guessing it was for smite spam.


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 Crazyterran wrote:


My 6 Razors/3 LasPred & Chronus/Guilliman list went up 114... guess ill drop a Razorback, heh.

The system works!

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Nogil wrote:
First CA youtube review up!

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

I saw no mention of changes to the character rule or smite.

Around 13mins for the character rules.

Planeststrike has mission specific attacker and defender detachments.

Gah they left character targeting rules the same only added that it includes characters which cant be seen.

 Peregrine wrote:
. Oh, and I guess the Falchion gets a mostly-meaningless +1 toughness and +1 save, which do nothing against the weapons that are expected to shoot at these tanks. The Shadowsword costs 540 points, the Falchion costs 800 points. Can you honestly say that a ~15% increase in main-gun firepower and a modest durability increase is worth paying almost 50% more points? Of course not.

+1T does nothing and +1S? To the weapons shooting at it? You mean fething lascannons?

Uhh let's see...

1 * .666 * .833 = 0.55 // 47 lascannon hits required 1 * .5 * .666 = 0.33 // 78 lascannon hits required

66% better

Or melta guns?

1 * .5 * 1 = 0.5 // 52 1 * .333 * .833 = 0.27 // 96

84% better

So, yes, it's not far fetched that something approaching nearly double the durability will be nearly double the points. And then you through on the bristling weapons and the cannon that can double out a baneblade. Sure, totally unreasonable.

Matched play clarifications are interesting. Definitely want to read the clarification for CP usage. New missions appear to be tourney missions I have played many times in the past, especially the one where objective markers are worth different points based on the location.

Thanks for the review link.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Nogil wrote:
First CA youtube review up!

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

I saw no mention of changes to the character rule or smite.

Around 13mins for the character rules.

Looks like they didn't adress the weird bug of not being able to shoot a next-nearest unit character if you're standing near an ongoing Melee that presents an invalid shooting target.

changemod wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Nogil wrote:
First CA youtube review up!

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

I saw no mention of changes to the character rule or smite.

Around 13mins for the character rules.

Looks like they didn't adress the weird bug of not being able to shoot a next-nearest unit character if you're standing near an ongoing Melee that presents an invalid shooting target.

This is intentional otherwise melee Characters would be USELESS

Porphyrion is up +50 pts. But that's Chaos Porphyrion only?

On the bright side, Knight Warlord gets +1 attack, which brings us to 15 stomps.
And, finally, actually useful 'gem.

I would might have swallowed Aetaos'Rao"keres price change from 700 to 1500 if they wouldn't increase prices of other greater daemons to nonsensical "pretty numbers" and other FW changes wouldn't reveal lack of thought and calculation behind these changes. Although Aetaos could be easily countered, he is certainly very good in present metagame, and eventhough Magnus is better mathematically, I could swallow Aetaos being put to the shelf, but... given GW didn't change Power Level of those units who got 100%+ increase in points, the message is:"Please, use this in Open and Narrative Play only, we don't want to bother ourself with these things in Matched Play"

Ok, i get that, but I can't agree less with this.

Sorry about adding to the rant, but I just finished painting Aetaos and managed to field him in 1 tournament only.
Seems like no serious business for him untill FW says it's own word about these changes.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

changemod wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 Nogil wrote:
First CA youtube review up!

Spoiler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

I saw no mention of changes to the character rule or smite.

Around 13mins for the character rules.

Looks like they didn't adress the weird bug of not being able to shoot a next-nearest unit character if you're standing near an ongoing Melee that presents an invalid shooting target.

This is intentional otherwise melee Characters would be USELESS

I'm obviously not talking about if the character is also locked in Melee.

As the other youtube vid seems to have been removed, here is another page by page review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1YcY39Yas

Matched play info starts at 12:06 and the faction rules start around 23:00.

Worth noting, certain landraider patterns, like the Ultra, now seem to be Apoc games only.

changemod wrote:

I'm obviously not talking about if the character is also locked in Melee.

But still, why do you think there's a "bug" here? They even changed the character rule in CA so that now you just can't shoot a character at all unless it's visible and the closest unit, regardless of whether you can even see the closer unit.

Dionysodorus wrote:

changemod wrote:

I'm obviously not talking about if the character is also locked in Melee.

But still, why do you think there's a "bug" here? They even changed the character rule in CA so that now you just can't shoot a character at all unless it's visible and the closest unit, regardless of whether you can even see the closer unit.

Because I've had plenty of endgame scenarios where I'm trying to mop up the last of an opponent's army, but their character is standing halfway across the board wide in the open.

The issue is if you have two charachters, one a charachter in melee your opponent cant shoot at other normally viable targets basically crowd controling both the unit the charachter is in melee with and the other ranged units behind. Its currently being abused in the Meta with asassins basically sitting in melee all game to block you from targeting the rest of their more squishy character army, e.g psykers.

WatcherZero wrote:
The issue is if you have two charachters, one a charachter in melee your opponent cant shoot at other normally viable targets basically crowd controling both the unit the charachter is in melee with and the other ranged units behind. Its currently being abused in the Meta with asassins basically sitting in melee all game to block you from targeting the rest of their more squishy character army, e.g psykers.

I'm glad that they've clarified when you can shoot a character, and to be fair, i'd say it's pretty reasonable.

Sure, an assassin could get into the lines and just stop you from shooting - but, i guess the counter argument is, well, move? End game, sure, it can be a pain if you only have characters left to kill, but, it then becomes an issue of why your army doesn't have something that is able to kill something like an assassin over the course of 5 turns.