Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Objectively a lot of the changes are rubbish to be fair, GW is amply showing that its design studio doesnt actually playtest at all and that they dont actually know what they are doing, at first I did not agree that these changes should have been a free PDF, but having now seen the changes and the rest of the book, the changes SHOULD be a free PDF and if anyone wants the extra missions etc. then pay for them (I like the missions so have paid for them).

ERJAK wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:


That is a very naive view. ABSOLUTELY, they want to sell a certain model... It is either the model they just released or the one that no one is buying. Once they have bled the consumer base for what is a good unit, that shift the power level of the units in a codex, or shift an entire army (codex creep) in order to move specific models. GW gives a feth about making a balanced game, has stated so publicly (we are a model company, not a game company), and any appearance of attempting to is nothing more than smoke an mirrors in order to shift power again. Why did the holy Trinity go virtually untouched? Possibly because we are smack dab in the middle of an Imperial release cycle... Or even just the fact that space Marines are their biggest sales line item?

Over the years I have always operated under the rule of always count on GW to do the absolute worst thing for either the game or the customer, but CA is a whole new level of WTF.

Something is pointed low.
"Oh they're trying to sell that model!"
Points are raised.
"Ah they must be done selling that model!"

You guys are just too smart for GW. Clearly if everything was balanced we would buy kits from all over the range to try things out. That would be stupid!

Arguments like where posted are the same sort of thing that get people sucked into things like anti-vaxxing, flat-earthing, or any of the other various stupid conspiracies out there.

Firstly people start to think that they're superior because they worked out the 'secret scam' that no one else POSSIBLY could have. This is so important that the scam making any sense is nearly irrelevant. They're money grubbers! NO MOM IT DOESN'T MATTER THAT THERE'S NO MONEY TO GRUB IN MY IDEA!.

Then the assumptions start coming in. Obviously GW has perfect data about consumer preferences at the micro-level AND staff members who parse that data into useable trends despite evidence of them doing very little of this type of market research in the past. THEN obviously they've determined that in game power is the primary, no ONLY driver of model sales. Obviously, I mean it's not like they sold a ridiculous amount of deathguard/Primaris models despite deathguard being below average and primaris being quietly the worst mono-army in the game and inferior to their older counterparts in everyway.

Then once they evily determine the exact quality of kits that need to be sold which is obviously old kits t (new fancy stuff)hat aren't selling. O......kay, we'll put a pin in that one. But yeah they determine the type of kit that they just NEED to sell over every other kit they produce and then they...wait several months/years without doing anything.

But okay, it's months later and now it's time for the big change. Obviously we want people buying more Cawls so we'll drop him 10pts...wait every player in that army already owns Cawl? Darn it, well we'll get the next one. What about dropping SoB tanks? No one's bought a new SoB model since '04 because everyone that stuck around has everything they need or knows how to use ebay? Well shoot.

I know we'll drop Primaris marines, once they're the best army in the game the money will FLOW on...wait, most of it's still pretty subpar and hamstrung by the superior alternatives in existing marine armies...NOOOO! WHAT ABOUT GK TERMINATORS, PLEASE TELL ME THEY'RE BUYING GK TERMINATORS?!?! OH GOD WHY!!!!!

Well...at least we can make sure people stop buying conscripts and Forgeworld stuff. After all, that's what this was really all about. Our multi-million dollar company devoted design, development, and production assets to make sure no one buys superchicken. 'Cause they're eeeeeeevilllllllllllllll.

Rawr.

Wow... You wrote a lot to say basically nothing. Still doesn't refute that for everything there is an R&D cost, and a calibrated ROI for it that must be met to appease... Well ultimately the share holders. It will either sell thorough incredible appearance (a minority in our hobby) or through incredible rules (playability), which is more common. Then there is moving old stock. Granted everything is cyclic and oft if you simply hold on to your bad units, they eventually become good again. However, as ridiculous as pricing has got, a good number of players must sell/trade unused models to be able to afford the others so......

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is there a rumor or news about the GW staff being fired, because if not, can you guys move this to one of the like five threads in General Discussion?

Have any pictures of the different army rules materialized in the wild yet?

Quite.

No more yelling about the GW staff here, that is not the topic.


Further posts of that ilk will be treated as spam.

 Formosa wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Objectively a lot of the changes are rubbish to be fair, GW is amply showing that its design studio doesnt actually playtest at all and that they dont actually know what they are doing, at first I did not agree that these changes should have been a free PDF, but having now seen the changes and the rest of the book, the changes SHOULD be a free PDF and if anyone wants the extra missions etc. then pay for them (I like the missions so have paid for them).

A lot are rubbish?

Primaris didn't need point drops?
Orks didn't need point drops?
Stormravens and Razorbacks shouldn't be more expensive?
Twin assault cannons should be double the cost of a single assault cannon?
Force weapons shouldn't be less expensive?
Hurricane bolters shouldn't be more expensive?
SoB Eviscerators shouldn't be cheaper?
Astropaths and primaris psykers shouldn't be increased?
Death Guard didn't need point drops?
Chaos bikers, defilers, and mutilators have been seeing strong use?
Autocannons were awesome before the adjustment?

We can argue the degree of changes. We can worry about what wasn't touched later. But to call what is 90% or better moving in the right direction as mostly rubbish is obscene.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Never live in an echo chamber its good to expose yourself to the views of others even if you disagree.

But remember just because you disagree doesn't mean the other guys wrong.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Enough bemoaning about the point values for now. We'll get plenty of that in the general discussion.

What do people feel about the other parts of it?

What, you mean the stuff that's been included in the core rule book for at least the last couple of editions that's been stripped out and resold to is in CA?

I can't seem to find the full planetstrike, apocalypse, or cities of death rules in any of my past 4 eddition's core books.

Could you show me where they are? I hate to have wasted money on books when it turns out there were simply hundreds of pages I missed...

Show you where things I wasn't referring to are? Why would I do that? I was more specifically referring to the terrain rules and the "Battlezone" bull that nobody ever played. You get to roll a dice for a random effect! Every turn! Wow. Nothing like stuff included in previous rulebooks.

Plus I agree with Peregrine (which is in and of itself a bad sign, we often don't see eye to eye, but history says that if we're of a mind on something it doesn't end so well for people who disagree with that viewpoint.)

While I heartily endorse the concept of CA, this just reeks of rushed filler, repacked Day 1 DLC and selling people errata and "balance" changes, conceivably for the third time in around 6 months.

Sure, some of it makes sense and is a move in the right direction, or even a complete resolution, but the pants on head decisions are more than outweighing the good ones for me right now.

 Formosa wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Objectively a lot of the changes are rubbish to be fair, GW is amply showing that its design studio doesnt actually playtest at all and that they dont actually know what they are doing, at first I did not agree that these changes should have been a free PDF, but having now seen the changes and the rest of the book, the changes SHOULD be a free PDF and if anyone wants the extra missions etc. then pay for them (I like the missions so have paid for them).

There's nothing objective about that. It is an opinion. I bet you and everyone else here (for the most part) hasn't even played the game.

I certainly have my reservations about a few changes (specifically FW - the 40k side seems fine on paper for the most part), but be honest here.

hobojebus wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Never live in an echo chamber its good to expose yourself to the views of others even if you disagree.

But remember just because you disagree doesn't mean the other guys wrong.

The internet in general is more or less an echo chamber for negativity. I'm not actually even sure its all that helpful to expose yourself to it if your own gaming circle is relatively happy.

I'll say this as a Deathwatch player feeling a little left out in the cold.... this is probably the best effort GW has put forth towards adapting to the needs of a competitive environment. That doesn't mean that GW's best is... even in the running of another company's worst, but... well, good for them.

CassianSol wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Objectively a lot of the changes are rubbish to be fair, GW is amply showing that its design studio doesnt actually playtest at all and that they dont actually know what they are doing, at first I did not agree that these changes should have been a free PDF, but having now seen the changes and the rest of the book, the changes SHOULD be a free PDF and if anyone wants the extra missions etc. then pay for them (I like the missions so have paid for them).

There's nothing objective about that. It is an opinion. I bet you and everyone else here (for the most part) hasn't even played the game.

I certainly have my reservations about a few changes (specifically FW - the 40k side seems fine on paper for the most part), but be honest here.

Eh, I'd say the whole Earthshaker Carriage/Basilisk nonsense is pretty conclusively objectively rubbish.

Unless you want to forward a reason why the Carriage, which is objectively inferior, will now cost more than the Basilisk?

Then there's a whole raft of stuff like Guilliman, which while technically subjective, is generating such a strong consensus that it may as well not be.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Good ol' Dakkadakka. Whenever I like something about the hobby or find new changes reasonable I can have a look here and learn that it's actually all rubbish.

Objectively a lot of the changes are rubbish to be fair, GW is amply showing that its design studio doesnt actually playtest at all and that they dont actually know what they are doing, at first I did not agree that these changes should have been a free PDF, but having now seen the changes and the rest of the book, the changes SHOULD be a free PDF and if anyone wants the extra missions etc. then pay for them (I like the missions so have paid for them).

A lot are rubbish?

Primaris didn't need point drops?
Orks didn't need point drops?
Stormravens and Razorbacks shouldn't be more expensive?
Twin assault cannons should be double the cost of a single assault cannon?
Force weapons shouldn't be less expensive?
Hurricane bolters shouldn't be more expensive?
SoB Eviscerators shouldn't be cheaper?
Astropaths and primaris psykers shouldn't be increased?
Death Guard didn't need point drops?
Chaos bikers, defilers, and mutilators have been seeing strong use?
Autocannons were awesome before the adjustment?

We can argue the degree of changes. We can worry about what wasn't touched later. But to call what is 90% or better moving in the right direction as mostly rubbish is obscene.

Um...are we only considering the Codex changes here, or everything? Most of the Codex changes are fine, but we have some real stinkers (IG meltaguns), and a vast number of incomprehensibly punitive FW nerfs, in most cases for no discernible reason, that would certainly kick that "90%" number to the curb.

Anyone else really enjoying these new changes and points cuts like me. I’m able to add another 70pts to my list. Really excited for this book after seeing the reviews.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Um...are we only considering the Codex changes here, or everything? Most of the Codex changes are fine, but we have some real stinkers (IG meltaguns), and a vast number of incomprehensibly punitive FW nerfs, in most cases for no discernible reason, that would certainly kick that "90%" number to the curb.

Melta guns are consistent with their current pointing logic. You might disagree with the application of it, but it isn't random. Massive FW nerfs in quantity pale compared to all the other changes. The total point changes are certainly more broad, sure.

But I get the feeling that people see a Taurox going up 10 points and completely ignore the cost of the autocannons dropping by 6 points to make "the bigger picture" overwhelmingly negative.

Perceptions like that and things like the prism rifle for Shadow Specters, which in my opinion is entirely warranted when you compare it to a heavy flamer, that skew the reality of the situation. Every faction has flocked to their nerfs to cry out against them as bad before anyone else took a pencil to any of it.

broxus wrote:
Anyone else really enjoying these new changes and points cuts like me. I’m able to add another 70pts to my list. Really excited for this book after seeing the reviews.

Mixed feelings. I love the AdMech buffs across the board, but I overall feel like GW dropped the ball. Celestine & Guileman didn't get fixed, none of the Necron or Tau armies got any points fixes, grey knights got a mediocre buff to one specific unit that needed more. The titan/superheavy nerfs were just weird, but I get why they did it.

Overall, I'd give it a passing grade, but not a high one. And not one that'd pass you in college.

Idk, my revenant seemed to go up 800 points. Maybe there is a points reduction in weapons I didn’t see, but it was always outclassed by almost all of the other titans at its old cost. Always seems to die to lesser things turn 1 before it could move and get an invulnerable save.

1200 to 2000 seems steep when I was always borderline weather to take it anyway

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Um...are we only considering the Codex changes here, or everything? Most of the Codex changes are fine, but we have some real stinkers (IG meltaguns), and a vast number of incomprehensibly punitive FW nerfs, in most cases for no discernible reason, that would certainly kick that "90%" number to the curb.

Melta guns are consistent with their current pointing logic.

Not really, only Plasma guns are treated similarly. Other special & heavy weapons are not. There's very little consistent about *any* of this Errata.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is there a rumor or news about the GW staff being fired, because if not, can you guys move this to one of the like five threads in General Discussion?

Have any pictures of the different army rules materialized in the wild yet?

Based on a video that went through the entire book page by page (and was swiftly taken down for doing so) I can confirm that the leaks are 100% accurate, and I don't remember there being any rules that weren't in the leaks.

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

broxus wrote:
Anyone else really enjoying these new changes and points cuts like me. I’m able to add another 70pts to my list. Really excited for this book after seeing the reviews.

Celestine & Guileman didn't get fixed

If the rumor about needing two faction keywords in common to count as battle-forged is true, this will stop SOME of the issues with these two, since Guilliman won't be in Guard armies anymore. It'll also stop some cheese like seeing Brimstone Horrors in Death Guard armies.

I am a very big fan of this post.

Anyway, since they obviously just half arsed the apocalypse rules this time around, how do I win the "roll 1d6 to win" portion of it?

You know, since that is all the last apocalypse book with 200+ pages of lore, missions, strategems, statblocks, warlord buffs, and awesome pictures boiled down to in the end...

Titans in 8th need a full rules revamp. I'm fine with them being super expensive points wise, but they need to work effectively and have enough durability to reflect those point costs. Void shields/ power fields/ holo fields also need a major change to make them work like they should.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

broxus wrote:
Anyone else really enjoying these new changes and points cuts like me. I’m able to add another 70pts to my list. Really excited for this book after seeing the reviews.

Celestine & Guileman didn't get fixed

If the rumor about needing two faction keywords in common to count as battle-forged is true, this will stop SOME of the issues with these two, since Guilliman won't be in Guard armies anymore. It'll also stop some cheese like seeing Brimstone Horrors in Death Guard armies.

Preeeetty sure that's debunked as far as CA goes. We've seen the entire book, page for page.

hobojebus wrote:
Gws social media is a bad joke they don't want to hear from us look at how they handled the diversity post banning any dissenting opinion no matter how pleasantly you put it.

Dude I'm pretty sure I remember you opening up some “diversity” thread here in dakka and it being quickly locked by the mod because of your opinions being absolutely terrible. So I'm not sure the problem is GW for once…
Maybe some introspection is in order?

He's started 5 threads in his entire Dakka career.

None of them have anything to do with diversity.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Gws social media is a bad joke they don't want to hear from us look at how they handled the diversity post banning any dissenting opinion no matter how pleasantly you put it.

Dude I'm pretty sure I remember you opening up some “diversity” thread here in dakka and it being quickly locked by the mod because of your opinions being absolutely terrible. So I'm not sure the problem is GW for once…
Maybe some introspection is in order?

Nah I had quick reply removed for something else, the mods don't get I'm obligated to mock the French at every opportunity under UK law.

But I was more concerned with the fact they finally nerfed Biggs at the time along side the changes to the jump master.

It is an unfortunate fact that the vast majority of Internet discourse. A happy coustomer is much less likely to post about their experience than an unhappy one. If you look at the complaints in this thread, the vast majority of them come from twenty or so users who are unhappy with 8th edition generally.
Personally I have found that complaints about points in the abstract have little weight. Go away, play a few games with the leaked points then come back and make your assertions.
I see a lot of complaint about the lack of quality playtesting, but I wonder how many of those people have actually given their feedback on Facebook or by a direct email to GW.

To make some observations regarding the points changes, I wonder how much the points changes are a reaction to the criticism that the AOS points changes were a little timid.

As for the points changes to sell models argument, this was directly asked on warhammer live in regards to AOS. The answer was that points changes has a very minimal impact on sales.
Despite GW's recent efforts to encourage tournament play it is still true that many many people who buy GW models do not play with them at all.
Tau became hugely popular, not because they are a good army but because people like big robots.
GW are currently struggling to keep the baneblade in stock. If these points changes had such an impact, GW could easily solve their stock issues by increasing the price of out of stock items. The is demonstrably not the case.

I have always struggled with the desperate need that the user base have for perfect balance with GW games.
Starcraft 2 has three factions with a limited amount of units with fixed load outs and a multi billion dollar company behind it, yet they still struggle to keep it balanced.
40k has more than 20 factions each with many units, which have variable loadouts. Balancing this game must be an absolute nightmare.
GW has decided to attempt to accomplish this task by putting out constant balance patches. Much like with Starcraft, each new patch is bound to upset some part of the community.
It will be interesting to see if the community ultimately decides that they don't want this way of supporting the game. This will come down to how well the chapter approved, and generals handbooks sell.
If you think this is a bad move don't buy the book. After all we already know what all the point changes are and the book is not even out yet.
I will probably buy it but then I did not buy any of the index books as I knew they would eventually be made redundant.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Um...are we only considering the Codex changes here, or everything? Most of the Codex changes are fine, but we have some real stinkers (IG meltaguns), and a vast number of incomprehensibly punitive FW nerfs, in most cases for no discernible reason, that would certainly kick that "90%" number to the curb.

Melta guns are consistent with their current pointing logic.

Not really, only Plasma guns are treated similarly. Other special & heavy weapons are not. There's very little consistent about *any* of this Errata.

Eh? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Every model in the game that is BS3 pays 17 points for a Melta Gun now.

Personally the main thing that ticks me off about all this is that they're charging for it. The changes brought on are whatever, because if it doesn't work out then ideally they can keep tweaking it until they get it right. But I don't remember having to pay for balance patches for Starcraft or literally any other competitive game I've played, and you'd probably have people almost rioting over it if you tried. And we're talking about video games which cost far, far less. Selling the balance patches almost makes a cynical person think that the game is unbalanced on purpose to ensure the product has a purpose. At the very least I feel like it's in bad taste.

If they insist on selling it like this then I think they should at least make it cheap, like $20 or less. They won't turn a huge profit on it, no, but then again I don't really feel like they should be, since the main purpose of Chapter Approved in this iteration is to fix their mistakes anyway. They should be happy that people are willing to pay for it at all.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Um...are we only considering the Codex changes here, or everything? Most of the Codex changes are fine, but we have some real stinkers (IG meltaguns), and a vast number of incomprehensibly punitive FW nerfs, in most cases for no discernible reason, that would certainly kick that "90%" number to the curb.

Melta guns are consistent with their current pointing logic.

Not really, only Plasma guns are treated similarly. Other special & heavy weapons are not. There's very little consistent about *any* of this Errata.

Eh? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.

Every model in the game that is BS3 pays 17 points for a Melta Gun now.

And that doesn't makes any type of sense. Even if the body is priced diferently, it doesn't has the same mileage of Meltagun a model that can deepstrike like Scions than a Deathguard, a Tactical Marine, or a IG Infantry. That sinergy isn't costed anywhere, not in the cost of the weapon or in the cost of the body.

Chikout wrote:

Tau became hugely popular, not because they are a good army but because people like big robots.
GW are currently struggling to keep the baneblade in stock. If these points changes had such an impact, GW could easily solve their stock issues by increasing the price of out of stock items. The is demonstrably not the case.

1) are you insane? Tau became popular because they were literally curb stomping every army in every competitive scene......

2) Except they are not grossly adjusting points across models they sell. They are doing it to FW models which they get no balance sheet return on and shifting those funds over to their own. Which is EXACTLY why the likes of the banebalde and shadowsword etc didnt get the nerf bat that things like the fellblade, superchicken, or mastadon (wtf GW the tank was already bad for it's points).

Chikout wrote:

GW are currently struggling to keep the baneblade in stock. If these points changes had such an impact, GW could easily solve their stock issues by increasing the price of out of stock items. The is demonstrably not the case.

And why do you think Banebla... *coff* Shadowsword *coff*...des are out of stock everywhere?