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Only two things in the AM Codex get autoguns: Priests and Veterans.

For the Priest, it makes some sense as it is an upgrade from their stock Laspistol in the event you want something that shoots further. Why it's not a lasgun is anyone's guess, but within the context of the entry it has a purpose.

For Veterans, it sticks out because it does not do anything different from the stock lasgun. As always, they're basically identical.

Nothing else gets the autogun in that Codex either (and the Veterans did not get it in the Index either), so it's really weird that it is there at all. Even from a fluff perspective it's out of place (it's just as weak as a lasgun, but now you have to worry about ammo).

So...what's up with that?

M.

just in case you wanted to FRFSRF them for some weird reason this way you cant. lol

I think the veteran seargent had the option for an autogun right up til the last codex, it never made any difference since 3rd but it was just there. I have a feeling there was maybe a sarge model with an autogun around at some point? To be honest im not totally sure. Its been there before, its back again.

Maybe it's to encourage people to use Necromunda gangs as their Veterans? IIRC the majority of those gangers get autoguns rather than lasguns.

It's fluffy for units like Ork Hunters, who need the dakka to suppress orks.
In previous Codices you had the option of autoguns instead of lasguns for everyone, to represent regiments from low tech worlds. They did work the same way though.

In Necromunda the two weapons are (were?) a bit different; Lasguns are more reliable but more expensive than auto guns. Auto guns could be suppressed with the addition of a suppressor (aka. "silencer") though, handy to have in some scenarios.

Why not? IMO 40k needs more stuff like that. It allows me to arm my Guardsmen with AKs, and doesn’t cause any real problems with rules bloat. It’s a blessing for converters.

 Verviedi wrote:
Why not? IMO 40k needs more stuff like that. It allows me to arm my Guardsmen with AKs, and doesn’t cause any real problems with rules bloat. It’s a blessing for converters.

True, and honestly I wish the Guard codex was brimming with the ability to trim up your army with just about anything you want. But given that this isn't the case, it just sticks out as odd for being in just that one entry.

M.

 Verviedi wrote:
Why not? IMO 40k needs more stuff like that. It allows me to arm my Guardsmen with AKs, and doesn’t cause any real problems with rules bloat. It’s a blessing for converters.

But since autoguns and lasguns have the same rules it wouldnt make sense not to use your autoguns as lasguns, since AKs arent affected by Rank Fire.

It is an oddity to be sure, maybe its a typo?

Infantryman wrote:Only two things in the AM Codex get autoguns: Priests and Veterans.

For the Priest, it makes some sense as it is an upgrade from their stock Laspistol in the event you want something that shoots further. Why it's not a lasgun is anyone's guess, but within the context of the entry it has a purpose.

For Veterans, it sticks out because it does not do anything different from the stock lasgun. As always, they're basically identical.

Nothing else gets the autogun in that Codex either (and the Veterans did not get it in the Index either), so it's really weird that it is there at all. Even from a fluff perspective it's out of place (it's just as weak as a lasgun, but now you have to worry about ammo).

So...what's up with that?

M.

my guess would be because several of the converted regiments they show use Geanstealer cult bits now. It's essentially a way to use those leftover autogun arms.

Why on earth we get autoguns, but have no options to put shotguns on officers anymore, no options for demo charges, etc. but they felt autoguns were a fine substitution is beyond me, it makes no real sense.

master of ordinance wrote:It is an oddity to be sure, maybe its a typo?

Nope it's deliberate, has the stats, points cost, rules, everything. Makes it all the more baffling.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Why on earth we get autoguns, but have no options to put shotguns on officers anymore, no options for demo charges, etc. but they felt autoguns were a fine substitution is beyond me, it makes no real sense.

I will say this time around it feels like Guard/AM has a lot less ability to really represent all those thousands of worlds and their unique approach to the war efforts. Maybe it was all just bloat?

(I still remember my old Penal Squad - in 4e you got to call on all kinds of kit to equip them all individually. I had a 4+ save squad of bolters and demo charges for a bit!)

Still, though, strange. Doubly so that it was *added* after the Index!

M.

123ply wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Why not? IMO 40k needs more stuff like that. It allows me to arm my Guardsmen with AKs, and doesn’t cause any real problems with rules bloat. It’s a blessing for converters.

But since autoguns and lasguns have the same rules it wouldnt make sense not to use your autoguns as lasguns, since AKs arent affected by Rank Fire.

Flavor is important. I want to feel the dakka, not the pew pew.

Makes me wonder why we can't take a squad Heavy Stubber, perhaps as a "Special Weapon" slot item, if not a heavy one.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
Makes me wonder why we can't take a squad Heavy Stubber, perhaps as a "Special Weapon" slot item, if not a heavy one.

M.

I always felt it would be a good 2-3pt heavy weapon.

It's really not that good or even necessary for IG, you'd mainly just bring it for flavor. Keeping it cheap gives it a niche and lets people model up cool teams if for nothing more than eye candy. I know the Krieg get a twin linked version.

In 7th ed they also had standard heavy stubbers for Grenadier squads as special weapons.

GW being silly and illogical. They are removing options without models but somehow this stays there. You could arque backward compatibility for those who have old models BUT same could be said of other such options and nobody sane would play autoguns as autoguns anyway. All would be count as lasguns. Why take weapon that is equal in most aspects, worse in one big aspect and has no redeeming qualities...

So yeah. GW being silly and illogical.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I always felt it would be a good 2-3pt heavy weapon.

Hello dirt cheap heavy weapon squads!

tneva82 wrote:
GW being silly and illogical. They are removing options without models but somehow this stays there. You could arque backward compatibility for those who have old models BUT same could be said of other such options and nobody sane would play autoguns as autoguns anyway. All would be count as lasguns. Why take weapon that is equal in most aspects, worse in one big aspect and has no redeeming qualities...

So yeah. GW being silly and illogical.

Or just do what they did with the DG codex- "Sorry bud, there's no Nurgle Lords, Sorcerers or Possessed models available so we'll just put them in the army book as there's generic versions of them but give them none of the associated special rules or increased toughness the rest of the army has. Okay?"

tneva82 wrote:
GW being silly and illogical. They are removing options without models but somehow this stays there. You could arque backward compatibility for those who have old models BUT same could be said of other such options and nobody sane would play autoguns as autoguns anyway. All would be count as lasguns. Why take weapon that is equal in most aspects, worse in one big aspect and has no redeeming qualities...

So yeah. GW being silly and illogical.

And then on top of it they remove options that DO actually have models but simply aren't in production anymore.

Like the world is a better place because eviscerators disappeared or something.

 Bobthehero wrote:
In 7th ed they also had standard heavy stubbers for Grenadier squads as special weapons.

Ah, Grenadiers - another thing that seems to have vanished for this edition.

M.

They're sorta here, like the '' at ease '' squad, they'll come back at some point, the special/heavy weapon models are still avaiable and as far as I know they got an entry in the Krieg list.

genestealer cults are why they have the autogun option?

 sfshilo wrote:
genestealer cults are why they have the autogun option?

It's the only thing I can come up with. There are no official IG models sold with autoguns anymore and they haven't even been an option in our codex from 5th-7th.


Since GW likes to use the Geanstealer cult kits to kitbash Savlar chemdogs and other regiments, it's the only thing that makes sense. You'd have a ton of autogun arms laying around so I guess they just assume you'd like a way to use them with your guard.

But if that's the case, why remove shotguns from various units, and demo charges, when those are also options on the genestealer cult box?


You see why we're confused here.

 Verviedi wrote:
Why not? IMO 40k needs more stuff like that. It allows me to arm my Guardsmen with AKs, and doesn’t cause any real problems with rules bloat. It’s a blessing for converters.

Disagree. It's a textbook example of rules bloat. It's an option that exists in the rules despite having literally zero purpose. The only conceivable situation where the difference between a lasgun and an autogun becomes relevant is with FRFSRF, where having an autogun makes your unit worse and gains nothing in return. There is literally no possible situation where you would ever choose the autogun rules over the lasgun rules, even if your guardsmen are modeled with AKs they will use the lasgun rules.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
genestealer cults are why they have the autogun option?

It's the only thing I can come up with. There are no official IG models sold with autoguns anymore and they haven't even been an option in our codex from 5th-7th.


Since GW likes to use the Geanstealer cult kits to kitbash Savlar chemdogs and other regiments, it's the only thing that makes sense. You'd have a ton of autogun arms laying around so I guess they just assume you'd like a way to use them with your guard.

But if that's the case, why remove shotguns from various units, and demo charges, when those are also options on the genestealer cult box?


You see why we're confused here.

Thank you for cluing me into that kit - I'd never really looked at them and I'm impressed by some of the Bitz. I'm now somewhat considering using those Autogun arms...any idea how well they work on Cadian bodies?

At the very least, I think I know where I'll get Shotguns for any Veterans I run in my AM force...

I do see what Peregrine is getting at, though, as it does seem to actively be a worse choice. Kind of the thing that confuses me, though, is that it's on just two units - and only one troop option. You'd figure it would either be there for taking or not at all.

As is, Autoguns for typical Guard forces - which largely seem to be offensive military units doesn't make much fluff-sense - it's another layer of logistics that needs handled. The Lasgun's saving grace is that you don't have to figure out how to truck hundreds of thousands of bullets out to your combat zone.

(For PDFs of lower tech worlds, sure, I guess I can buy off on having them.)

Would be nice to see more options, though! As I keep plugging, we should expect the guard to be saturated with things just to represent the universe at large. Instead we get some...doctrines.

Well, at least I can field Malkadors and stuff.

M.

If you want to go off of old lore and things like FFG, an autogun would have way higher of a firerate and more "oomph" to the bullet impact. They could also take a wide variety of ammo, like armor piercing or hollow points. If autoguns had been given a cheapo version of sternguard ammo, where say you could pick from different ammo types that had different trade offs (AP, Strength, RoF) than autoguns would be a cool and useful addition.

However, autoguns are identical to lasguns in 40k 8th edition so as Peregrine says, they literally serve no purpose mechanically. If they had any niche, even making the unit cheaper, I could see a point, but as it is they are objectively worse lasguns. Shotguns at least have assault and a strength bonus in short range. They're still normally inferior to a lasgun in almost all situations but you can theoretically come up with a use for them.

If we were going to give veterans any sort of additional weapons, I'm surprised it's not hotshot lasguns, considering in the lore you hear of veteran or elite regiments armed with them from time to time. Heck you even have things like Cadian Kasrkin or the Krieg Engineer and Grenadier units. At the very least by GW giving us this option to take autoguns on vets it begs the question of why we lost other options that we've historically had models for and can even convert from modern plastic kits.

Fluffy options are great... but autoguns? Honest to god why. Not only are there no models for it, you're actively shooting yourself in the foot. Most of the strength of infantry guard comes from FRFSRF. You're giving up one of your main strengths for nothing in return.

Now maybe if autoguns had like... 20" range and -1ap giving up some range and FRFSRF might be worth it.

ThePorcupine wrote:
Now maybe if autoguns had like... 20" range and -1ap giving up some range and FRFSRF might be worth it.

If an Autogun had -1 AP and a Bolter didn't, I'd be seriously questioning the forge world supplying my Chaos Space Marines and Cultists...

I think the main issue is the distinction between the Autogun and the Lasgun - they're basically the same weapon, just without access to FRFSRF. I modelled a lot of my Cultists with Lasguns because they're traitor guardsmen. I don't know why they're not just treated as the same weapon, in this new era of streamlining. Heck, if you're concerned about making older models obsolete (something that doesn't seem to be a problem everywhere else you look), just add a note to the bottom of the entry that any models armed with autoguns should be treated as lasguns for gaming purposes? People should be able to model up low-tech PDF forces with all autoguns and still get the benefits of FRFSRF because... rule of cool. Rule of cool is where it's at.

I think treating autoguns as lasguns, FRSRF included, should be perfectly acceptable.

My Valhallan Recruits use Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifles as Lasguns and I haven't heard any complaints about that so far.

Raichase wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:
Now maybe if autoguns had like... 20" range and -1ap giving up some range and FRFSRF might be worth it.

If an Autogun had -1 AP and a Bolter didn't, I'd be seriously questioning the forge world supplying my Chaos Space Marines and Cultists...

I think the main issue is the distinction between the Autogun and the Lasgun - they're basically the same weapon, just without access to FRFSRF. I modelled a lot of my Cultists with Lasguns because they're traitor guardsmen. I don't know why they're not just treated as the same weapon, in this new era of streamlining. Heck, if you're concerned about making older models obsolete (something that doesn't seem to be a problem everywhere else you look), just add a note to the bottom of the entry that any models armed with autoguns should be treated as lasguns for gaming purposes? People should be able to model up low-tech PDF forces with all autoguns and still get the benefits of FRFSRF because... rule of cool. Rule of cool is where it's at.

Yeah, more support for primitive worlds would be cool. Tau have (Had?) Kroot, why can't we :p

Also, there's nothing inherent to the technologies of a lasgun that make ranked fire possible so it just makes sense.

Esmer wrote:I think treating autoguns as lasguns, FRSRF included, should be perfectly acceptable.

My Valhallan Recruits use Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifles as Lasguns and I haven't heard any complaints about that so far.

Got some pics? I'm sort of modeling my guys off of a mix of Imperial and Soviet Russia (mostly Soviet) and might gain some inspiration.

M.