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Wayniac wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
I just read what I think is a passage from Devastation of Baal where Dante and Seth are talking about the primaris, and Dante is basically completely cucked by Guilliman and saying they are our salvation because they aren't flawed, and Seth goes all meta and points out that without the flaws, they aren't of Sanguinius' lineage and will basically be Ultramarines wearing red armor, and that primaris aren't salvation but replacement.

Which is absolutely what GW seems to want to do. The primaris are perfect; they have no flaws of any kind that distinguish them from any other. They're scrubbing all the flaws that made the legions unique. They are literal mary sues.

They appear to be knowledging that not everybody in the setting likes Primaris, at least in the novels. This new novel for Dark Angels works the same. They basically don't want Primaris near them or the secrets of the Inner Circle, and the new primaris Dark Angels are like "Dude wtf we are here to help".
I only hope that this is not the case of putting all the "Omg primaris suck" sentiment into a character to then reveal he is the bad one, and if you are a good servant of the emperor you'll accept Primaris with open arms.

That seems to be precisely what they're going to do.

Interesting read. So in future SM chapters with their primaris dudes will be like soccer clubs. Different jerseys will be the only things that helps to differentiate them. In one year they might fight for the Dark Angels chapter but if they think red would suit them more they will fight with Dante.

I hope not. Well, I guess the coming Blood- and Dark Angels codices will be a pretty good indication whether or not they'll remain worth playing and collecting, at least for the next couple of years.

I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

 Xenomancers wrote:


I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

That's a bit... far-fetched. Still if something like that happens I guess I'll just have my Space Wolves go renegade, play them with World Eater rules and take my revenge on those Imperial scumbags

I hate primaris. They have terrible rules. Models are pretty good, nothing special. Every primaris list I've seen hit the table loses. Badly.

The distinction between the Primaris and non-primaris is awkward. Now the chapters have had the ability to create their own Primaris marines over hundred years, so I'd assume any suspicions about them would have been already resolved and phasing out of the old type of marines would be progressing in fast pace. Pretty much any marine younger than a century would be a Primaris (even assuming that the news about being able to upgrade existing marines into Primaris was false.) But it doesn't make sense that this would affect how the chapters organise their units. Are Primaris marines somehow genetically unable to hold a lascannon or a power axe? I'd imagine that for example Space Wolves would be like 'Now all our marines can be like Ranulf the Strong, cool!" but then continue to equip and organise their units the way they've always done.

Martel732 wrote:
I hate primaris. They have terrible rules. Models are pretty good, nothing special. Every primaris list I've seen hit the table loses. Badly.

I just beat Necrons with my all prim army 4-0.

I mostly like Primaris rules, I just wish they had more customisation options. They may be a tad overcosted, but they are individually powerful on the table, so they actually feel like elite super soldiers.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.

Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.

You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.

Bremon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.

Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.

You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.

Hrm, I would question this analogy. First, many of the chapters in question are ostensibly Codex adherent in the first place (Dark Angels and Blood Angels and their successors). Second, for the most part, they all share the same equipment (a Space Wolf predator and an Ultramarines Predator or a Dark Angels predator are all the exact same vehicle, a Baal predator has a simple weapon swap and a souped up engine but is otherwise identical, they all wear the same Marks of power armor, their Boltguns are all largely the same, etc), and all have insanely huge logistic requirements for even the smallest of operations and build everything on similar patterns. Third, at least with Space Marine chapters, we're talking about a very small number of very small fighting forces that don't really have separate branches, that can take years or decades to replace even the most trivial of losses and take years, centuries or millenia for changes in equipment or doctrine or whatnot to filter through.

Really, for the most part, comparing Space Marine chapters is much more akin to comparing two different special operations groups within the same military than comparing vastly different national militaries.

^although many of their founders had differing philosophies, and there's been thousands of years since of independent operation. Imo it's a bit miraculous that they're so similar. Chalk it up to the strictness/religious adherence to the codex for most Chapters, maybe.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

It is funny how attitudes change over a short period of time. Just a few months ago a lot of people would fight me tooth and nail about the notion of SM being eventually replaced by primaris. Nowadays it is a well accepted truth.

Blackie wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:

Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves

Spoiler:

Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets

Ughh

I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.

 Crimson wrote:
The distinction between the Primaris and non-primaris is awkward. Now the chapters have had the ability to create their own Primaris marines over hundred years, so I'd assume any suspicions about them would have been already resolved and phasing out of the old type of marines would be progressing in fast pace. Pretty much any marine younger than a century would be a Primaris (even assuming that the news about being able to upgrade existing marines into Primaris was false.) But it doesn't make sense that this would affect how the chapters organise their units. Are Primaris marines somehow genetically unable to hold a lascannon or a power axe? I'd imagine that for example Space Wolves would be like 'Now all our marines can be like Ranulf the Strong, cool!" but then continue to equip and organise their units the way they've always done.

That's the way in which I could dig Space Wolves (gonna talk just about SW here because I play them) going all Primaris. Have them have Primaris units with their own distinct Space Wolf flavor and equipment; Versatile, strong in CC and on the ground but a bit weaker at long range and in the air than Codex Astartes marines. I'd love them to have stuff like dedicated CC Agressors and a sword 'n board Redemptor dread, but I definitely would not like it if they were to become a footnote in the Space/ Ultramarines codex.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:

Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets

Ughh

I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everything to such a massive degree.

This. The moronic gimicks attached to those chapters have made them impossible to take seriously, so I'm totally down with with them slowly being removed from history.

says the guy with the Ultramarine avatar which is literally the most boring chapter that could do with phasing out. The background to the alternative chapters like the Angels and Wolves are the last bastion of what makes marines interesting. The Primaris are mostly terrible but I do like the dread.

 Brutallica wrote:
The name calling on SW's behalf is abit...meh.. I really like how they do it in Horus Heresy. Way more awsome and viking'esque. I love the Wulfen, but the name is... There is defenetly better options than wulfen wulfy.

Also Logan Grimnar on Sled is so stupid, i REALLY liked that lord, but now he is just feels like a joke (his rules are a joke but, but thats another story). I dont even know what to do with the sled, i cant see any possible way of using it, execpt if i made a giant mead hall scenery or something...but im not. Btw wolves are not sled dogs, it kills the whole "free spirited beats, doing their thing" turning them into "domesticated work breed". Same goes for TWC, never really liked them much either. Wanna be freind with a wolf, be the leader, thrive together (Leman Russ wolves are perfect), dont humiliate them into a donky.

Put him on a flyer stand and place him over your Nativity scene around Christmas.

Bremon wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

imagine a military faction that is composed of not every military of every country on earth, but in the galaxy. That’s like saying “Imagine If America, UK, Russia and France all had unique advantages and disadvantages. It just sounds stupid, doesn’t it?”.

Sounds realistic to me. Especially when even in an individual country the armed forces consist of different branches and divisions, etc.

You and I seemingly have different hopes for the future of this game.

It's more akin to if we had a game about all the armies on earth, but half of them were variants of the US military, like we had a codex for army, marines, paratroopers, delta force, Seal Team 6 etc, and every other country considered themselves lucky to get a single book.

That's what the whole situation with marines is like. Even Chaos, a faction that is constantly stated to be made up of all types of people from lowly cultists, to traitor guard, to chaos tech priests to daemon lords,to even entire species of xenos, is about 2/3 space marines units, and if you go by codex 3 of the 4 are dominated by chaos marine options. Yet there are no chaos admech, no chaos guard, no renegades. That's why people aren't really shedding tears at the thought of space marines getting consolidated into a single book, at most 3 (I can see a legitimate reason for Grey Knights to be part of an Inquisition style dex along with deathwatch and space wolves getting their own codex just because they've completely gone off the rails in terms of wolf stuff). Black Templar got folded in after all, and they're not even codex compliant like blood angels and Dark Angels are! Why do space marines get to be the exception when everyone else is stuck to one to 2 books per army type? And to add to that, how come White Scars aren't unique enough to get their own codex? How about Imperial Fists? Those are first founding chapters with just as much clout as the others, how come they don't get their own codexes?

For example, IG has way more diversity in how their various regiments and planets can be outfitted and fight than the space marines can ever hope to be. We can have regiments entirely made up of feral tribesman armed with bows and muskets, to high tech regiments in carapace armor with hellguns, mentioned time and again in the lore with rich traditions and backgrounds. We have entire paratrooper regiments, siege regiments, armored regiments, artillery regiments, mechanized regiments, cavalry regiments, and countless more formations that number in the thousands to the hundreds of thousands, cranked out by the dozen every year. On top of that any given planet can put out a wide variety of regiment types from infantry to tanks to horsemen armed with lances. How come we don't have 8 different codexes with fringe units and options? Because 95% of it can be represented with a basic codex with the fringe options covered by forgeworld, and a few options in the book like regiment traits, relics, warlord traits, etc. This is the situation Space Marines should be in. I know people don't like to admit it, but the vast majority of the special chapters out there can easily be represented by a few special units, their heroes, and a few unique traits in a single combined book. It's getting a bit ridiculous that warhammer claims to have this massively varied game yet literally half of all the codexes and books out there are either marines or chaos marines. Blood Angels for example really aren't much different to Space Marines as say DKOK are compared to Imperial Guard. Why do they need their own codex as opposed to a basic 40k codex and some cool Forgeworld options?

"But what does it matter? It's not like it hurts the game." Ok, so we're in 8th edition now. How many codexes are NOT about marines? Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Eldar, Admech, and maybe Daemons if they get out in time. Now how many space marines? Space marines, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, Death Guard, Blood Angels, and Dark angels. That's 5 non marines to 6 marines. Had the marines been consolidated into say 2 books, that's 4 more entirely unique and diverse armies we could've already had up and running. That's your orks, Necrons, Tau, and Dark Eldar, all far more varied armies all ready to go in a 6 months time. The stupid amount of space marines codexes we have right now has been hurting the game for years and has partly been why we've never seen a full codex line revamp for an edition. It eats up a ton of time and resources that could've been put into things like revamping the Sisters line, getting traitor IG and admech out, updating outdated sprues like the majority of the IG infantry, etc. And they have more excuse for being consolidated than anyone else. How many other armies can you completely revamp with a single upgrade sprue like space marines? I can't take Cadians and make them vostroyans with a simple upgrade sprue, but you can bet I can take any space marine model and doll it up to be blood angels with their upgrade sprue. And on top of that, think about how many kits all these variant space marine chapters need. Your average store isn't going to have that much room, and even a GW store is fairly small. With the amount of unique space marine things we have, about half the store is taken up by some form of power armor. This means actually new armies don't get released or get shelf space since after all, where are you supposed to put the new Sisters of Battle army when half the store is taken up by space marines?

So... yeah, sorry to rant but the absolutely bonkers amount of space marine codexes has annoyed me for a long time. I was hoping the Black Templar being rolled into space marines was the sign things were changing but alas that wasn't to be. I'd prefer GW didn't try to softball it in by just saying the chapters lost their individuality because of Primaris, I wish they'd just rip the bandaid off and say "sorry, we should've had the variant chapters put back in the main codex like this years ago." It would help the health of the game immensely and give the potential for so much variety to come back to the game. There's especially little excuse when the IG codex proved you can have several radically different forces able to be built from a single book with just a few tweaks, so it's not even like GW can claim the various chapters need their own books to keep their individuality.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Its better than the increasingly awful parodies of themselves that many of the "special chapters" have become:

Wulfy Wulf Wulf Wolves on Wolves
Bloody Vampire Blod Angels with blood powers
Dark Angels with Dark vehcilces and Dark Secrets

Ughh

I hope that they keep the background flavour of the Chapters but no longer feel they have to flanderise everythign to such a massive degree.

Very much this, and not limited to marines either.

If I were in charge of GW, I'd just retcon all fluff written after 2005 or so.

Personally I've never understood the vitriol between different players directed at other's armies. I love the SW and BA fluff, as well as the DA. I love the fact that they're different. When the game came out there was a sense of mystery and excitement about the different chapters. I for one hope they never lose their unique qualities.

I am also not a fan of primaris, at all. At least not how they've been presented. That being said, I'm all for people being excited for the units. To each their own.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

For example, IG has way more diversity in how their various regiments and planets can be outfitted and fight than the space marines can ever hope to be. We can have regiments entirely made up of feral tribesman armed with bows and muskets, to high tech regiments in carapace armor with hellguns, mentioned time and again in the lore with rich traditions and backgrounds. Because 95% of it can be represented with a basic codex with the fringe options covered by forgeworld, and a few options in the book like regiment traits, relics, warlord traits, etc.

Eh, kindasortanotreally. I still can't have nearly the creative control the lore hints at. But hey, at least we got many different kinds of tanks!

M.

Future War Cultist wrote:It's still possible to condense all ten chapters into one book whilst retaining a slight level of individuality. A chapter tactic and warlord trait for each one, their own stratagems and relics...hell, you could probably still fit the more unique physic powers in as well. Like the Librarian could choose either Unleash Rage, Storm Caller or Mind Worm (chapter dependent) instead of one of the main table powers. It would be a shame to lose the individuality of the individual books but regardless of that I think that GW is aiming to bring them all under one banner with the Primaris marines being front and center. And once that begins there's no going back.

Ten? I think your count is WAY off, unless you just lump anyone not hardcore variant as "Ultramarines"...

Xenomancers wrote:I love primaris - old marines are already dead to me. I would love some more options on the characters but I just can't bring myself to play a space marine tike when I can take a primaris intercessor who actually looks imposing and powerful.

Secondis marines can't go fast enough if you ask me.

As far as chapters go. There are only a few I can take seriously. Considering these are supposed to be the imperials elite warriors. I would expect them to all be "chapter compliant" anything else is beyond imagination. Imagine a military force today where every "division" has some unique gimmick about it - it just sounds stupid doesn't it?

I'm not sure I hope this happens but I think it might happen. Guilliman is going to eventually phase out the non compliant chapters. It might make for a good bit of drama and game play as the forces of the imperium eliminate all the non compliant chapters who resist against the imperium and end up slaughtered. Then GW can take space marines in a different direction.

... like this guy wants to have happen.


GW loses a bit of its identity every year, and every year through retconning to get bad fiction to line up with other bad fiction, the background loses a bit of its identity every year. At this rate, we're going to be down to a complicated version of checkers during my lifetime. And that I don't want at all.

I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.

The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.

 Blackie wrote:
I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.

The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.

Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?

 Formosa wrote:
Ok blood angels and space wolves i can understand? but what are the stupid gimicks of dark angels?

Plasma guns, for some reason.

I'd wager that "terminators can equipl plasma cannons" is not in the same league as Murderfang from the Planet Murder with Murderclaws.

DA have SOME of that stupidity as well, but it is far less over the top.
Dark Talon, Darkshroud, Black Knights come to mind. But since it's not that overdone, it adds character.
It's also a bit more spread out with the diversity between Deathwing and Ravenwing plus the knightmonkish appearance of the Greenwing and the whole repentance thing.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Ok blood angels and space wolves i can understand? but what are the stupid gimicks of dark angels?

Plasma guns, for some reason.

Well they are not as bad as WULFY WULF Marines or Bloody Blood Vampires but they have begun to follow that dismal road to flanderisation with increasing DARK vehicles and units. I still have a decent sized DA army but the potential Traitor / EMO fluff and anything about the Lion in the last few years makes them less attractive for me to play.

They already had more than enough character for a mainly codex adherent Chapter with the Deathwing and Ravenwing - both really old and still good.

The non snowflake chapters have lots of interesting fluff for actual non flanderised units as well but seldom get more than a look in - no dedicated stealth /sniper teams for Ravenguard, no Special terminators for Salamanders etc etc. One interesting unit per Chapter would have been much more interesting IMO than the constant need to retcon in new units for the snowflake Chapters.

Its the same issue with Marines and other armies just within the Marines bubble - if you just make stuff for a limited range, then yeah shock horror that the stuff you sell. Its a self fulfilling prophecy.

Personally I doubt GW is going to phase out the different chapters. They are probably far too popular for that. Added to that, it seems to be pretty simple to plan for GW to have different chapters use mostly the same models, with just 1 or 2 sprues added to individualize the chapters.

As for the Primaris, I love the quality of the models. So much more detail, so much better proportioned. I would hope though that they do make future Primaris kits a bit darker, a bit less polished. It would fit with the narrative I think. When they arrived first, fresh from the assembly lines they were picture perfect marines. Identical weapons, perfectly polished armor. But after centuries of fighting, far away from the Forges of Mars, the equipment becomes less standard. They become indoctrinated more by the Chapters they joined., taking over iconography, different weapons. I was a bit disappointed by the Primaris tank. I think it looks too cluttered.

Also it's clear to me Primaris are not finished. Current Primaris rules and point costs are simply not competitive in any form. I use Primaris as truescale marines, little reason to use them as Primaris.

 Trade_Prince wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.

The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.

Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?

I admit it, size is their biggest problem, but I don't like the current GW policy about making everything huge. This combined to the asthetics of basic SM, which I never liked, makes me hate the primaris

 Blackie wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I've never been fond of the SM miniatures, but IMHO primaris are the worst GW models in decades along with guilliman. I really hope they won't phase out regular SM, especially the independent chapters.

The fact that GW didn't make primaris particularly competitive allows me to be optimistic about this matter.

Now THIS I do not get at all. I see no redeeming features in the classic Marines, outside of chapter-specific iconography, when compared to Primaris. They are essentially the same just with better proprotions, appropriate size and being an all around better sculpt. I get nostalgia and I know how it can make something look far better, but c'mon this is supposed to be a superior model compares to this?

I admit it, size is their biggest problem, but I don't like the current GW policy about making everything huge. This combined to the asthetics of basic SM, which I never liked, makes me hate the primaris

Space Marines figures have always been pretty small compared to the 2nd /3rd edition and onwards fluff

@ Malachon

You’re right, they aren’t finished. We don’t even have a Primarus Techmarine yet.

I think they have a bright future though. I’d bet money we’ll see Primarus jetbikes one day among other units.