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As it is now, they just dont seem to get the job done.

Should they have an extra attack?
More weapons options?
But then they would be Vanguard.

Cant really make them cheaper without changing all other space marines.

Maybe hammer of wrath that does mortal wounds?


What do you think?

Units can be priced independent of each other; lowering the cost of one unit doesn't mean you need to lower the cost of the rest of the army.

I think a simple special rule that only applied to assault marines would do it, something that would show the difference between a marine with access to special weapons and jump packs and a marine that is dedicated to close combat but only basic. Something like "if an assault marine uses a chainsword in melee it gets +2 attacks instead of +1". Would it be enough? Don't know. But it would be different enough to make them unique.

They are a victim of an ever-escalating game system. Before, a marine with 2 attacks and a jump pack plus a good melee weapon on the sgt was plenty for damage (when I say before, I mean back in the day!). Now, if your assault unit doesn't have 4+ attacks with some minus to the AP or multiple damage then it's just not worth it. Now, take a few plasma pistols plus maybe a powerfist and go after a squishy/shooty unit at the back.

Nothing that I can think of.

I'm thinking maybe a 5 man squad with 3 plasma pistols might be slightly less useless. But only slightly, and only against certain targets. And pray you don't roll 1's when you overheat their pistols.

As for how to improve the unit in general, I'm not sure there is a way. Reducing the cost of them is the only thing I can think of. If they only costed 11 points each, they'd be as cheap as scouts but fill a different niche. That might be the only possible solution, as improving other stats would tread on other units as an above poster mentioned. Giving them a HoW-type ability kind of like what Inceptors have could make at least the jump pack variety good.

Space Marines are just badly designed in 8th edition. I'm not sure what can be done to fix them.

I'd say "increase the attacks," or "increase the toughness," but the problem is even with changes like that, would still be flatly inferior units to what other factions have.

I feel bad for marines. A year from now when all the codexes are out they're going to be the worst army out there. The primaris marines are just terrible, there's one gimmick with raven guard that makes one of the primaris units viable, but only if your opponent has never seen the trick before and can't plan for it.

Unless chapter approved has some massive rebalances, these guys will be screwed until 9th.

Bringing back CCW + Pistol -> +1 Attack would be a start. No idea how long that's been out of the game.

Maybe allowing pistols to be shot in hand to hand would help. Plasma pistols in that would be something to behold.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
Bringing back CCW + Pistol -> +1 Attack would be a start. No idea how long that's been out of the game.

Maybe allowing pistols to be shot in hand to hand would help. Plasma pistols in that would be something to behold.

M.

They already get +1 attack with a chainsword + pistol, and all pistols can be shot while being engaged in hand to hand combat.

pismakron wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Bringing back CCW + Pistol -> +1 Attack would be a start. No idea how long that's been out of the game.

Maybe allowing pistols to be shot in hand to hand would help. Plasma pistols in that would be something to behold.

M.

They already get +1 attack with a chainsword + pistol, and all pistols can be shot while being engaged in hand to hand combat.

Hm, I missed the part about the pistol in CC, honestly. That said, the combo does not get you extra attacks - but having a chainsword does let you attack twice for having it.

M.

I don't think making assault squads (or devastators for that matter) cheaper would be that out of place, since the fluff describes them as being tacticals in training. The problem is that in order to keep to the fluff any kind of special rule you give assaults you'd then have to keep to tacticals.

On the other hand, Assault squads aren't meant to be as good in a melee fight as, say, berzerkers or genestealers or ork boyz. Expecting them to be that is just going to lead to disappointed

I would say give them a further +1 attack if they charge. At least, that make them back to their level of offense compare to last edition. This edition actually nerfed them even by Space Marine's poor standard.

They partly suffer from their name being a misnomer.

Assault squad /= send them in toe-to-toe with dedicated enemy assault units and expect them to do a job.

The broad, very broad idea of a generalist army like Space Marines is to shoot the assaulty ones and assault the shooty ones. Assault Marines are to what you send against enemy snipers, line infantry, devastators, etc.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
I don't think making assault squads (or devastators for that matter) cheaper would be that out of place, since the fluff describes them as being tacticals in training. The problem is that in order to keep to the fluff any kind of special rule you give assaults you'd then have to keep to tacticals.

On the other hand, Assault squads aren't meant to be as good in a melee fight as, say, berzerkers or genestealers or ork boyz. Expecting them to be that is just going to lead to disappointed

I'll give you Berzerkers and Genestealers, but c'mon normal Boyz? A squad of assault Marines should be more than a match in close combat with some dumb greenskins! Orks should obviously have the numbers advantage but trained, power armoured, genetically enhanced supermen should be cutting down 2-3 at once!

Point for point, Ork boyz will slaughter pretty much any other unit in close combat. There's a reason why they compose the near entirety of the only viable Ork build, and why they're one of the poster boys of everything that's wrong with 8th edition's horde problems.

To be honest the best way I can think of is to introduce yet another set of Chapter Tactics that would make Assault Marines good. The reason I say is this two-fold:

-- Balancing is an issue which is never as simple as "Give it X and/or Remove Y before changing the points." It's always going to be more complex than that.

-- Having Chapter Tactics that allow them a buff or something cool affords them a cool ability that gives the desired without requiring a re-balance of at least the codex. Take, for example, the fact that Imperial Fists Devastators don't need to be re-costed because they ignore Cover.

SM Assault squads demonstrate the core problems with assault in 8th edition. As such I'm not sure there's much you can do to fix them, so fundamental are the problems they have. In a nutshell, they have neither the damage output nor resilience to cause problems. If you can't cause lots of damage, you'll just end up being shot to death when the enemy falls back, having killed a tiny number of enemy models. If you don't have good resilience you'll die very easily to this retaliation.

If you compare close combat to shooting, I think the problem is shooting is both safer and does more damage because it's so much easier to get multi-damage weapons for shooting units compared to assault units. If I charge a tank or a monster there are very few units in the game that are as threatening to that model as a basic shooting unit like 5 Devastators or a battle tank.

Maybe making it harder to fall back from Assault Marines might help, but then you still have to deal with the fact they don't actually kill anything.

 Infantryman wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
Bringing back CCW + Pistol -> +1 Attack would be a start. No idea how long that's been out of the game.

Maybe allowing pistols to be shot in hand to hand would help. Plasma pistols in that would be something to behold.

M.

They already get +1 attack with a chainsword + pistol, and all pistols can be shot while being engaged in hand to hand combat.

Hm, I missed the part about the pistol in CC, honestly. That said, the combo does not get you extra attacks - but having a chainsword does let you attack twice for having it.

M.

Yeah, it does. You get one attack base (1), an extra attack for having a chainsword (2) and you get to fire your pistol in your shooting phase (3, assuming you live that long). Granted that shooting attack is only really worth half an attack at best, but it's better than nothing. About the only other way to do it and retain standardisation scross the board would be to drop the marine chassis by a point or 2, then bump up the cost of a bolter and all the various weapons marines can take by the same 1-2 points. Alternatively, cutting the cost of jump packs down (for non-characters) would achieve the same deal with less buggering around, but that might cause issues with other JP units (like VV) or those who have the JP costs built in (like warp talons).

To be honest though, you've got a sliding scale of hardness on your assault options - ASM --> VV --> Terminators that are intended for engaging a sliding scale of punchy options - chaff/ranged --> combat capable --> combat specialist. Putting ASM against 'zerks or 'stealers is never going to end well when they're meant to be beating up on devastator equivalents. I'm not saying ASM are great, or even good, just that there needs to be a certain role for them that they can fill without stepping too hard on the toes of "proper" assault options.

In regard to the core topic, this is the guidance I would apply:
- 8th edition is intended to be simpler. Adding a special rule is a step in the wrong direction
- Adjusting core rules is an option to fix some game-wide problems, such as the low cost of falling back, if you consider that to be a problem
- Adjusting the cost of one unit doesn’t mean you need to adjust the cost of a unit that fills a different role i.e. the cost of assault marines isn’t pegged to the cost of tactical marines.
- All things can be balanced on points. If it’s not effective enough, make it cheaper and take more.

With those guidelines, for me the best option is to adjust fallback globally. And if you don’t want to do that, then adjust assault marine cost down 2 points per model.

They pay a premium for the mobility options they have which allow them (in theory) to pick their fights against enemies they can take on. Maybe more/cheaper flamer options and a low level rending effect on the chainswords (-1AP when a 6 is rolled to wound) would fix things if they are a problem.

Mark.

You know, between this thread and the long argument in the FRFSRF thread about how terrible bolter marines are, I'm starting to wonder if GW shouldn't just go ahead and phase out oldmarines, like everyone's paranoid that they will.

I don't think the assault marines are really the problem in and of themselves. GW's wild arms race eclipsed them quite a while ago. I have assault marines (well, Raptors) and run them anyway. My chosen legion tactic (Renegades) lets me advance and charge, so that's something.

The problem definitely lies elsewhere with other armies, which were, at best poorly planned. People have pointed out Ork boyz which are probably the biggest "wtf" unit on the table. A unit of 30 boyz which happens to be next to the right characters becomes 5 attacks a pop hitting on 2's, etc. That's just beyond stupid. Terrible design. Genestealers? Cool, they should manhandle things in close combat. Orks? Not so much.

I feel the same sting playing Eldar - they have almost zero powerhouse close combat units unless you use Wraithblades (which I find unfluffy and don't wish to use - they also benefit from probably too many attacks).

When writing the rules I think a serious consideration should have been paid (almost above all else) to giving any basic infantry unit more than 2-3 attacks - under any circumstance. That should have been a line they left uncrossed except in incredible situations. Instead they started throwing it out willy nilly and this is the end result.

my thoughts exactly. The new assault marines are Inceptors. They have firepower, 2 attacks (just like a chainsword) and deal a mortal wound during assault on a 6. Not saying they're great, but it clearly seems that GW does not care about old marines.

As for fallback, roll a D6 for each infantry model...on a 6 it takes a mortal wound.

I think one of the problems is that their pistols are fired in the shooting phase only. So they actually loose an attack on the charge compared to last edition. Rarely, in my experience so far, do they actually get to use their pistols in CC because the enemy unit falls back before your next shooting phase. Last edition a regular space marine was 3 attacks on the charge, now they are 2 attacks on the charge. Also they had hammer or wrath for each model making it into base contact when using jump packs which would usually give you an extra 4 to 6 auto hits.

So, if you let them fire their pistols in the shooting phase and the fight phase it would help the problem and could be fixed with one sentence added to the Pistol rule. It would also help Factions like Black Templars who use Crusader Squads for assault.

Then if they added rule for the jump pack like +1 attack or D3 (D6?) mortal wounds on the charge and D3 mortal wounds if the enemy falls back, then they might be viable again.

Get rid of IGOUGO. The ability for an entire army to act all at once is what allows for focus-firing, shooting alphastrikes, etc.

 Drasius wrote:


Yeah, it does. You get one attack base (1), an extra attack for having a chainsword (2) and you get to fire your pistol in your shooting phase (3, assuming you live that long).

Shooting in the shooting phase is not the same as an extra attack in the fighting phase. But, it is an extra attack, so good enough I guess.

That said, now it is clearer to me when in a turn the pistol is shot in melee. I'd have thought it would be part of the fighting phase.

I'm still a little surprised that plasma pistols in a melee unit don't do so well.

M.

EDIT:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Get rid of IGOUGO. The ability for an entire army to act all at once is what allows for focus-firing, shooting alphastrikes, etc.

Agreed. One of the things that dabbling in other wargames has given me an appreciation for is alternate activation. I should not, as a Guard player, get to just wreck your whole day because I got initiative and brought 4 Basilisks or something.

I think they need what all marines need, essentially to be replaced with the Primaris Statline. If they were 2 wounds and attacks base (with a small price increase), with an extra attack for their chainsword they would be a decent combat force. At 20 points per model for instance 31 attacks in close combat would be pretty decent.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Get rid of IGOUGO. The ability for an entire army to act all at once is what allows for focus-firing, shooting alphastrikes, etc.

I was hoping they would do this for 8th. Roll on 9th edition!

momerathe wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Get rid of IGOUGO. The ability for an entire army to act all at once is what allows for focus-firing, shooting alphastrikes, etc.

I was hoping they would do this for 8th. Roll on 9th edition!

Never going to happen. IGOUGO, like d6-based mechanics, are such an ingrained part of the culture that any real change is certain to be met by very loud protest.

M.

Breng77 wrote:
I think they need what all marines need, essentially to be replaced with the Primaris Statline. If they were 2 wounds and attacks base (with a small price increase), with an extra attack for their chainsword they would be a decent combat force. At 20 points per model for instance 31 attacks in close combat would be pretty decent.

Garbage. For you I hope they make a primaris assault marine equivalent, that'd be fine. But please dont 'primaris' the line.

I'll take all this a different route. Assault troopers ought to be good at running interference for the rest of the army, and lets face it, they were never hugely known for doing damage, leave that to Vanguard. What if instead, Assault Marines made it harder for the enemy to fall back out of combat, and therefore pin units down.

This gives them better utility, but doesn't mean stepping on the toes of Vanguard.