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 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus

Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus

Brian888 wrote:
The Custodes army that's going to be on Warhammer TV this Thursday is reportedly 19 models. If that's pretty standard for a Custodes army, Magnus or Mortarion will eat them alive, especially if you bring along an allied Chaos sorcerer for Death Hex support. With those few models on the table, every lost model is going to hurt really badly.

Confirmed on Facebook...

Warhammer 40,000 wrote:It really, really is! On Thursday night, a Warhammer Live game kicks off using them; it's 2,000 points and the Custodes player has 19 models.

str00dles1 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus

Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus

Welp guess ill just have to count how many Magnus will be at LVO then

str00dles1 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus

Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus

I think people on the internet put TOO much emphasis in the importance of the most HIGH LEVEL competitive scene, assuming is the same for all others "competitive scenes". I agree, the competitive scene of the game is important. But just like the LoL finals aren't the competitive scene for 98% of the player base, what is played in Las Vegas Open and other big GT's isn't ALL that matters.
Thats why most game developers know that you need to do two types of balancing, the one for high end competitive players and the one for more casual-mid of the road players.

str00dles1 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus

Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus

Nah, that's wildly overestimating the importance of the tourney scene, who are largely off to one side doing their own thing most players want nothing to do with.

There's really only two factors that matter in that sense: Imbalance leading to someone accidentally taking an excessively strong or weak army to an extent it damages their fun, or the unfortunate spillover where people imitate tournament players without understanding how hostile that is to regular play.

Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:

str00dles1 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think theres just a bit of overemphasis of how many Magnus' are rolling around out there. Not everyone you're going to fight is going to have Magnus

Because the game is looked at from a completive standpoint. The game thrives and requires the competiveness to survive/excel. So yes, you will see a lot of Magnus

I think people on the internet put TOO much emphasis in the importance of the most HIGH LEVEL competitive scene, assuming is the same for all others "competitive scenes". I agree, the competitive scene of the game is important. But just like the LoL finals aren't the competitive scene for 98% of the player base, what is played in Las Vegas Open and other big GT's isn't ALL that matters.
Thats why most game developers know that you need to do two types of balancing, the one for high end competitive players and the one for more casual-mid of the road players.

Of course good balance would benefit from both equally. But then again GW doesn't care about balance as the totally broken unbalanced 8th ed shows.

tneva82 wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway

Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Unlikely for 40k, but he is listed as a HQ choice in the 30k Custodes rules

tneva82 wrote:


Of course good balance would benefit from both equally. But then again GW doesn't care about balance as the totally broken unbalanced 8th ed shows.

What? 8th is one of the most balanced editions, you honestly cant make that statement with 7th not that far behind us

I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Try this: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Vampire-Counts-Skeleton-Warriors-5-models

On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.

Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.

I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Looks like its a detachment bonus for having a detachment of nothing but custodes.
Its probably so that if you have a mixed detachment with just a single unit of custodes, they won't have 4+ invuls.

Why make rules that incentivise not using certain aspect of the rules?

-OR-

Why make rules that punish you for using certain aspect of the rules?

What I'm trying to say that if the game is already so broken this early into its lifespan that they have to bribe people with powerful rules to stop them from abusing the shonky allies rules, then we're in trouble.

Or they can learn from their unbalanced cherry picking mess that was army building during 6th/7th edition and give pure single codex builds some kind of advantage to counteract the versatility of Imperial soup ones. I'm not jumping to the defense of 8th (never played it) but I see these kinds of rules as a response to the previous buffet style meta of army lists that needed an excel spreadsheet to make sense of the faction and detachments.

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

They're not just going to be used against Flyers.

They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.

Mandragola wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Try this: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Vampire-Counts-Skeleton-Warriors-5-models

On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.

Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.

I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.

I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

They're not just going to be used against Flyers.

They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.

Nobody has a screaming need for an autocannon that works better on assault marines.

...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

changemod wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Pretty likely seeing it's referred as LOW choice for Custodes in 30k. That or that was hyper super unlikely to happen but let's fool proof anyway

Primarchs print money, so yeah: When they make a siege of terra campaign book they'll absolutely build an Emperor and put him in a diorama with Horus.

Yeah. Albeit he's not going to be all that usable in game! Point cost is likely rather high so even the minimum game size is going to be preeeetty high. Unpowered Horus is 500 so 2k minimum. If Emperor is even more powerful than warhound then we are easily looking at 4k minimum game. Not often you get to play 4k

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.

 Galas wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Are they going to release the empreror as a model?

Try this: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Vampire-Counts-Skeleton-Warriors-5-models

On the question of balance, personally I think it matters at all levels of the game - though as a tournament player maybe I could be counted on to think that.

Basically if fielding any model - such as Magnus - makes you “that guy” then the rules for that model are wrong. That’s because not everyone who wants to field their legion’s primarch is a dead-eyed WAAC tournament junkie like me. Some people might just like the model, or maybe some kid will get given it for Christmas or something. If one kid gets Given Magnus and their sibling is given... I don’t know, a storm surge or something... then before long you’ll have one happy kid and one sad one.

I guess I’ve never understood what’s so bad about having rules that are fair, from a fluff player’s perspective.

I wasn't at any moment trying to say that balance isn't important. It is. But whats it a balance factor in ultra-competitive isn't in a casual enviroment. In a casual enviroment is more important to have rules that are fair, that don't make a player feel dirty, or that aren't frustrating to play agaisn't. Is something very subjetive yes, but it exist nonetheles. In ultra-competitive that isn't as important, theres always gonna be a "meta" (yes, theres always a meta, even in ultra balanced games, go to any kind of game and you'll always have 15-20% of that game at minimun "out of the meta"), so as long as a good bunch of stuff is competitive for every faction thats good enough, because it doesn't matter that the second option is 3% less powerfull than the first option. In the highest level of play everyone is gonna play the first option barring some one that wants to play "anti-meta".
Thats why in Super Smash Bros Brawl, 78% of the character used in tournament are Fox, with the second one character most used, Falco, is 18%.

I gotta disagree with your posts in this thread. I was Master league in SC2 and rank similarly in many other games. You balance at the top level and it works for the lower level. You do NOT balance them separately (and doing so is not Riot or Blizzard's actual method). Anybody who is not at the top tier can overcome a problem unit or comp by "getting good", as it were, and improving to where they can handle that.

My local meta for 40k is absolute, cutthroat competitive meta. Every match is practice for a GT and even our 'narrative' campaigns still run strong lists. They just have a story context. If Custodes aren't competitive I literally cannot justify buying them.

Your idea to make them "balanced" (not sure what that even means since it's a relative term) and to nerf the rest is nice, but in practice almost never done. You have only to look to those e-sports for reference. Nerfs happen, but buffing units is the preferred method. And let's face it, GW will not realistically have the stomach for large scale nerfs so that's a pipe dream. Stuff needs to come in competitive and the rest buffed.

 nordsturmking wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.

But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.

 Galas wrote:
I can understand that. But I think the solution is to make Custodes a balanced army, and then nerf the outliers out there. If every new army needs to be more powerfull to compete, then we enter in power creep territory.

And as much as people complain about Horde Armies being totally OP... this is something new of 8th edition. is not like Hordes where the hotness in 5th, 6th and 7th.

And I Know, I know... the only meta that matters is the ultra-competitive big GT internet meta. But in my regional meta (Not local because I play in all of Galicia) even having guys that spam Dark Reapers, Magnus+Brimstones, etc... they are in a minority.

The solution as you call it doesn't exist because GW doesn't do balance. People have nothing to cling to but the hope that GW's power roulette hits their army just the right way so that they get to enjoy a reasonably powerful army with diverse options without being an overpowered mess nobody wants to play against.

That's the real trouble. As you say, there shouldn't be outliers, but GW produces them in both directions and the gap between them is pretty wide. Hordes weren't the hotness before but apparently they are now. Reshuffling the power structure of the game is all GW ever achieves with edition changes. So sure, you can go about this saying hordes deserve their time in the sun, but the next reshuffle will come around and the problem just keeps persisting: GW chooses novelty over balance because it's easier to achieve and can be repeated indefinitely.

As a longtime Deathwing player I have a pretty good idea how Custodes will shake out. And I'm talking purely on a casual level here because I don't give a damn about competitive tournament stuff. Used to be a time when you had the odds stacked against you in most games with a couple of games that favored you. As an extreme army, Deathwing performance depended a lot on match-up. Then GW figured guns needed to be more powerful and plentiful with more shots and better penetration. Terminator armor became even worse than it already was. We're still subject to this design paradigm today, so I have no doubt that unless Custodes who share many of the Deathwing's weaknesses get one of those awful mass first turn charge options, there's not going to stand up to the high strength, high volume fire power that's available to many armies these days.

So yeah, I can disregard the whole competitive nonsense because I have the benefit of playing in what's pretty much gaming utopia. Nice, relaxed, casual gaming with friends who don't have to pull out net lists to prove something. And you know what? Still nobody enjoys playing games that are a foregone conclusion because GW can't minimize the power gap between armies. Because what's the point for me setting up my army if I get blasted off the board on turn two? What's the point for my opponent if he blasts me off the table on turn 2?

So you'll have to excuse me if I don't see asking for useful tools in one's army as calls to make that army the most powerful to date and this essentially asking for power creep. It's asking to close the power gap.

I'm not at all impressed with the missiles, but the movement and countercharge are really incredible. I'm very torn on what I'm wanting to do here. Excited to read the codex, lol

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

They're not just going to be used against Flyers.

They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.

The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better.

Edit: my point about differnt points costs is irrelevant.

the_scotsman wrote:
...unless my math here is wrong, the melta rocket deals almost twice as much damage on average versus the Flakkburst rocket when targeting an Ork flyer.

The ork flyer has the lowest toughness and save I can come up with in the game for a flyer.The Ap-4 vs Ap-1 and S7 vs S8 just hurts so much in that comparison.

Weird, isnt it, that gw seems unable to do the most basic probability calculations.

Lots of the commonly-used flyers are t7 and have 3+ saves, are hard to hit but have no invulnerable saves. If the bikes are moving then the melta one does an average of 1.55 wounds. The “AA” option does 0.66. That’s less than half as much damage from the dedicated AA version. Lame.

Contemptor Mortis dreads provide great anti-vehicle shooting. It might be a plan to get a few of them in a spearhead, maybe with someone like greyfax as an HQ for a bit of psychic defence. You could paint them gold and even use the custodes contemptor models if you wanted.

Alternatively, wait for FW to bring out rules for their stuff. The Caladius or Telemon could probably bring down a plane or two.

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

They're not just going to be used against Flyers.

They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.

The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.

It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

They're not just going to be used against Flyers.

They're going to be used against anything with the Fly keyword. There are things that have Fly but aren't Vehicles. Crisis Suits and Flyrants immediately spring to mind.

The Melta shots are better at damaging a Flyrant and and better vs Crisis Suits. only if the Crisis Suits has drones nearby the flakk is a bit better. so if the flakk is not way cheaper there is no point in taking it. because the melta version is much more versatile.

It's a missile, friend. You select the firing mode. You don't pay for both.

Ah yes you're right forgot about that. So sometimes it will better to use the flakk profile.

This will be my last post in this tangent because this is offtopic. But I disagree with your disagreement. Using a blizzard game has an example, Heroes of the Storm (His game that I most play after stopping playing WoW), they actually have the "casual" meta and the "competitive" meta as two different things to balance heroes around. One example is the change to Stealth heroes. In competitive meta they where useless, nobody used them because everybody was capable of spotting them even in invisible mode. But in casual play they where totally unfun to play. Basically where characters to punish noobs to the game. So they where changed not because they weren't competitive in the high leagues (They still aren't). They where changed because their game mechanics where sensed as "toxic".
Other example is Medivh, a hero so complicated that is busted in competitive but totally useless in casual, because is a hero totally reliable of the rest of your team responding. And they don't change it even being useless in casual play, because they know that if they make him viable in Casual play, it will make him totally overpowered in competitive meta. Other example was a change to how a Muradin talent interact with his jump, giving him armour. It was a talent alwais picked in competitive meta, but nobody in casual took it because it was considered "bad" for the noobish. So they changed it to make it usable for "casual" play without making it "busted" for competitive leagues.

What I was trying to say with all of this related to Warhammer40k and Custodes? Balance is good. But the mantra that "Balance to the high competitive leagues and everyone will benefit from that" isn't actually true. The "casual" crow and the "competitive" crown are two separated groups with totally different mindsets to what they want from their games. That your solution to casuals having problems in a competitive enviroment is to "git gud" shows that you have a "competitive" crown mindset. Is not a bad thing of course, but this is exactly what I'm saying when I talk about the internet people putting ALL of the emphasis in the most high level tournament level of play.

But I agree with you. I don't think GW will have the guts to have big nerfs across factions like Blizzard did with the Support nerf in HOTS.

the_scotsman wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.

But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.

The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.

But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.

The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.

"Custodian Guard themselves have received a variety of discreet improvements in the new codex. For one, they’re now BS 2+, allowing them to get a little more out of their surprisingly powerful attacks with their Guardian Spears."

2nd preview article. I suppose it's possible the bikes are worse shots than the line troops, but I doubt it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

changemod wrote:
I'm not quite sure where this impression GW have that flyers are super fragile came from actually: Other than the hit bonus, the flakk missiles on the jetbikes are strictly worse than just firing normal anti-vehicle shot.... And a -1 is nowhere near the penalty snap firing was last edition.

I agree the flakk missiles are only better when shooting targets like Gargoyles. Even shooting SM jump troops take more damage from the melta shoots.

But the hit bonus doesn't matter against anyone that doesn't have native -1 to hit. Remember they're starting from BS2+.

The jetbikes are? Was that spoiled somewhere? I've seen BS2+ on the vehicles and the Shield-Captain, but index Custodians are still BS3+ and I'm not expecting GW to put across-the-board BS2+ down given how rare it is generally.

They have confirmed that Custodes will be BS2+ across the board, even basic Custodes. And the bikes are heavy, so the +1 to hit will be usefull even agaisn't targets without the -1 if you are moving (Being bikes you are gonna move all the time)