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 vipoid wrote:
Personally, I don't mind Storm Troopers being Troops.

However, I do mind Veterans and SWSs being moved to Elites.

Very much this. Veterans are somewhere in between Scions and regular Infantry Squads, so they should obviously be back in the Troop slot.

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

This makes the most sense. Since it makes the most sense, it makes sense why gw wouldnt do it

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

The issue here is that you have a rule that can only be enforced retroactively.

Let's say you want to make a pure MT army. Well, your Scions are currently still Elites, because until your army is complete then there is no way to tell whether or not all detachments in it will be MT ones.

So, you would have to complete your army using Vanguard Detachments - with Scions as Elites.

Then, when your army is complete and all your detachments are MT ones, your Scions become troops . . . making all your Vanguard detachments illegal.

And if you try to go back and make them Battalions pr Patrol detachments instead, then Scions go right back to being Elites.


To put it another way, the Regiment(s) of your army is determined only after you have built your army. However, for your method to work, you would have to choose that before you even start building (something the current rules do not allow for in any way).

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

So yes, stormtroopers are apparently more plentiful and easy to access for your army than veterans from within the same regiment are.

As are Space Marines, Custodes and Grey Knight Terminators.

I don't think you can apply in-universe logic to a meta concept like the Force Organization Chart.

 vipoid wrote:

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

The issue here is that you have a rule that can only be enforced retroactively.

Let's say you want to make a pure MT army. Well, your Scions are currently still Elites, because until your army is complete then there is no way to tell whether or not all detachments in it will be MT ones.

So, you would have to complete your army using Vanguard Detachments - with Scions as Elites.

Then, when your army is complete and all your detachments are MT ones, your Scions become troops . . . making all your Vanguard detachments illegal.

And if you try to go back and make them Battalions pr Patrol detachments instead, then Scions go right back to being Elites.


To put it another way, the Regiment(s) of your army is determined only after you have built your army. However, for your method to work, you would have to choose that before you even start building (something the current rules do not allow for in any way).

Which doesn't matter as this is a rule that would be followed by humans, not computers and we are more than capable of understanding it and following it.

Drager wrote:
Which doesn't matter as this is a rule that would be followed by humans, not computers and we are more than capable of understanding it and following it.

You're right. I mean, why have rules that actually make sense as-written when you can just shove a whole mess down and hope that players get the gist of it.

Because, if there's one thing we know, it's that dubiously-worded rules never cause any issues ever, right?

vipoid wrote:Personally, I don't mind Storm Troopers being Troops.

However, I do mind Veterans and SWSs being moved to Elites.

This, I think, is the bigger bewilderment. And now that you mention it, SWS being Elites is the worst concept. I mean, they're not even good choices as Troops outside of very specific cases (which, really, should be tailored to the map you play on - this is why in my fluff they have their name changed to ad-hoc teams :p).

Conscripts should be your low cost (RIP), low quality infantry with poor choices. Guardsmen are standard quality with all the trimmings. Veterans your advanced infantry with better equipment selection. Scions your elite strike teams.

Why, GW, WHHYYYYYY?!

M.

Drager wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Jory4001 wrote:
I think scions should be elites, veterans should be troops, and if your army only uses the tempestus regiment rules for all detachments then they can be taken as troops.

The issue here is that you have a rule that can only be enforced retroactively.

Let's say you want to make a pure MT army. Well, your Scions are currently still Elites, because until your army is complete then there is no way to tell whether or not all detachments in it will be MT ones.

So, you would have to complete your army using Vanguard Detachments - with Scions as Elites.

Then, when your army is complete and all your detachments are MT ones, your Scions become troops . . . making all your Vanguard detachments illegal.

And if you try to go back and make them Battalions pr Patrol detachments instead, then Scions go right back to being Elites.


To put it another way, the Regiment(s) of your army is determined only after you have built your army. However, for your method to work, you would have to choose that before you even start building (something the current rules do not allow for in any way).

Which doesn't matter as this is a rule that would be followed by humans, not computers and we are more than capable of understanding it and following it.

I think GW removed all of those "have XY as an HQ and your Z unit suddenly becomes Troop" situations. I think that's quite alright. A Brigade is very much your regular army organisation, NOT your specialized tank regiment. Tank regiments can run Spearhead detachments and the LR in those detachments gain Objective Secured.

 vipoid wrote:

Drager wrote:
Which doesn't matter as this is a rule that would be followed by humans, not computers and we are more than capable of understanding it and following it.

You're right. I mean, why have rules that actually make sense as-written when you can just shove a whole mess down and hope that players get the gist of it.

Because, if there's one thing we know, it's that dubiously-worded rules never cause any issues ever, right?

It's not dubiously worded and it makes sense as written. We don't need to have things follow procedural logic gates to make sense, that's just something that people fixate on. In fact doing so often makes things less clear.

Using the rule: "If an army consists only of Militarum Tempestus detachments it may contain Scions as troops."

We can say that the ability to assess the legality of the army post construction is unambiguous. We also know that humans are capable of anticipating future states. Therefore, a human constructing an army list can build to this future legal state.

What ambiguity in that rule are you concerned about? It isn't a mess, it is clear and unambiguous.

Incidentally I don't think that rule is a good idea, but not for the reason of it being unclear.

I think everyone gets too caught up on the FOC still. Ultimately, the biggest difference between Scions as elites or as troops winds up being if you get 1 CP or 3 CP out of any given detachment.

Personally, I have two reasons why they are troops this edition: Because you can then use stormtroopers as troops in Inquisition/GK armies, and also to keep some sort of compatibility with the MT book from last edition.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They were troops in their own Codex.

Could of sworn they where elites.

If they were elites then what were the troops in C:MT?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:
They were elite in the last edition I played - and I think they were Limited, too. I don't remember.

Anyways, when and why are they troop choices, now? I can see wanting to have a bunch of them on the field at once (elite strike force after some key objective), but there's native support for having an army entirely out of Elite choices now. They have some pretty impressive profiles, even if the new models look a little...odd.

What's up with that?

M.

6th gave them the ability to be fielded in platoons, so people were able to build whole armies of them. Then Stormtroopers got their own limited edition codex (yes you heard that right, only limited edition) that made them an actual army with their own force org. The main squads were troops, command squads were elites, Commissars and tempestors were HQ, etc.

When 8th edition came along, platoons were dead, so they couldn't shove all the options into elites, and the stormtrooper codex was dead, so they just shoved them into the IG codex but kept their force org spot from the stormtrooper codex. This way Scion players who bought the codex could keep their armies as is, but IG players could keep using stormtroopers in mostly the same way as they always had.

So yes, stormtroopers are apparently more plentiful and easy to access for your army than veterans from within the same regiment are.

Stop spreading that falsehood! The HARDCOVER book was in limited supply, I imagine that they did not intend it to sell as well as it did. They eventually followed up with a softcover version of the book and it was ALWAYS AVAILABLE ONLINE. Seriously, this rumor about the book being "limited edition" has been circulation for years and it is not helping.

As for them being troops, I am beginning to think it is merely a holdover from the last and first Scion book (which I do just adore, despite it being limp in the rules department it had loads of great background fluff and regiments descriptions)




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 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They were troops in their own Codex.

Could of sworn they where elites.

If they were elites then what were the troops in C:MT?

That book was purely FoC compliant because they really hadn't developed modified FoCs at that point (that came during the start of 7th before the great Decurianism) they were troops in the C:MT book and Elites in the AM book.

You could not get Scions in platoons ins the MT books.
Also, arguably, they were a different unit in their own codex because of the different orders compared to the AM codex.
Good orders, mind it, but the Scions in the AM codex had access to Ignore Cover and FRFSRF.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
You could not get Scions in platoons ins the MT books.
Also, arguably, they were a different unit in their own codex because of the different orders compared to the AM codex.
Good orders, mind it, but the Scions in the AM codex had access to Ignore Cover and FRFSRF.

The rerolling 1s to wound order for the Scions book was the reason I took them as their own detachment. That on plasma and melta was a guaranteed to kill something hard, especially since I always, always rolled 1s on my wound rolls when it was a 2+ to wound.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They were troops in their own Codex.

Could of sworn they where elites.

If they were elites then what were the troops in C:MT?

Its probably me miss remembering.

actually i think what im remembering is the inquisition dex. or i could be wrong again