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Don't people know that Power Armour and Terminator armour have the same handwavium tech as Iron Man that let's him completely ignore the fact that the squishy bit inside the suit should be affected by all the G Forces and stuff that would turn him into soup.
E.g even if a Kevlar vest stops a bullet (even a 9mm) the person in the vest is still gonna feel it break ribs n stuff just by the kinetic force.
"Artillery adds dignity, to what would otherwise be an ugly brawl” – Frederick the Great, king of Germany, 1740 to 1786
If you don’t have enough artillery, quit.” – General Richard Cavasos
Breng77 wrote: Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with 7th edition.
TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
RedCommander wrote: Instead, Mortal Wounds should be a very rare thing. Instead of every psyker being able to do them, only the most powerful psykers should have them. Only a select few effects that do horrific damage should have them, stuff like a Super Heavy's core melting down and exploding or an ultra rare weapon that's high tech even among other high tech weapons.
Somewhat ironic that THE weapon you would imagine to cause mortal wounds by bucketloads(belicosa volcano cannon) is actually rather pants at creating one.
Lance845 wrote: Is everyone forgtting how many dice were rolled to little or no effect in 7th ed when a vehicle exploded? It was a complete and utter waste of time.
Now you roll 1 dice and if it triggers it absolutely causes an effect. There are actual consequences and action instead of the complete waste of time that was 7th.
This systems better.
My biggest issue is the dramatically different impact on hordes and "elite" units.
Is the almost the same problem of grav in 7th. There, you were punished for paying more points for your armour.
Here you are punished for being an elite, costly unit.
Mind it - is not nearly as much stupid as grav. Not even in the same ballpark.
And elite armies are such a broken that they dominate the meta! Oh wait it's actually IG...
JNAProductions wrote: Honestly, I do think 7th edition handled it way better. It made a lot more sense. Now, I'd be fine with the hits being high strength and decent AP (it is a big ol' boom, after all) but it should not hurt Terminators many times worse than Conscripts.
Perhaps the Strength of the explosion should equal the Toughness of the vehicle exploding (so a Starweaver doesn't blow up as bad as a Land Raider) with AP-2, to all models within d6"?
It hurts Terminators literally half as much as conscripts.
If some Conscripts are meeting with the Ultramarine terminators near a Rhino that detonates, the Terminators lose 1 for every 2 mortal wounds and the Conscripts lose 1 model per mortal wound. So in the fluff, if we are extrapolating from game mechanics, terminators are literally twice as tough against exploding tanks as a conscript.
1 MW at terminator=20 pts. 1MW at conscript=4 pts. You were saying?
And before you try to claim it's just points then just look at efficiency. Losing one terminator is going to have bigger impact by far than 2 conscripts whether you play matched points, power level or all models you own and to the death.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/30 10:28:26
I agree with the OP that it would make more sense in both fluff terms and game mechanics to allow models an armor save against exploding vehicles. In my opinion, mortal wounds would be best saved for the explosion of super heavies.
At the same time I'm not upset by the rule as it stands. It adds a bit of tactical play to keep expensive elites and characters out of range of potential explosions.
It's a smooth solution. Much better than 7th edition. In 7th edition it was one of those rules that meant useless roling for several minutes without any effect (or with an effect on horde units only, that didn't stand a chance that edition anyway), like everything in that edition that made S3/4 DS5 damage. Good thing 8th edition got rid of that crap, just like soulblaze.
It's a 1/6 chance (or 1/2 for some DG vehicles), nothing to be mad about. Just make your disgustingly resilient safe and move on .
RedCommander wrote: Mortal Wounds should be more rare. For thematic reasons. It's pretty lame that almost everything is a Mortal Wound.
A mortal wounds is the equivalent of beating armor saves in 7th
i think its fine.
Ummm no closest thing to mortal wounds were STR hits and those were generally considered bad.
Actually no, D was only like that on a 6, but 7th had quite a few abilities where you couldn't take armour or invuln saves (Phantasm/Torment Grenade Launchers for instance). They were Mortal Wound generators without the mechanic name.
amanita wrote: Why not say it automatically wounds but models still get their armor/invulnerable saves? Is that really so hard?
Because it hurts orcs more than it hurts terminators. Are you reading the thread?
Why would that hurt orcs more than it hurts terminators?
Gosh, cheap troops with less armor are killed more often this way than heavily armored soldiers. What a concept.
I guess you've never played with or against Dark Eldar or Orks in previous editions, where their paper thin open topped vehicles could be very easily blown up and then would easily kill the majority of the unit inside, any troops nearby and could even take out vehicles nearby (have had this exact thing happen to me on more than one occaision), whilst Marines effectively ompletely ignored it. Whilst thematically it makes sense, it was extremely punishing and distinctly un fun as the DE player.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/30 12:54:18
Breng77 wrote: Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with 7th edition.
There is a middle ground. Like all models within 3" roll a save or suffer 1 wound. Only he armor save roll.
I guess you've never played with or against Dark Eldar or Orks in previous editions, where their paper thin open topped vehicles could be very easily blown up and then would easily kill the majority of the unit inside, any troops nearby and could even take out vehicles nearby (have had this exact thing happen to me on more than one occaision), whilst Marines effectively ompletely ignored it. Whilst thematically it makes sense, it was extremely punishing and distinctly un fun as the DE player.
I think none wants to go back to that. I would argue that this is the best argument for the current system. I just feel that the game is too punishing towad elites now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/30 14:35:15
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
Breng77 wrote: Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with 7th edition.
There is a middle ground. Like all models within 3" roll a save or suffer 1 wound. Only he armor save roll.
I guess you've never played with or against Dark Eldar or Orks in previous editions, where their paper thin open topped vehicles could be very easily blown up and then would easily kill the majority of the unit inside, any troops nearby and could even take out vehicles nearby (have had this exact thing happen to me on more than one occaision), whilst Marines effectively ompletely ignored it. Whilst thematically it makes sense, it was extremely punishing and distinctly un fun as the DE player.
I think none wants to go back to that. I would argue that this is the best argument for the current system. I just feel that the game is too punishing towad elites now.
I think it's a good thing that the game is punishing towards elites, though, imo. 40k should be an army game, and some of the "elite" armies are more like special forces (e.g. Grey Knights). These armies really wouldn't be sent out to fight e.g. an Ork horde.
Breng77 wrote: Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with 7th edition.
There is a middle ground. Like all models within 3" roll a save or suffer 1 wound. Only he armor save roll.
I guess you've never played with or against Dark Eldar or Orks in previous editions, where their paper thin open topped vehicles could be very easily blown up and then would easily kill the majority of the unit inside, any troops nearby and could even take out vehicles nearby (have had this exact thing happen to me on more than one occaision), whilst Marines effectively ompletely ignored it. Whilst thematically it makes sense, it was extremely punishing and distinctly un fun as the DE player.
I think none wants to go back to that. I would argue that this is the best argument for the current system. I just feel that the game is too punishing towad elites now.
I think it's a good thing that the game is punishing towards elites, though, imo. 40k should be an army game, and some of the "elite" armies are more like special forces (e.g. Grey Knights). These armies really wouldn't be sent out to fight e.g. an Ork horde.
Whether or not it makes sense realistically or thematically is irrelevant. The first priority of game design is to get the game working well. There shouldn't be units that suck just because you don't think they make a ton of sense being there. Same thing with the melee vs shooting thing. Yes shooting is realistically far better, but in a well designed game, where one can choose either element, they should be comparable. Anything else is a failure of game design.
It's possible for a unit (e.g. a single GK squad) or small detachment (e.g. a Strike Squad with DKGM in a patrol detachment) of GK to be good in the wider context. They really really help IG and SM pin down Eldar, for example, by deep-striking and then charging with re-rolls of charge rolls.
I just don't think an entire army of GK should match an entire army of heretic battle-tanks and space marines.
Conversely on the shooting vs melee issue: It's entirely possible to have a game where shooting is better than melee. That could be a deliberate design choice. Heck, in games like Field of Glory, melee is king and shooting is bupkis, while some Napoleonics essentially relegate melee to a small section in the back of the book because shooting (and charging, which then causes the enemy to break) is very important.
A game that de-emphasizes melee or shooting is not a bad game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/30 14:51:21
Breng77 wrote: Now I could see potentially making it roll a for ever model withing x" roll a D6, on a 4+ that models unit suffers 1 mortal wound, as this would make it more dangerous to hordes, than elite units.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you end up with 7th edition.
What does this even mean? I'm fine with how it is, but if you wanted to change it I think doing as I suggest is faster than the suggestions about taking S5 hits or whatever since it means fewer rolls. Regular hits have wound rolls and save rolls, and then do very little.
I think standard models shouldn't explode at all. The rule has little to no effect most on the time, but will, once in a while, create a peculiar scenario.
GW's rulewriters really push for little things like that to create the once-in-a-lifetime scenario "remember that time my trukk blew up, removed the last wound on you knight and won me the game?". I totally understand people who enjoy these scenarios, and find these games to be the most memorable. But I personally don't care enough; it's not worth the extra rolling and placement to me.
Head cannon for wounding infantry; its not the strapnal or flames from the explosion that kill them, its the concussive force and shock wave that kills them. Even in power armor, your still going to feel a shock wave.
Backspacehacker wrote: Head cannon for wounding infantry; its not the strapnal or flames from the explosion that kill them, its the concussive force and shock wave that kills them. Even in power armor, your still going to feel a shock wave.
I think you are overestimating the potency of a shockwave. Yes, those can be Very Dangerous, but not anywhere near as much as the crap it is hurling towards you. Not for something that can expand in all directions, anyways.
If anything, the massive and sudden increase in temperature is a bigger concern.
Backspacehacker wrote: Head cannon for wounding infantry; its not the strapnal or flames from the explosion that kill them, its the concussive force and shock wave that kills them. Even in power armor, your still going to feel a shock wave.
I think you are overestimating the potency of a shockwave. Yes, those can be Very Dangerous, but not anywhere near as much as the crap it is hurling towards you. Not for something that can expand in all directions, anyways.
If anything, the massive and sudden increase in temperature is a bigger concern.
M.
Wellllllllllll the game is also an abstract. fact of the matter is some one being removed off the table because of a wound doesn't necessarily mean the are dead.
even a marine with a fully hardened and inclosed chest cavity wont stop his insides from doing the mambo forcing him to go take a pooper.
Wellllllllllll the game is also an abstract. fact of the matter is some one being removed off the table because of a wound doesn't necessarily mean the are dead.
even a marine with a fully hardened and inclosed chest cavity wont stop his insides from doing the mambo forcing him to go take a pooper.
This is a true statement - a casualty is just rendered combat ineffective.
One old house rule I had way back when for scored resolution was that if a model was removed by a weapon with strength less than double its toughness, you put it in a different pile from those hit by 2xT weapons. At the end, you rolled off - on a 4+, it can be "returned" to the pool, so you only count half its points as being "lost".
Rarely got used, though, since few people around where I lived then cared a wit about scored resolution
Are we honestly arguing realism one way or the other in terms of an ENTIRELY unrealistic game?
Second, are we honestly complaining that a game was decided by RNG dice rolls? Seriously? - This ENTIRE game is build around RNG - oh, the opponent got lucky that two of his vehicles exploded, did maximum damage, and turned the tide of the game; so what? gak happens.
Your fault for not positioning you models in such a way where that wasn't possible; you could have thrown a cheaper squad in the way of the vehicle, so it could never get that close to the rest of your army - but no, you decided to risk the 1/6 (x2) chance followed by 1/3 or 1/6 of maximum number of MW.
Live and learn; or don't', and come complain on the forums.
Also; way to punish me horde players for playing the army they want - I don't mind MW scaling with unit size, but I DO mind having to space out each model 2" EXACTLY to minimize the impact of blasts, explosions, etc.
One of the things I love about the new edition is the ability to let groups of models just be groups of models - no need to worry about perfect spacing, or being penalized for the lack of it.
Go play a couple of games of sigmar with armies rocking a consistent 40-60 mortal wounds per turn. Get used to the idea, and then come back. It'll give people perspective.
So, is this thread about rather wanting to roll 20 dice to see if you lose a terminator to an exploding vehicle rather than two?
Or is this thread about wanting to ignore game mechanics because space marine shouldn't be bothered by explosions?
So, first of all let's get the facts straight:
- Almost all explosions do d3 mortal wounds and are 6", except Tyranids who always "explode" in a 3" radius.
- There is a type of "lesser" explosion which does one fixed mortal wound in 3", used by light vehicles like Land Speeders, Pyrovores, War Walkers, Vypers, Killa Kanz, Piranhas and Sentinels
- Vehicles with 16 or more wounds explode for d6 mortal wounds, for example Landraider, Repulsor, Wraithknight, Battlewagon, Orkanauts, Stompa and Stormsurge
- Only explosions from titanic models have 2d6" range (except Stormsurge).
- Most models explode on a 6+, a few especially volatile units like burna bommers, DG daemon engines or the pyrovore explode on 4+ or 5+.
- Not every monster/vehicle explodes or has death throes. The only tyranid unit with any type of explosions and less than 12 wounds is the pyrovore. Ork buggies, trakks, skrocha buggies and koptaz don't explode either, neither do any tau suits except the stormsurge or the eldar wraith constructs. Artillery also doesn't explode.
Ecxeptions to those rule are:
- Haruspex, Toxicrene and Burna bommers explode for fixed 3 MW (Acid/Napalm explosion)
- Deathguard-only units have special type of nurgle-explosion with 7" range and less damage than usual and higher chance to explode.
- All standard sized dreads like Deff Dreads, Hellbrutes, Venerable, Ironclad and regular Dreads only explode 3" but do d3 mortal wounds.
- Orkanauts explode 9"
Disclaimer, I don't own the IG codex, but if explosions have not changed massively from the index, they fit this schema as well.
So, with this established, let's have look at those complaints:
The Tyranid monster you were fighting couldn't scratch the paint off your terminators' armor but in its death throes he suddenly kills 2 of them.
Which tyranid monster exactly? The weakest model with death throes I could find was the Exotrine - in combat it would have to hit its one attack on a terminator with a 5+, wound on 3+ and then the terminator would need to fail a 3+ armor save in order to die due to the exotrine always doing 2 damage. Chance of that happening is 7.41%.
Losing a terminator to the death throes of that model is 6+, followed by 2 or 3 on a d3, so 11.11%. All that rage for a 4.7% increased chance to lose a terminator after killing a 216 points model? I'd also like to point out that the next weakest monster with death throes has a 33.33% chance to kill a terminator and can kill up to three with lucky dice if it were attacking instead of just dealing mortal wounds.
So, you're basically asking for tyranids to kill more of your expensive models when you die.
The tank of that Ork buggy explodes and takes 3 wounds off your Land Raider, when it had previously been firing Rokkits at it for 2 turns without any result.
Well, first of all ork buggies never explode, and the cheapest thing armed with rokkits that even has the chance to explode into d3 damage is a trukk or a deff dread.
Since no one puts rokkits on a deff dread, let's assume a trukk was shooting your Land Raider instead of just assaulting it to shut off all those guns it has.
The trukk hits on a 5+, wounds on a 4+ and the landraider needs to fail a 4+ save to take 3 damage from the rokkit. The chance of that happening is 8.3%
If the trukk explodes and your land raider is within 6", you need a 6+ followed by a 3 on a d3, so a 5.55% chance for that to happen.
So, while I agree that rokkits should be more powerful, they seem to do a better job at damaging land raiders than any exploding ork vehicles smaller than a battlewagon.
But somehow those chunks unable to dent titan's armour intentionally then finds it as easy a# paper. Armour designed to protect against weapons used to level city blocks provide no help
Which weapon is unable to dent a titan's armor in 8th? On a more serious note, almost every model with an explosion rule is a lot more likely to damage titans through combat or melee than through explosions.
"On a 6, every unit in a 6" radius suffers 2d6 wounds" and let models take an armor save. This way no-armor models will get blasted and models with a crazy thick armor will get a chance to survive.
2d6 wounds does an average of two wounds to a unit with 3+ saves, exactly as much as the current rule does. Slightly less to terminators and more to models with high toughness but bad saves. A T8 4+ battlewagon would take more damage from your rule than a T3 3+ eldar aspect warrior.
So you want to roll five times as many dice for the same effect? Just because you want armies with less armor to suffer more casualties?
Nope. You're dead wrong. I had 3 unhurt 5 man asm squads with 2x plasma pistol each being fodder for 3 unwounded jump libbies. Closer to 600 points. It was bottom of turn 4, and the other 70% of my army had decimated his vehicles from range, and were in my backfield and midfield. I have the jump force get in on a vehicle on his backfield objective. It dies, blows, and takes out 3 asm from each squad and hits each libby for 2 damage. His turn he moves his last working vehicle, a small group of obsec troops, and his token warlord into range to claim the objective. My turn, I kill the obsec troops, then kill the vehicle, it blows, all 3 libbies and all the remaining asm die, his WL lives thanks to being previously unwounded, game ends, he wins by first blood since we both had our own backfield objectives.
You do realize that chance of rolling two sixes, a total of three 5+ rolls on 2d3 to kill 3x5 ASM and another three 4+ rolls on 2d3 to kill the librarians is a chance of 0.2%? You're only going to have that once every five hundred games you play.
Even if mortal wounds didn't ignore armor, you might as well have fudged all your armor saves with that kind of luck. Plus having three units and three characters within not one, but two exploding vehicles is probably avoidable.
Yes, elite armies are weak, but the one explosion you get in an average game are definitely not the reason for that. This entire thread is a huge overreaction.
In this case mortal wounds are just a simplification to quickly handle rules that do damage in any way. An exploding trukk in 7th required 60+ rolls to resolve on average if it hit just one unit, I'd rather remove my d3 models, thank you.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: So, is this thread about rather wanting to roll 20 dice to see if you lose a terminator to an exploding vehicle rather than two?
Or is this thread about wanting to ignore game mechanics because space marine shouldn't be bothered by explosions?
So, first of all let's get the facts straight:
- Almost all explosions do d3 mortal wounds and are 6", except Tyranids who always "explode" in a 3" radius.
- There is a type of "lesser" explosion which does one fixed mortal wound in 3", used by light vehicles like Land Speeders, Pyrovores, War Walkers, Vypers, Killa Kanz, Piranhas and Sentinels
- Vehicles with 16 or more wounds explode for d6 mortal wounds, for example Landraider, Repulsor, Wraithknight, Battlewagon, Orkanauts, Stompa and Stormsurge
- Only explosions from titanic models have 2d6" range (except Stormsurge).
- Most models explode on a 6+, a few especially volatile units like burna bommers, DG daemon engines or the pyrovore explode on 4+ or 5+.
- Not every monster/vehicle explodes or has death throes. The only tyranid unit with any type of explosions and less than 12 wounds is the pyrovore. Ork buggies, trakks, skrocha buggies and koptaz don't explode either, neither do any tau suits except the stormsurge or the eldar wraith constructs. Artillery also doesn't explode.
Ecxeptions to those rule are:
- Haruspex, Toxicrene and Burna bommers explode for fixed 3 MW (Acid/Napalm explosion)
- Deathguard-only units have special type of nurgle-explosion with 7" range and less damage than usual and higher chance to explode.
- All standard sized dreads like Deff Dreads, Hellbrutes, Venerable, Ironclad and regular Dreads only explode 3" but do d3 mortal wounds.
- Orkanauts explode 9"
Disclaimer, I don't own the IG codex, but if explosions have not changed massively from the index, they fit this schema as well.
So, with this established, let's have look at those complaints:
The Tyranid monster you were fighting couldn't scratch the paint off your terminators' armor but in its death throes he suddenly kills 2 of them.
Which tyranid monster exactly? The weakest model with death throes I could find was the Exotrine - in combat it would have to hit its one attack on a terminator with a 5+, wound on 3+ and then the terminator would need to fail a 3+ armor save in order to die due to the exotrine always doing 2 damage. Chance of that happening is 7.41%.
Losing a terminator to the death throes of that model is 6+, followed by 2 or 3 on a d3, so 11.11%. All that rage for a 4.7% increased chance to lose a terminator after killing a 216 points model? I'd also like to point out that the next weakest monster with death throes has a 33.33% chance to kill a terminator and can kill up to three with lucky dice if it were attacking instead of just dealing mortal wounds.
So, you're basically asking for tyranids to kill more of your expensive models when you die.
The tank of that Ork buggy explodes and takes 3 wounds off your Land Raider, when it had previously been firing Rokkits at it for 2 turns without any result.
Well, first of all ork buggies never explode, and the cheapest thing armed with rokkits that even has the chance to explode into d3 damage is a trukk or a deff dread.
Since no one puts rokkits on a deff dread, let's assume a trukk was shooting your Land Raider instead of just assaulting it to shut off all those guns it has.
The trukk hits on a 5+, wounds on a 4+ and the landraider needs to fail a 4+ save to take 3 damage from the rokkit. The chance of that happening is 8.3%
If the trukk explodes and your land raider is within 6", you need a 6+ followed by a 3 on a d3, so a 5.55% chance for that to happen.
So, while I agree that rokkits should be more powerful, they seem to do a better job at damaging land raiders than any exploding ork vehicles smaller than a battlewagon.
But somehow those chunks unable to dent titan's armour intentionally then finds it as easy a# paper. Armour designed to protect against weapons used to level city blocks provide no help
Which weapon is unable to dent a titan's armor in 8th? On a more serious note, almost every model with an explosion rule is a lot more likely to damage titans through combat or melee than through explosions.
"On a 6, every unit in a 6" radius suffers 2d6 wounds" and let models take an armor save. This way no-armor models will get blasted and models with a crazy thick armor will get a chance to survive.
2d6 wounds does an average of two wounds to a unit with 3+ saves, exactly as much as the current rule does. Slightly less to terminators and more to models with high toughness but bad saves. A T8 4+ battlewagon would take more damage from your rule than a T3 3+ eldar aspect warrior.
So you want to roll five times as many dice for the same effect? Just because you want armies with less armor to suffer more casualties?
Nope. You're dead wrong. I had 3 unhurt 5 man asm squads with 2x plasma pistol each being fodder for 3 unwounded jump libbies. Closer to 600 points. It was bottom of turn 4, and the other 70% of my army had decimated his vehicles from range, and were in my backfield and midfield. I have the jump force get in on a vehicle on his backfield objective. It dies, blows, and takes out 3 asm from each squad and hits each libby for 2 damage. His turn he moves his last working vehicle, a small group of obsec troops, and his token warlord into range to claim the objective. My turn, I kill the obsec troops, then kill the vehicle, it blows, all 3 libbies and all the remaining asm die, his WL lives thanks to being previously unwounded, game ends, he wins by first blood since we both had our own backfield objectives.
You do realize that chance of rolling two sixes, a total of three 5+ rolls on 2d3 to kill 3x5 ASM and another three 4+ rolls on 2d3 to kill the librarians is a chance of 0.2%? You're only going to have that once every five hundred games you play.
Even if mortal wounds didn't ignore armor, you might as well have fudged all your armor saves with that kind of luck. Plus having three units and three characters within not one, but two exploding vehicles is probably avoidable.
Yes, elite armies are weak, but the one explosion you get in an average game are definitely not the reason for that. This entire thread is a huge overreaction.
In this case mortal wounds are just a simplification to quickly handle rules that do damage in any way. An exploding trukk in 7th required 60+ rolls to resolve on average if it hit just one unit, I'd rather remove my d3 models, thank you.
Jidmah wrote: So, is this thread about rather wanting to roll 20 dice to see if you lose a terminator to an exploding vehicle rather than two?
Number hit, their wounds, their save.
Need not be 20.
M.
That would still be a minimum 12, assuming 5 terminators, that no other unit is hit, and that the terminators don't have any kind of FNP.
Also, some suggestions from this thread for explosion rules go way beyond 20.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Go play a couple of games of sigmar with armies rocking a consistent 40-60 mortal wounds per turn. Get used to the idea, and then come back. It'll give people perspective.
This is what I think when people complain about mortal wounds in Warhammer 40k I can understand the problem with Smite Spam, but besides that, theres not really mortal wound spam in the game as you can do it on AoS.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Nope. You're dead wrong. I had 3 unhurt 5 man asm squads with 2x plasma pistol each being fodder for 3 unwounded jump libbies. Closer to 600 points. It was bottom of turn 4, and the other 70% of my army had decimated his vehicles from range, and were in my backfield and midfield. I have the jump force get in on a vehicle on his backfield objective. It dies, blows, and takes out 3 asm from each squad and hits each libby for 2 damage. His turn he moves his last working vehicle, a small group of obsec troops, and his token warlord into range to claim the objective. My turn, I kill the obsec troops, then kill the vehicle, it blows, all 3 libbies and all the remaining asm die, his WL lives thanks to being previously unwounded, game ends, he wins by first blood since we both had our own backfield objectives.
You do realize that chance of rolling two sixes, a total of three 5+ rolls on 2d3 to kill 3x5 ASM and another three 4+ rolls on 2d3 to kill the librarians is a chance of 0.2%? You're only going to have that once every five hundred games you play.
Even if mortal wounds didn't ignore armor, you might as well have fudged all your armor saves with that kind of luck.
I'm well aware of the odds thank you. I am famous around here for getting hit by odds that bad and worse consistently. I've lost several full health baron court knights to overwatch in 7e, had an opponent take over 80 2+ saves against me in a game and never fail a single one, haven't seized initiative in over two years, have never had guilliman get back up, and had 7e Dante die in combat to three shoota boys from full health while on the charge. And then of course there was this occurrence, which was the talk of that event.
Plus having three units and three characters within not one, but two exploding vehicles is probably avoidable.
Not in that game it wasn't. I know people on the internet won't believe it, but the people actually there, including the judge, looked over the table in awe as the explosions happened to decide the game, and everyone agreed the only way to not be in the explosion ranges would've been to not be near the objective and lose the game without even trying for it. I think I'd rather take the ~99% chance of winning over 0 any day thanks. Our group jokes a lot about how people who aren't here to personally witness my rolls wouldn't believe or even be able to grasp how much of a beating the laws of probability take when I pick up dice.
My biggest issue is that I want to roll something before all my dudes die. I hate mortal wounds, and think they should be restricted to things that are similar in scale to Strength D from yesteryear. (And before they started deciding to hand it to a bunch of small eldar models.) If I pay the points for elite guys whose biggest ability is durability, I feel kind of cheated when it doesn't apply at all.
I don't mind the vehicles exploding and killing dudes, but it generally shouldn't be mortal wounds so I can have a damn roll of some kind.
hits and those were generally considered bad.
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20000+ points
